Post-Game Talk: |Pens vs Habs | Loss | Pathetic

[HandshakeLine]

I was calling to trade instead of re-sign Rust too. But I'm an eejit.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I was calling to trade instead of re-sign Rust too. But I'm an eejit.

I was fully onboard moving on from Rust for the reasons we're seeing. The combination of Rust mailing it in and doing his best Phil Kessel impression (with a fraction of the ability of Kessel) and Sullivan playing him like he's prime Jagr was a recipe for disaster.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

But what is he doing that is harder than what the ACs are? That is harder than what the players are doing?

That's what I mean. Give me some concrete examples of Sullivan staying up to reformulate the system or working with players or whatever. I'm just bemused as to how he's got the hardest job on the team. So he doesn't have the same off-days. Great. What is he doing and how is that showing up here? And how is that different than the ACs?

I'd be happy just to know what exactly the Head Coach's responsibilities are because lord knows, he doesn't have anything to do with the special teams, the lineup, the execution, or losing it seems.

Well I know he watches all the games twice, in his office, at home or in hotels. This is something he's mentioned before.
He has to pause them frequently, write notes, take time stamps and formulate ideas for the next practice, video session or coaches meeting. He has to prepare the material. That's time consuming.
Or in the case of packed stretches like we've had recently, it's something he does in the morning after travel, before the 2nd of a B2B. This entails a lot of work on off-days or time for everyone else.
He needs to focus on all aspects of the game, whereas assistants like Reirden and Vellucci only needs to watch the special teams and the contingent of players they're overseeing.

Sullivan needs to meet with Hextall before/after all practices and grade players, and discuss solutions moving forward. So there's this pressure of being immediately accountable for recent results and players under your command, with your boss staring at you from across the table. It's not easy to deal with when things are going poorly. We've seen this done with Bylsma and Shero in the behind the scenes documentaries.

The human aspect is one of the hardest things. Lineup decisions. Sullivan is the one that takes all the negative emotions from unsatisfied players, like with demoting someone to Wilkes. He needs to broach sensitive topics, and play sports psychologist/father too. Fortunately we have a fairly mature, professional team that don't give him too much grief. This Kap situation recently must have been tough though, as was the nightmare that is training camp cuts. You gotta inform players that played well to take a hike until there's injuries, and they're not gonna be happy about it. Like I'm sure a veteran like Caggiula who did great in camp was in the dumps. Or what about how Smith felt after killing it?

Managing minutes is a pain in the ass every game that Reirden and Vellucci don't really have to do. He needs to be prepared for every shift change. A lot of pressure there to keep things balanced.

He's in charge of practice planning, and has to keep things fresh and fun to keep the players invested. It's often a glum atmosphere after losses, which makes his job harder. He needs to keep a lot of his anger in check too, when frustrated with certain players. His capacity for patience is actually pretty commendable. He rarely loses it.

Media obligations is a bitch. He needs to explain his decisions before and after every game and practice. A lot of media people take too many liberties with their questions and arrogance, and they're asked at points when the coach is vulnerable. Would you wanna deal with Rossi, Kovacevic and Yohe, telling you what's f***ed up with your team?
Sullivan has actually handled them admirably, to the point where they all respect him.
How many interviews do Reirden and Vellucci take annually?

What else? There's the calls he takes from JD Forrest, the events he needs to attend, the road trip excursions he needs to plan, the long term workload plan for goalies...

I'm sure there's many things I haven't mentioned. The players were asked this year if they'd rather be a HC or GM after they retire. 100% of them said GM.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'd be happy just to know what exactly the Head Coach's responsibilities are because lord knows, he doesn't have anything to do with the special teams, the lineup, the execution, or losing it seems.

