Post-Game Talk: |Pens vs Habs | Loss | Pathetic

[Andy99]

Not sure I can take anyone seriously that is blame Jarry for our season this year.

Our # 1 problem is Sullivan. #2,3,4 are GCR, Dumo-Letang, and the PP which are all on Sullivan.

Goaltending is co #1 and #2 is the PP

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm less convinced than in recent years, but I still just default to this team being a playoff team until they actually miss (though I maintain the streak ended with the loss to the Habs in 2020). I don't think they've had a legit window to chase Cups since like, 2018, but the Metro is pretty tight year in and year out. It's not a big stretch to assume the talent that's left on this team can pull out a solid string of wins, whereas a team like Philly comes back to earth with a thud (they're already doing so). I think I said in the Around the NHL thread that I expect it to come down to Carolina and NJ in, and four teams fighting for the last two spots; Pittsburgh, NYI, NYR and Washington. I'll just assume the Pens are one of the four to make it until they miss--which, hey, is entirely possible, if not probable. Ain't much of a difference between a perennial 1st round loser and missing entirely.

 

[Gurglesons]

People wanted to buy out Zucker too. What's your point?

Zucker's issue was always his inability to stay healthy. He never had time to settle into a role as he was always either dealing with a nagging injury, completely on the shelf with an injury, or recently returning from injury. I'm still not entirely sold that his injury issues are behind him or that he'll keep up his impressive production, but he was never as bad as Kap's been for a full season-plus. You keep saying Zucker's only playing and/or trying hard because he has a contract on the line. What was Kap's excuse last year?

This is such a weird contrarian/devil's advocate approach to the Kap situation--refusing any possibility that maybe he's just, in the end. a mediocre or downright bad player who has been playing poorly for a calendar year. It's like you're arguing just to argue. I'm not sure you actually genuinely believe any of the stuff you're saying.

We agree on pretty much everything, Sullivan is a coach years beyond his expiration date. We agree that Kap's underperforming and dumping him is the best course of action. The difference is that I don't think Sullivan's eroded the game of some effective player, I think Kap was always mediocre at best and just isn't getting those hot streaks anymore. You're near-obsession with Sully lately and the way you just kinda default to "Sully bad, he's responsible for everything" and I think it lacks a whole lot of the nuance you were referring to a few weeks ago.

The most likely reality here is that this team's got a coach who won't do Kap any favors, and a player who is giving his coach absolutely zero reason to. Plenty of fault on both sides.

Kapanen needs to produce right? Kapanen produces at a better clip than any of our other bottom six forwards.

If we are going to hold Kapanen accountable then do it with the other bottom six forwards. Do it with Heinen, Archibald, etc.

This is my whole point. Sullivan is coaching the bottom six to be how Sullivan wants it to be and it is failing miserably as it relatively has the last few years. Kapanen is not getting a fair shake because he isn't assimilating to a failing coach's system.

Do I think Kapanen suddenly becomes a 50-60 pt guy? No.

But he's proven he is a 30+ pt middle six guy. He's proven that here. He's proven that in the playoffs here and still Mike Sullivan scratches him for fringe AHLers in Hallander or lesser skilled players who play the PK and muck up the corners like Poehling.

That's on Sullivan for not finding a fit for a player who does produce. And it's not like those bottom six forwards in Archibald, Poehling, Carter, and Heinen haven't had their fair share of games where they are directly impacting the results by not connecting on a goal, not competing on the PK, etc. It's just one of them is a European that gets a little too fancy so he must immediately be scratched. It's just typica Sullysma bullshit at this point.

I'm not a huge Kapanen fan. But he is an NHLer and he does have a role on this team over some loser like Archibald.

 

[Gurglesons]

Goaltending is co #1 and #2 is the PP

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Goaltending is co #1 and #2 is the PP

In no particular order:
Goaltending, PP1, PK, 1st pairing D, overall team commitment to defense, stupid penalties, schedule/energy level, loose puck management for full periods and when protecting leads, 3rd line invisiblity for half the games, etc...

