Post-Game Talk: |Pens vs Habs | Loss | Pathetic

[ChaosAgent]

I don't think much of the Brotherhood of NHL Coaches™ whatsoever and think with a lot of coaches, you see guys who see themselves in these 4th line grinders so they develop a fondness. But the jump from "Sullivan is a flawed coach way past his expiration date" to "Sullivan is a xenophobic dickhead who reviles Euros and has tanked Kap's game because of bigotry" is just some exceptional, first ballot hall of fame shit for HFboards.

The neverending debate since I've started following hockey is whether an out-of-form top-6 talent, or an enigmatic top-6 talent, is the better bottom-6 player than some boring NA mucker/grinder.

The more I watch the more I'm convinced that the Brotherhood of Coaches are right: the boring NA plug is more effective. Maybe this is just personal preference, but this is why I'm so negative on the skill guys when they aren't producing. Modern NHL only rewards risk-taking, or trying to make skilled plays, if it converts at a high enough clip. Once you get below that you're better off with some NPC character such as Aston-Reese. Kap is an unskilled skill/speed guy, a hindrance offensively, but at least he gives it 100% defensively which is cool.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The neverending debate since I've started following hockey is whether an out-of-form top-6 talent, or an enigmatic top-6 talent, is the better bottom-6 player than some boring NA mucker/grinder.

The more I watch the more I'm convinced that the Brotherhood of Coaches are right: the boring NA plug is more effective. Maybe this is just personal preference, but this is why I'm so negative on the skill guys when they aren't producing. Modern NHL only rewards risk-taking, or trying to make skilled plays, if it converts at a high enough clip. Once you get below that you're better off with some NPC character such as Aston-Reese. Kap is an unskilled skill/speed guy, a hindrance offensively, but at least he gives it 100% defensively which is cool.

I'm past the point of caring enough to try and be a student of the game or whatever. I'd rather watch this team lose 7-6 for 82 games a year than plod through the season making the playoffs on a philosophy of risk aversion and ZAR-style guys dictating/slowing down the play.

But you're undoubtedly right in that it's effective to be risk averse and boring. It's a big reason I want the next coach (when Sully's gone in 5 years) to be somebody none of us have ever heard of, who has yet to be tempered in the kiln of NHL coaching, where all the excitement, flow and creativity is hammered out of 'em already.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm past the point of caring enough to try and be a student of the game or whatever. I'd rather watch this team lose 7-6 for 82 games a year than plod through the season making the playoffs on a philosophy of risk aversion and ZAR-style guys dictating/slowing down the play.

There was a fun, exciting team on the rink last night.

It just wasn't us.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Zucker's issue was always his inability to stay healthy. He never had time to settle into a role as he was always either dealing with a nagging injury, completely on the shelf with an injury, or recently returning from injury. I'm still not entirely sold that his injury issues are behind him or that he'll keep up his impressive production, but he was never as bad as Kap's been for a full season-plus. You keep saying Zucker's only playing and/or trying hard because he has a contract on the line. What was Kap's excuse last year?

I disagree, while many that defended him said just this or even his line-mates ability to stay healthy, Most of the forum just blasted him every game even when he did do something solid they never acknowledged it. It was a pile on and he was a whipping boy.

People were so quick to target each and every negative thing he did and ignored the positives.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

There was a fun, exciting team on the rink last night.

It just wasn't us.

Yeah, I mean, the loss was predictable and sucks from the standpoint of wanting the team to make the playoffs. But it was an entertaining game from the 3rd onward. Pretty much a slog through the first two periods though.

I'd prefer the entertainment come from the Penguins side, but as long as there's some excitement, it's whatever. This team's window closed when they stayed the course after they biffed the Habs play-in. It's all just background noise and idle watching until the page turns on this chapter and we can follow a rebuild, imo.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Kapanen needs to produce right? Kapanen produces at a better clip than any of our other bottom six forwards.

If we are going to hold Kapanen accountable then do it with the other bottom six forwards. Do it with Heinen, Archibald, etc.

This is my whole point. Sullivan is coaching the bottom six to be how Sullivan wants it to be and it is failing miserably as it relatively has the last few years. Kapanen is not getting a fair shake because he isn't assimilating to a failing coach's system.