Sullivan's turned into that guy who gets all the praise for everything that the team does well, but apparently isn't in charge of the areas the team is struggling mightily with.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I've been pretty lukewarm about Rust since it's become obvious the last however long that GCR is set in stone. It severely limits how you can utilize your roster and Rust. It isn't that I think Rust "sucks" it's that he's not worth being a 5+ million dollar third wheel, here. Especially if he's content to just float around pretending he's a sniper. And I guess I've just never seen him as a straw that stirs the drink so... eh. He came in under market value. I guess that's nice.

Re: Raks... he's a good defensive player and what I'd call a "facilitator" on wing. Meaning that he's not gonna score a ton or show up in box scores as often but he does enough on a scoring line to help move the play along effectively enough. And luckily Malkin and Zucker are playing well enough at this time to take care of the rest. That isn't to say I dislike Raks. Just that he's another third wheel kind of guy. But hey... probably one of their best forwards this year so he's doing something right.

That's pretty much how I feel about Rakell. We all rolled our eyes for years at all the bullshit "swiss army knife" talk about nondescript nobodies on this team, but Rakell actually fits the bill imo. He's a smart player who is good away from the puck, on the forecheck, he's skilled enough to chip in offensively and get pucks to the drivers on whatever line he's on, he uses his size well enough in the corners, along the boards and around the net. Dude's just a solid player, if unexceptional in any real way. Like you said, he's a guy who keeps things working, as opposed to really being the driving force. I think he'd be a genuine asset on any line in the top-9, but on a team as old and floundering as this one, I think he's best served making sure either Sid or Geno are clicking.

My stance is: Sid and Jake are a shitshow defensively and neither is working their asses off on any given shift. Keeping Rust there, who has all the same flaws, is just caving that line and for a trio of lazy, offense-only guys, you're not getting offensive production or even pressure. They've got like, what, 3 SOG between the three of them at ES throughout the past three games? Something absolutely ridiculously bad like that. Put Rakell or Zucker up there. If it doesn't work, you can still fall back on what is working with Zucker-Geno-Rakell.

But, y'know how it goes. I don't need to tell you what the Mr. Infallible standing behind the bench feels about these ideas.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That's pretty much how I feel about Rakell. We all rolled our eyes for years at all the bullshit "swiss army knife" talk about nondescript nobodies on this team, but Rakell actually fits the bill imo. He's a smart player who is good away from the puck, on the forecheck, he's skilled enough to chip in offensively and get pucks to the drivers on whatever line he's on, he uses his size well enough in the corners, along the boards and around the net. Dude's just a solid player, if unexceptional in any real way. Like you said, he's a guy who keeps things working, as opposed to really being the driving force. I think he'd be a genuine asset on any line in the top-9, but on a team as old and floundering as this one, I think he's best served making sure either Sid or Geno are clicking.

My stance is: Sid and Jake are a shitshow defensively and neither is working their asses off on any given shift. Keeping Rust there, who has all the same flaws, is just caving that line and for a trio of lazy, offense-only guys, you're not getting offensive production or even pressure. They've got like, what, 3 SOG between the three of them at ES throughout the past three games? Something absolutely ridiculously bad like that. Put Rakell or Zucker up there. If it doesn't work, you can still fall back on what is working with Zucker-Geno-Rakell.

But, y'know how it goes. I don't need to tell you what the Mr. Infallible standing behind the bench feels about these ideas.

Maybe it's not Sullivan's fault about the lines since one of the ACs is in charge of the forwards and one is in charge of the defense pairings.

It seems like Sullivan doesn't actually do anything. It's the ACs running the show!

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I think part of the problem with our PP when they get set up is nobody really has the ability to skate around with the puck and attack the pk. Or if they do, they aren't doing it.

I really liked watching Toronto's powerplay the other day where Nylander and Matthews etc were always in motion and threatening to skate towards the net. Jagr used to be a master of that as well where he'd walk the puck off the half wall and attack the net if teams didn't get on him.

With our PP, they can all move the puck well but they're all staying completely stationary on the perimeter. They actually have made somewhat of an effort to shoot more the past few games, but the movement still sucks. You have to get some motion going there to tire pks out and open up seams.