GCR's 6GF / 7GA doesn't even crack the top 5 of this team's problems.

 

[Genetic]

I'd love to know if letang's numbers have improved since dumo was demoted.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'd love to know if letang's numbers have improved since dumo was demoted.

I'll never give DK my money. Otherwise I'd post it.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Goaltending is co #1 and #2 is the PP

Pens currently rank 14th overall in team save percentage at all strengths. It's slightly better than middle of the pack. It's currently better than Tampa, Rangers and Carolina, three teams who are supposed to be better than us by far in nets. It's better than Seattle and New Jersey, two teams who are way ahead of us in the standings.

It isn't a strength, but it's hardly the #1 reason for the Pens' struggles.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Kapanen needs to produce right? Kapanen produces at a better clip than any of our other bottom six forwards.

If we are going to hold Kapanen accountable then do it with the other bottom six forwards. Do it with Heinen, Archibald, etc.

This is my whole point. Sullivan is coaching the bottom six to be how Sullivan wants it to be and it is failing miserably as it relatively has the last few years. Kapanen is not getting a fair shake because he isn't assimilating to a failing coach's system.

Do I think Kapanen suddenly becomes a 50-60 pt guy? No.

But he's proven he is a 30+ pt middle six guy. He's proven that here. He's proven that in the playoffs here and still Mike Sullivan scratches him for fringe AHLers in Hallander or lesser skilled players who play the PK and muck up the corners like Poehling.

That's on Sullivan for not finding a fit for a player who does produce. And it's not like those bottom six forwards in Archibald, Poehling, Carter, and Heinen haven't had their fair share of games where they are directly impacting the results by not connecting on a goal, not competing on the PK, etc. It's just one of them is a European that gets a little too fancy so he must immediately be scratched. It's just typica Sullysma bullshit at this point.

I'm not a huge Kapanen fan. But he is an NHLer and he does have a role on this team.

There were 120 players last season who scored between 25 and 35 points--an average of nearly 4 per team. Kap's a mediocre nobody with a recognizable last name that people have this weird sunk-cost fallacy thing with because the Pens took him in the 1st round, then traded their best pick in 15 years to reacquire from a Toronto team who made it known to the entire hockey world that he was their throwaway cap casualty.

We agree that Sully is a deeply flawed coach with aggravating tendencies. But Kap's dogshit, and he's dogshit all on his own. He's been given a shot up and down the lineup and in different roles and he's consistently failed every role for the past calendar year. I don't understand what people expect any coach to do. Nobody, not one guy in this league, is gonna bend over backwards and cater to some forgettable ~30pt dipshit with a squirrel brain. Sully played him alongside Geno and outside of a hot stretch in his first season here, he was largely a dude who made you wanna pull your hair out. He's never gonna work with Sid because he's dumb as a f***ing bag of rocks. It's 3rd line duties or the press box, and honestly, I'd rather run something like McGinn/Heinen-Blueger-Carter as the 3rd line moving forward once Blueger gets back. Gives the team a chance to decide whether Blueger should be kept this summer, eases Carter's responsibility, and Heinen and McGinn are better options than Kap. Kap's not good enough defensively, isn't physical enough, and doesn't bring an offensive touch to a 4th line that Sully just deploys as a sacrificial gruntwork line anyway.

Dude's garbage. Never should've been re-signed, as it was predictable as all hell what we'd be getting and how Sully would use him.

Think we've just about exhausted the whole Kap/Sully thing, tbh.

 

[Gurglesons]

There were 120 players last season who scored between 25 and 35 points--an average of nearly 4 per team. Kap's a mediocre nobody with a recognizable last name that people have this weird sunk-cost fallacy thing with because the Pens took him in the 1st round, then traded their best pick in 15 years to reacquire from a Toronto team who made it known to the entire hockey world that he was their throwaway cap casualty.