Do I think Kapanen suddenly becomes a 50-60 pt guy? No.

But he's proven he is a 30+ pt middle six guy. He's proven that here. He's proven that in the playoffs here and still Mike Sullivan scratches him for fringe AHLers in Hallander or lesser skilled players who play the PK and muck up the corners like Poehling.

That's on Sullivan for not finding a fit for a player who does produce. And it's not like those bottom six forwards in Archibald, Poehling, Carter, and Heinen haven't had their fair share of games where they are directly impacting the results by not connecting on a goal, not competing on the PK, etc. It's just one of them is a European that gets a little too fancy so he must immediately be scratched. It's just typica Sullysma bullshit at this point.

I'm not a huge Kapanen fan. But he is an NHLer and he does have a role on this team over some loser like Archibald.

I dont get your beef with Archibald, hes playing 10 mins a night and is playing solid hockey. He unfortunately is our only player on the current roster who has any type of sandpaper to his game.

Targeting Josh Archibald looks pretty foolish if you ask me. Hes been more good than bad this season and would be one of the last guys I am calling out. The one main reason he has a roster spot on this team is his game is different than anyone elses. If we had a guy with some skill that had any resemblance of some toughness they would probably have the spot but no one does.

 

[Andy99]

Pens currently rank 14th overall in team save percentage at all strengths. It's slightly better than middle of the pack. It's currently better than Tampa, Rangers and Carolina, three teams who are supposed to be better than us by far in nets. It's better than Seattle and New Jersey, two teams who are way ahead of us in the standings.

It isn't a strength, but it's hardly the #1 reason for the Pens' struggles.

I blame the goaltending because with who our stars are, and how they want to play, and the history of the Pens over the Sid era as far as lax puck management and attention to detail defensively, we never go anywhere with average goaltending…only Cups were in years we got top tier goaltending…with our core as old as they are, average goaltending is not going to get us into the POs even

 

[Gurglesons]

I blame the goaltending because with who our stars are, and how they want to play, and the history of the Pens over the Sid era as far as lax puck management and attention to detail defensively, we never go anywhere with average goaltending…only Cups were in years we got top tier goaltending…with our core as old as they are, average goaltending is not going to get us into the POs even

Fleury was not top tier in 2009. Granted we don't have god mode Sid and Geno.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Have you watched Rakell's usage by Sullivan this year?




You are looking at the points and not the skill set and what allows Kapanen to succeed. Kapanen and Rakell are east west players. Sullivan hates that shit. Malkin is the only one who gets away with it on the roster and even he is way more north south then the typical Euro.

I will ignore the points and any metrics, and go just by the eye test.

1. Kapanen is more prone to turnovers than Rakell. Either through fumbled passes, bad decisions, or lost possessions while deking, Kapanen isn't as strong with the puck.
2. Rakell is more willing to shoot the puck. We know Kapanen has a good shot. We also know how many times he's entered the zone and pulled up instead of driving to the net and getting a shot off.
3. Rakell is better along the boards. He wins more puck battles and is harder to knock off the puck while protecting it.
4. Rakell goes to the front of the net more and is more effective when stationed there.
5. Rakell understands spacing and play away from the puck better. How many plays has Kapanen made where he got into position for a redirection, tip, one-timer, anything? Most of his goals or first assists seem to come with him already in possession of the puck rather than reacting to a rapidly unfolding play.

I have defended Kapanen for a long time. I was excited when the Penguins reacquired him. He has made his own bed here. He had ample opportunity last year in the first half of the season. He was a top six player and on the first power play. He didn't produce. He's been largely invisible again this year.

 

[Andy99]

Fleury was not top tier in 2009. Granted we don't have god mode Sid and Geno.

Ok, not top tier but MAF’s .912 save % that season would be well above average now…lol

 

[Gurglesons]

I will ignore the points and any metrics, and go just by the eye test.