Yeah the lack of legs to buy space is a huge problem right now. Letang isn't roving. Sid isn't using his edge-work like normal. Rust is making hope plays from stationary positions instead of skating out of trouble with puck protection like he's capable of doing.
It's like everyone wants to get all the spoils from the PP, putting in the least amount of effort possible. Basically like tired old men.

Bringing in a guy like Smith would help in that regard. Hell, I wouldn't be hesitant at all to use POJ at this point either.
And it's annoying that Zucker's not on PP1 yet. Where's the accountability? What does a guy have to do? He's probably been our best 5v5 player when in, and has been solid defensively as well.

Use him as the net front or right wall.

Maybe it's not Sullivan's fault about the lines since one of the ACs is in charge of the forwards and one is in charge of the defense pairings.

It seems like Sullivan doesn't actually do anything. It's the ACs running the show!

"NOOOOOO! I WANNA BLAME ONE GUY FOR EVERYTHING AFTER EVERY LOSS!! STOP TELLING ME OTHER STAFF EXISTS!!"

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the big gap here is that you still feel like there's something left to get out of Kap, and I think he's pretty much a dude who has exhausted his welcome and has shown himself, over the course of many, many games, to be a mediocre player at best who is struggling mightily with confidence issues in an ever-worsening display of ineptitude.

I'm not trying to go to bat for Sid's feelings, to be clear. I think that's how it works with pretty much every superstar, face of the franchise. A big part of coaching is playing babysitter to a bunch of petulant grown men with wild tempers.

A lot of people said we need to pay a 1st to get out of Zucker less than a month ago.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Maybe it's not Sullivan's fault about the lines since one of the ACs is in charge of the forwards and one is in charge of the defense pairings.

It seems like Sullivan doesn't actually do anything. It's the ACs running the show!

I try to keep as neutral as possible because there's a whole buncha shit that goes into the eventual product on the ice. If this team was rockin' a buncha 27 year old superstars and they were struggling miserably, sure. That's probably nearly entirely on coaching, with a good bit of roster makeup from the GM. A team full of dudes over the hill and on retirement deal, with a supporting cast that ain't nearly good enough to pick up the slack? Sully's f***ing up a bunch of stuff, we all agree, but I really don't get the whole "If we fire him, this team's surely gonna be substantially improved over the steady, steep decline we've seen for years and a dogshit nobody like Kap will round the corner into an effective player" stuff.

Like, again, I've been sick and tired of Sully for a long time. I think his infatuation with GCR is aggravating enough to pull your hair out, and the way he runs the team into the ground with TOI distribution for years, resulting in an exhausted and battered club limping into the playoffs--that's f***ing awful. But this team just ain't shit anymore either, imo. We're watching an egomaniac make a bunch of mistakes while coaching a team that's in the extreme twilight of its era. The ending to this chapter was never gonna be pretty, and it arrived far more quickly than a lot of people expected, I guess.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

"NOOOOOO! I WANNA BLAME ONE GUY FOR EVERYTHING AFTER EVERY LOSS!! STOP TELLING ME OTHER STAFF EXISTS!!"

I mean, you're essentially doing the opposite. Any time someone mentions an issue with the club, you're saying it's not Sullivan's fault because he's not in charge of that area (even though as HC he has final say).

So what does he do? I'm legitimately asking you what IS he responsible for since it's not special teams, it's not line combinations, it's not making sure the players show up on time and put in a 60 minute effort. If he can't be blamed for any of that stuff, what is he being paid to actually do?

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah the lack of legs to buy space is a huge problem right now. Letang isn't roving. Sid isn't using his edge-work like normal. Rust is making hope plays from stationary positions instead of skating out of trouble with puck protection like he's capable of doing.
It's like everyone wants to get all the spoils from the PP, putting in the least amount of effort possible. Basically like tired old men.