We agree that Sully is a deeply flawed coach with aggravating tendencies. But Kap's dogshit, and he's dogshit all on his own. He's been given a shot up and down the lineup and in different roles and he's consistently failed every role for the past calendar year. I don't understand what people expect any coach to do. Nobody, not one guy in this league, is gonna bend over backwards and cater to some forgettable ~30pt dipshit with a squirrel brain. Sully played him alongside Geno and outside of a hot stretch in his first season here, he was largely a dude who made you wanna pull your hair out. He's never gonna work with Sid because he's dumb as a f***ing bag of rocks. It's 3rd line duties or the press box, and honestly, I'd rather run something like McGinn/Heinen-Blueger-Carter as the 3rd line moving forward once Blueger gets back. Gives the team a chance to decide whether Blueger should be kept this summer, eases Carter's responsibility, and Heinen and McGinn are better options than Kap. Kap's not good enough defensively, isn't physical enough, and doesn't bring an offensive touch to a 4th line that Sully just deploys as a sacrificial gruntwork line anyway.

Dude's garbage. Never should've been re-signed, as it was predictable as all hell what we'd be getting and how Sully would use him.

Think we've just about exhausted the whole Kap/Sully thing, tbh.

This is a silly assessment. Everybody loved Kapanen that first season. He was bad last season. He started off well and then the entire team dried up production wise and everyone seems to think it is Kapanen's fault.

He's also fine defensively by the metrics. It's just a bunch of horseshit about a player you don't like. You did the same thing with Zucker all last season and now he's producing so suddenly he is worthwhile.

Also not sure why you are using 25 pt players when Kapanen's worst season in the last 4 is 32.

 

[Gurglesons]

Pens currently rank 14th overall in team save percentage at all strengths. It's slightly better than middle of the pack. It's currently better than Tampa, Rangers and Carolina, three teams who are supposed to be better than us by far in nets. It's better than Seattle and New Jersey, two teams who are way ahead of us in the standings.

It isn't a strength, but it's hardly the #1 reason for the Pens' struggles.

Yeah, I'm shocked people are blaming the goaltending right now.

I don't think Jarry has been great. But when you get like 4 shots a period for how do you blame the goaltending?

Not to mention we know Jarry is hurt and Sullivan is actually doing the right thing with the goaltending and playing Desmith over him who has been pretty solid for us despite the actual record.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Most of us come to the point in life where we're no longer perceived as potential stars in our occupation. Where all of our shortcomings aren't defended as development but as irritations and outright flaws.

Kasperi Kapanen has reached this point with me. He's no longer the subject of intrigue, potential whateverdom. He's just some high variance guy who peaks at "above average" and his valleys are stab-your-eyeballs-out. He is so uninteresting to me now, especially for $3M+ AAV (unnecessarily).

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This is a silly assessment. Everybody loved Kapanen that first season. He was bad last season. He started off well and then the entire team dried up production wise and everyone seems to think it is Kapanen's fault.

He's also fine defensively by the metrics. It's just a bunch of horseshit about a player you don't like. You did the same thing with Zucker all last season and now he's producing so suddenly he is worthwhile.

Also not sure why you are using 25 pt players when Kapanen's worst season in the last 4 is 32.

Alright man, take care. I suggest the Dap DryDex wall repair kit for your troubles over the next handful of years of Sullivan since he's your boogeyman, and he's not going anywhere regardless of what any of us want. Kap's trash, and he'll be playing for some C-tier league in Finland or the KHL in a few years. Probably because Sully voodoo dolled him into oblivion. That rascal.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I'd love to know if letang's numbers have improved since dumo was demoted.

 

[Gurglesons]

Alright man, take care. I suggest the Dap DryDex wall repair kit for your troubles over the next handful of years of Sullivan since he's your boogeyman, and he's not going anywhere regardless of what any of us want. Kap's trash, and he'll be playing for some C-tier league in Finland or the KHL in a few years. Probably because Sully voodoo dolled him into oblivion. That rascal.