1. Kapanen is more prone to turnovers than Rakell. Either through fumbled passes, bad decisions, or lost possessions while deking, Kapanen isn't as strong with the puck.
2. Rakell is more willing to shoot the puck. We know Kapanen has a good shot. We also know how many times he's entered the zone and pulled up instead of driving to the net and getting a shot off.
3. Rakell is better along the boards. He wins more puck battles and is harder to knock off the puck while protecting it.
4. Rakell goes to the front of the net more and is more effective when stationed there.
5. Rakell understands spacing and play away from the puck better. How many plays has Kapanen made where he got into position for a redirection, tip, one-timer, anything? Most of his goals or first assists seem to come with him already in possession of the puck rather than reacting to a rapidly unfolding play.

I have defended Kapanen for a long time. I was excited when the Penguins reacquired him. He has made his own bed here. He had ample opportunity last year in the first half of the season. He was a top six player and on the first power play. He didn't produce. He's been largely invisible again this year.

Let's see where we are if Sullivan is our coach with Rakell in a year.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I will ignore the points and any metrics, and go just by the eye test.

1. Kapanen is more prone to turnovers than Rakell. Either through fumbled passes, bad decisions, or lost possessions while deking, Kapanen isn't as strong with the puck.
2. Rakell is more willing to shoot the puck. We know Kapanen has a good shot. We also know how many times he's entered the zone and pulled up instead of driving to the net and getting a shot off.
3. Rakell is better along the boards. He wins more puck battles and is harder to knock off the puck while protecting it.
4. Rakell goes to the front of the net more and is more effective when stationed there.
5. Rakell understands spacing and play away from the puck better. How many plays has Kapanen made where he got into position for a redirection, tip, one-timer, anything? Most of his goals or first assists seem to come with him already in possession of the puck rather than reacting to a rapidly unfolding play.

I have defended Kapanen for a long time. I was excited when the Penguins reacquired him. He has made his own bed here. He had ample opportunity last year in the first half of the season. He was a top six player and on the first power play. He didn't produce. He's been largely invisible again this year.

I agree with everything here but I will say this. Kapanen has dealt with the same line fumbling and injured line-mates that Zucker has. Anytime he has looked good there was consistency of linemates, hes looked bad with injures to line mates or juggling.

Do I think that Kapanen will magically turn into a 25g 50-60 point player with some consistency or opportunity? No, but I do think its worth a shot to try him on an L1 now or give him some consistent line-mates for a stretch.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Let's see where we are if Sullivan is our coach with Rakell in a year.

Rakell is on pace for 30 goals even with his current usage. I have a feeling Sullivan might be OK with that.

 

[Pem]

They were faster and more resilient. Outshot the hell out of us, too.

L1 is awful.
L2 is incredible.
Bottom 6 is meh.

PP1 is worse than awful.
PK gives up too many chances.

I really think we're a coaching change away from looking much better, but I doubt that happens.

Considering the avg age of our players faster is a given.

 

[Gurglesons]

Rakell is on pace for 30 goals even with his current usage. I have a feeling Sullivan might be OK with that.

I mean you think Sullivan is basically infallible so no surprises there.

Let's take a look at what Sullivan is actually doing with his usage....

Rickard Rakell 2022-23 Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Gamelogs for Rickard Rakell for 2022-23

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I mean you think Sullivan is basically infallible so no surprises there.

Let's take a look at what Sullivan is actually doing with his usage....

Rickard Rakell 2022-23 Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Gamelogs for Rickard Rakell for 2022-23

www.hockey-reference.com

His usage is pretty straightforward. He was with Sid to start the season so he played more, just like Sid's line always does.

That stayed the same until Guentzel and Zucker came back for the Seattle game. From there, his usage has been pretty much on par with Zucker's as the second line wingers.

I'd like it to be a bit more, because I'd like Rakell to be on the power play in place of Rust and I'd like Malkin's line to play more overall and Crosby's line to play a little less.

But it's not a concern. The only forwards with more ice time than him against the Capitals were Crosby, Guentzel, Rust, Malkin and Zucker (by 16 seconds). McGinn and Carter played more than him against Toronto, but the Penguins had to kill three penalties and had just one power play.

Same deal against Montreal. Penguins took four penalties before the 4-on-4, 4-on-3, 3-on-3 craziness in the third. And even then, Carter was the only non-top six forward to have more ice time than Rakell.

You're trying to find a trend and it's not there.

 

[ChaosAgent]

"Kap is like Rakell."