Bringing in a guy like Smith would help in that regard. Hell, I wouldn't be hesitant at all to use POJ at this point either.
And it's annoying that Zucker's not on PP1 yet. Where's the accountability? What does a guy have to do? He's probably been our best 5v5 player when in, and has been solid defensively as well.

Use him as the net front or right wall.


"NOOOOOO! I WANNA BLAME ONE GUY FOR EVERYTHING AFTER EVERY LOSS!! STOP TELLING ME OTHER STAFF EXISTS!!"

Sullivan is the head coach and we have no idea what he actually is responsible for. Regardless, he’s not coaching and he’s not allowing his assistant’s to coach. Whoever is doing it the blame lies on Sullivan. And none of us who want Sullivan gone give a shit about Velluci or Reirden sticking around either.

I mean, you're essentially doing the opposite. Any time someone mentions an issue with the club, you're saying it's not Sullivan's fault because he's not in charge of that area (even though as HC he has final say).

So what does he do? I'm legitimately asking you what IS he responsible for since it's not special teams, it's not line combinations, it's not making sure the players show up on time and put in a 60 minute effort. If he can't be blamed for any of that stuff, what is he being paid to actually do?

 

[Turin]

Just noticed that Sid is now barely a ppg. In a season where everybody and their mom is a ppg, and that’s after his torrid start. Thanks PP and Sully.

 

[eXile3]

Sullivan is the head coach and we have no idea what he actually is responsible for. Regardless, he’s not coaching and he’s not allowing his assistant’s to coach. Whoever is doing it the blame lies on Sullivan. And none of us who want Sullivan gone give a shit about Velluci or Reirden sticking around either.


View attachment 607623

I completely forgot about Velluci. He was next man up after Sully because he won a Calder in the AHL. Now he’s just part of the sinking ship.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I mean, you're essentially doing the opposite. Any time someone mentions an issue with the club, you're saying it's not Sullivan's fault because he's not in charge of that area (even though as HC he has final say).

I've been critical of Sully this year?
But sure, take one instance and project it onto everything. It's one of this board's many lazy, boring habits. Suddenly I'm Sully's #1 defender today apparently.

Sorry that I'm attempting to weigh things fairly after a loss. I know it's frowned upon here.

So what does he do? I'm legitimately asking you what IS he responsible for since it's not special teams, it's not line combinations, it's not making sure the players show up on time and put in a 60 minute effort. If he can't be blamed for any of that stuff, what is he being paid to actually do?

Already answered this question from Handshake. Scroll up.

He can be blamed for some things. Blaming him for everything is moronic.
If Jarry played like a proper starter this year then you're probably not whinging about anything today. Bottom line.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I've been critical of Sully this year?
But sure, take one instance and project it onto everything. It's one of this board's many lazy, boring habits. Suddenly I'm Sully's #1 defender today apparently.

Sorry that I'm attempting to weigh things fairly after a loss. I know it's frowned upon here.

I'm talking about you defending him with regards to a shitty PP and questionable PP personnel. I'm not blaming him for EVERYTHING wrong with the club -- speaking of lazy, boring habits like strawman arguments - I'm disputing this idea that he has zero fault or blame with regards to Rust being on the PP or the PP's ineffectiveness because you think it's all on the AC who runs it.

Already answered this question from Handshake. Scroll up.

He can be blamed for some things. Blaming him for everything is moronic.
If Jarry played like a proper starter this year then you're probably not whinging about anything today. Bottom line.

Again this seems like a dubious argument. If only Jarry was playing well our PP woes and Rust being overplayed wouldn't be an issue. I mean, Jarry generally was fine last night, at least early on. That didn't help the fact Sullivan refused to remove Rust from Crosby's line. And the PP has been a running joke for the past 10-ish games, again nothing to do with Jarry.

It also ignores the fact that DeSmith's been putting up better numbers yet the same issues persist in his starts. He's got 2 wins in 6 starts despite having very solid numbers. Why? Because the same issues with the rest of the club plague them no matter how well the goalie plays.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Rust being on the PP or the PP's ineffectiveness because you think it's all on the AC who runs it.