I mean everything I'm saying is facts about the player. I'm not saying he's some world beater, but Sullivan simply can't coach players that are like Kapanen, Rakell, etc.

I imagine Rakell will be on the 3rd line next season because Guentzel - Crosby - Rust couldn't hack it and Rakell was up their one shift and turned over the puck is Sullivan stays. I mean we already saw Sullivan put Rakell on L3 from day one. He's a xenophobic moron.


@HandshakeLine's convinced me at this point.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I mean everything I'm saying is facts about the player. I'm not saying he's some world beater, but Sullivan simply can't coach players that are like Kapanen, Rakell, etc.

I imagine Rakell will be on the 3rd line next season because Guentzel - Crosby - Rust couldn't hack it and Rakell was up their one shift and turned over the puck is Sullivan stays. I mean we already saw Sullivan put Rakell on L3 from day one. He's a xenophobic moron.


@HandshakeLine's convinced me at this point.

Whaaattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt?

If Rak starts playing like Kapanen for a year, he ought to be on the third line. But he has intelligence and skill, so I doubt it'll get there.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean everything I'm saying is facts about the player. I'm not saying he's some world beater, but Sullivan simply can't coach players that are like Kapanen, Rakell, etc.

Huh? Sullivan adores 30pt, bottom-6 nobodies. Kap's just a f***ing dipshit.

Rakell's an odd pick because alongside Zucker, he's probably been the team's best forward as far as consistently putting forth a relatively mistake-free, good performance night in and night out. In Rakell's case, regardless of what line he's been on, that trio has been overwhelmingly successful. That darned Mike Sullivan.

 

[Gurglesons]

Whaaattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt?

If Rak starts playing like Kapanen for a year, he ought to be on the third line. But he has intelligence and skill, so I doubt it'll get there.

Have you watched Rakell's usage by Sullivan this year?

Huh? Sullivan adores 30pt, bottom-6 nobodies. Kap's just a f***ing dipshit.

Rakell's an odd pick because alongside Zucker, he's probably been the team's best forward as far as consistently putting forth a relatively mistake-free, good performance night in and night out. In Rakell's case, regardless of what line he's been on, that trio has been overwhelmingly successful. That darned Mike Sullivan.

You are looking at the points and not the skill set and what allows Kapanen to succeed. Kapanen and Rakell are east west players. Sullivan hates that shit. Malkin is the only one who gets away with it on the roster and even he is way more north south then the typical Euro.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Have you watched Rakell's usage by Sullivan this year?

Sully is obsessed with GCR and the idealized version of a Sidney Crosby line dating back to Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis and Sid & his Kids.
He knows Geno is an important and legendary supporting player, but finds him inferior to Crosby and as such Crosby will always take precedence in Sullivan's usage.

The top wingers who don't play with Crosby (not G and R) play with Malkin. As such, they also get lesser usage.
G & R also get powerplay time because the team is convinced GCR is some juggernaut and then Malkin/Letang are the legends. Hence our dysfunctional band of puppies comes together to give up SHGs.


All this is to say that there is a clear pecking order on this team, and the top of the pecking order gets precedence. But setting aside the ice time at the top of the pecking order, Sully treats the distribution of the remaining ice time fairly. Rakell and Zucker are clearly the best guys and so they get the best center. There are so many better hills for you to die on than "woe is Kapanen." He made his own bed and can lie in it.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Have you watched Rakell's usage by Sullivan this year?




You are looking at the points and not the skill set and what allows Kapanen to succeed. Kapanen and Rakell are east west players. Sullivan hates that shit. Malkin is the only one who gets away with it on the roster and even he is way more north south then the typical Euro.