"Oh great, so he developed some calmness, intelligence and vision to his game? And an ability to win a battle once-in-ever?"

"No, he's a Euro who could be ok-ish but has been slowly and deliberately destroyed psychologically under the cruel tutelage of tyrant-king Bahston Boi Michael Sullivan."

 

[Gurglesons]

His usage is pretty straightforward. He was with Sid to start the season so he played more, just like Sid's line always does.

That stayed the same until Guentzel and Zucker came back for the Seattle game. From there, his usage has been pretty much on par with Zucker's as the second line wingers.

I'd like it to be a bit more, because I'd like Rakell to be on the power play in place of Rust and I'd like Malkin's line to play more overall and Crosby's line to play a little less.

But it's not a concern. The only forwards with more ice time than him against the Capitals were Crosby, Guentzel, Rust, Malkin and Zucker (by 16 seconds). McGinn and Carter played more than him against Toronto, but the Penguins had to kill three penalties and had just one power play.

Same deal against Montreal. Penguins took four penalties before the 4-on-4, 4-on-3, 3-on-3 craziness in the third. And even then, Carter was the only non-top six forward to have more ice time than Rakell.

You're trying to find a trend and it's not there.

There is a trend. Rakell is producing and regular playing 2-3 minutes less than Rust at 5v5.

As I said let's see what happens this time next year.

"Kap is like Rakell."

"Oh great, so he developed some calmness, intelligence and vision to his game? And an ability to win a battle once-in-ever?"

"No, he's a Euro who could be ok-ish but has been slowly and deliberately destroyed psychologically under the cruel tutelage of tyrant-king Bahston Boi Michael Sullivan."

Nobody has ever compared Kapanen and Rakell in terms of on ice product.

I'm not even a huge fan of Kapanen. Our coach just sucks and loves dropping the skilled European players out of the roster first.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I dunno what I'm supposed to be lookin' at. Rakell's averaging 17:24 TOI through 15 games, and over the past 491 games in the NHL, he's averaged 17:54 TOI.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Zucker's forechecking is a thing of beauty, makes you wonder what might have been had he been healthier in the previous few seasons. It also makes you wonder why nobody on L1 is doing anything even remotely similar.

I like Contract Zucker. Too bad he’s retiring at the end of this season.

 

[ChaosAgent]

There is a trend. Rakell is producing and regular playing 2-3 minutes less than Rust at 5v5.

As I said let's see what happens this time next year.

Who is going to further knock Rakell down the depth chart. Archibald? Puust...oh wait Europe.

 

[Gurglesons]

Who is going to further knock Rakell down the depth chart. Archibald? Puust...oh wait Europe.

Mike Sullivan.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Mike Sullivan.

Alright. Just save this for the 2 games that Sam Poulin or Poehling or whoever gets hot and we decide to put Rakell with him in February 2024. Or Sid/Geno is returning from injury and ice time is scrambled. Then you can say you were right.

If Rakell is bumped down for Kapanen, doesn't count tho.

 

[Gurglesons]

Alright. Just save this for the 2 games that Sam Poulin or Poehling or whoever gets hot and we decide to put Rakell with him in February 2024. Or Sid/Geno is returning from injury and ice time is scrambled. Then you can say you were right.

If Rakell is bumped down for Kapanen, doesn't count tho.

If this front office doesn't move Kapanen this week they are absolutely moronic.

We have a coach that isn't willing to work with him anymore.

We need cap space. And I'm sure there is a deal where we don't have to pay assets to get out of him. Just pull the trigger already. It's over.

 

[ChaosAgent]

If this front office doesn't move Kapanen this week they are absolutely moronic.

We have a coach that isn't willing to work with him anymore.

We need cap space. And I'm sure there is a deal where we don't have to pay assets to get out of him. Just pull the trigger already. It's over.

I missed the memo that the Kap situation was so urgent/dire.

The reality is, no one cares about him anymore. He'll play on this team like Chad Ruhwedel or Drake Caggiula or Josh Archibald, but he ain't "enigmatic" any more. He's just bleh. That said, the org has more important things to worry about than finding the right home for Galchenyuk. I'm sure Hextall will awake from his sleep and pick up the call if another org dials about Kapanen.