You obviously don't know what I think one iota, so could you please stop making shit up like BladesofSteel if you're unwilling to read my posts?
I've wanted Rakell, Zucker and Smith on the 1st unit at different points. Would be cool with Crosby on the left wall and Malkin on the right wall too.
Hell, Heinen might help too.

Jarry generally was fine last night,

Nope. Two of those goals were fully preventable by him.
Yeah the defense was shit but that happens in this league and the goalie needs to give the team a chance. Other goalies do this, like Carter Hart this year.
Jarry did this last year. He's been between .857 and 893 five starts in a row, and deserves some criticism. It's lost us points.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

A lot of people said we need to pay a 1st to get out of Zucker less than a month ago.

People wanted to buy out Zucker too. What's your point?

Zucker's issue was always his inability to stay healthy. He never had time to settle into a role as he was always either dealing with a nagging injury, completely on the shelf with an injury, or recently returning from injury. I'm still not entirely sold that his injury issues are behind him or that he'll keep up his impressive production, but he was never as bad as Kap's been for a full season-plus. You keep saying Zucker's only playing and/or trying hard because he has a contract on the line. What was Kap's excuse last year?

This is such a weird contrarian/devil's advocate approach to the Kap situation--refusing any possibility that maybe he's just, in the end. a mediocre or downright bad player who has been playing poorly for a calendar year. It's like you're arguing just to argue. I'm not sure you actually genuinely believe any of the stuff you're saying.

We agree on pretty much everything, Sullivan is a coach years beyond his expiration date. We agree that Kap's underperforming and dumping him is the best course of action. The difference is that I don't think Sullivan's eroded the game of some effective player, I think Kap was always mediocre at best and just isn't getting those hot streaks anymore. You're near-obsession with Sully lately and the way you just kinda default to "Sully bad, he's responsible for everything" and I think it lacks a whole lot of the nuance you were referring to a few weeks ago.

The most likely reality here is that this team's got a coach who won't do Kap any favors, and a player who is giving his coach absolutely zero reason to. Plenty of fault on both sides.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not sure I can take anyone seriously that is blame Jarry for our season this year.

Our # 1 problem is Sullivan. #2,3,4 are GCR, Dumo-Letang, and the PP which are all on Sullivan.

 

[Pancakes]

Not sure I can take anyone seriously that is blame Jarry for our season this year.

Our # 1 problem is Sullivan. #2,3,4 are GCR, Dumo-Letang, and the PP which are all on Sullivan.

I agree those things are our biggest problems, but Jarry is rocking a 900 save percentage. That's pretty bad.

 

[BigEezyE22]

Well I know he watches all the games twice, in his office, at home or in hotels. This is something he's mentioned before.
He has to pause them frequently, write notes, take time stamps and formulate ideas for the next practice, video session or coaches meeting. He has to prepare the material. That's time consuming.
Or in the case of packed stretches like we've had recently, it's something he does in the morning after travel, before the 2nd of a B2B. This entails a lot of work on off-days or time for everyone else.
He needs to focus on all aspects of the game, whereas assistants like Reirden and Vellucci only needs to watch the special teams and the contingent of players they're overseeing.

Sullivan needs to meet with Hextall before/after all practices and grade players, and discuss solutions moving forward. So there's this pressure of being immediately accountable for recent results and players under your command, with your boss staring at you from across the table. It's not easy to deal with when things are going poorly. We've seen this done with Bylsma and Shero in the behind the scenes documentaries.

The human aspect is one of the hardest things. Lineup decisions. Sullivan is the one that takes all the negative emotions from unsatisfied players, like with demoting someone to Wilkes. He needs to broach sensitive topics, and play sports psychologist/father too. Fortunately we have a fairly mature, professional team that don't give him too much grief. This Kap situation recently must have been tough though, as was the nightmare that is training camp cuts. You gotta inform players that played well to take a hike until there's injuries, and they're not gonna be happy about it. Like I'm sure a veteran like Caggiula who did great in camp was in the dumps. Or what about how Smith felt after killing it?