Kap's a dude who cheats up the ice waiting to fly the zone and get an odd-man rush or breakaway going the other way--in which he inevitably botches because he's completely clueless with the puck on his stick. That's literally his only trick. To begin to compare Kap and Rakell as anything close to similar in approach or effectiveness is pretty wild, tbh. Just braindead stuff.

Xenophobia? You're approaching Pens X, angrus, SouthGeorge, or HOG territory of out of your mind, baffling obsession and a near-fanatical disdain for a guy. Of the players in the NHL, 72.3% are North American players (44.6% Canadian, 27.7% American) so the odds are preeeeeeeetty f***ing high that if the coach has a blindspot or favorites some guys, they'll be NA players. Think you're reachin' real f***ing hard with the xenophobia schtick, tbh bud.

 

[PaulD]

We're almost halfway through November, so we can't really cling to this just being a bad stretch. I think this just is what this team is now. They're probably still good enough to make the playoffs if they figure out special teams and get at least decent goaltending, but a deep run is unlikely.

Dominant cup caliber teams assert their will on their opponents at least on occasion. We've had some six goal efforts, but the only opponent I felt like we dominated so far this year is Arizona.

So I dunno. I think it's like @Empoleon8771 said earlier in the year. We're good enough to make the playoffs. We'll go on a few regular season runs this year that make us all temporarily believe. But there will also be stretches of horrible play. This is just what this team is, at least under Sullivan. Maybe a different coach would change things.

Let's not forget those who decided to give Letang his god awful extension. Now this brainless piece of s...t is going to torture us for 6 more years for 6 mln of cap space.

Ridiculous post

 

[ChaosAgent]

Xenophobia? You're approaching Pens X, angrus, SouthGeorge, or HOG territory of out of your mind, baffling obsession and a near-fanatical disdain for a guy. Of the players in the NHL, 72.3% are North American players (44.6% Canadian, 27.7% American) so the odds are preeeeeeeetty f***ing high that if the coach has a blindspot or favorites some guys, they'll be NA players. Think you're reachin' real f***ing hard with the xenophobia schtick, tbh bud.

I'm sure Sully has a minor preference for NA players as most coaches do.

But I'd also say that Dumoulin's demotion for a Swede is weird timing for a "Sully is (North) America First" accusation.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm sure Sully has a minor preference for NA players as most coaches do.

But I'd also say that Dumoulin's demotion for a Swede is weird timing for a "Sully is (North) America First" accusation.

I don't think much of the Brotherhood of NHL Coaches™ whatsoever and think with a lot of coaches, you see guys who see themselves in these 4th line grinders so they develop a fondness. But the jump from "Sullivan is a flawed coach way past his expiration date" to "Sullivan is a xenophobic dickhead who reviles Euros and has tanked Kap's game because of bigotry" is just some exceptional, first ballot hall of fame shit for HFboards.

Pixies, my dude, you gotta go for a walk or somethin'. It's not that serious.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm sure Sully has a minor preference for NA players as most coaches do.

But I'd also say that Dumoulin's demotion for a Swede is weird timing for a "Sully is (North) America First" accusation.

As if the Dumoulin for Pettersson swap isn't being done begrudgingly.

I don't think much of the Brotherhood of NHL Coaches™ whatsoever and think with a lot of coaches, you see guys who see themselves in these 4th line grinders so they develop a fondness. But the jump from "Sullivan is a flawed coach way past his expiration date" to "Sullivan is a xenophobic dickhead who reviles Euros and has tanked Kap's game because of bigotry" is just some exceptional, first ballot hall of fame shit for HFboards.

Pixies, my dude, you gotta go for a walk or somethin'. It's not that serious.

@HandshakeLine started it. I'm just saying there is some truth to it.

Hopefully Kapanen is traded for all parties involved.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

As if the Dumoulin for Pettersson swap isn't being done begrudgingly.



@HandshakeLine started it. I'm just saying there is some truth to it.

Hopefully Kapanen is traded for all parties involved.

When it all boils down to it, we very much agree on the final point.