Managing minutes is a pain in the ass every game that Reirden and Vellucci don't really have to do. He needs to be prepared for every shift change. A lot of pressure there to keep things balanced.

He's in charge of practice planning, and has to keep things fresh and fun to keep the players invested. It's often a glum atmosphere after losses, which makes his job harder. He needs to keep a lot of his anger in check too, when frustrated with certain players. His capacity for patience is actually pretty commendable. He rarely loses it.

Media obligations is a bitch. He needs to explain his decisions before and after every game and practice. A lot of media people take too many liberties with their questions and arrogance, and they're asked at points when the coach is vulnerable. Would you wanna deal with Rossi, Kovacevic and Yohe, telling you what's f***ed up with your team?
Sullivan has actually handled them admirably, to the point where they all respect him.
How many interviews do Reirden and Vellucci take annually?

What else? There's the calls he takes from JD Forrest, the events he needs to attend, the road trip excursions he needs to plan, the long term workload plan for goalies...

I'm sure there's many things I haven't mentioned. The players were asked this year if they'd rather be a HC or GM after they retire. 100% of them said GM.

When was the last time Sullivan was asked a tough question?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Not sure I can take anyone seriously that is blame Jarry for our season this year.

Then don't take me seriously? I don't give a rat's ass Pixies, truly.

That's not even what I said anyway. I've mentioned all the problems with this team in recent days.
If you want to bust out passive-aggressive takeaways from selective reading like the last 5 years, that's your choice.

 

[Pens x]

A lot of people said we need to pay a 1st to get out of Zucker less than a month ago.

That still could be the case.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

When was the last time Sullivan was asked a tough question?

Danny Shirey asked him about changing the D pairs more consistently a week ago. He lost his cool.
I agree our media is pretty reserved, but that's also because Sullivan manages difficult personalities extremely well.
Rossi and Kovacevic are jerks by nature, and Yohe has a lot of anger bubbling under the surface. Sully doesn't fall prey to the petty crap and keeps it professional, and got their respect in return.

Another coach could have easily done worse in this regard.

 

[ChaosAgent]

He can be blamed for some things. Blaming him for everything is moronic.
If Jarry played like a proper starter this year then you're probably not whinging about anything today. Bottom line.

We were outshot 2:1 last night.

We were lucky to even get the point.

Things are not good with this team right now. Can Sid, Letang and Petry turn it around? Sure. Can special teams turn it around? uhhhhhhh it legitimately can't get worse. But I don't see us rattling off a bunch of streaks. We don't have the horses anymore.

That still could be the case.

No. He's played great and now the cap number is ticking down and teams' availability is going up.

I do think we'll need a "change of scenery" guy to offload Kap though. Or just an overpaid plug ala Sceviour which would be fine.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

We were outshot 2:1 last night.

We were lucky to even get the point.

Things are not good with this team right now. Can Sid, Letang and Petry turn it around? Sure. Can special teams turn it around? uhhhhhhh it legitimately can't get worse. But I don't see us rattling off a bunch of streaks. We don't have the horses anymore.

The shot disparity would have been better if we didn't play the previous night.
It's standard to get low shot totals on the road in the 2nd half of these. This even happened when our core was young too.

Petry's improved lately, that OT goal notwithstanding.
I think Sid just needs Rakell, and to establish O-zone time and good vibes early in a game. Unfortunately he seems to prefer Rust.
Letang has made some strides. Some hopeful signs there. I noticed better escapability with zone exits lately. He's skating harder.
A little better from Dumo recently (finally) as well.

The PK's process is better the last 3 or 4 games. Better with blocks, clears and ragging the puck. If they keep that up the goals against will dip.

PP1 looks hopeless as constructed. It may have a surge at some point but I expect their rates to be pretty horrific by year's end. PP2 is carrying pretty hard right now, but that's probably unsustainable.