Post-Game Talk: Pens vs. Devils - Wow... that happened

[penguins2946*]

Eh, the Pens still need a top-6 winger. The reason their GPG is so high is because they're killing it on the PP right now. They have been pretty weak at ES relatively speaking (6th in ES goals/game, which is skewed from the 5 ES goals yesterday). They need 1 more top-6 guy. Bennett is probably playing with Sutter and Downie, and Malkin needs 1 more guy, regardless of whether he's playing with Dupuis or Kunitz.

 

[Tender Rip]

Sutter continuing his strong play from the playoffs (in a second line scoring role) to start the pre-season and season was a welcome surprise. Winning faceoffs, going to the net, picking up points and generally spending a lot of time in the offensive zone.

Since Malkin moved back to center, and Sutter was moved with checkers, he's back to getting crushed territorially (mid 30s in corsi % in that role...that's 5-man-unit-of-Glass-Sill-Adams-Orpik-Scuderi territory).

First off let me say that I think we agree on much more than we disagree, and that I like this kind of discussion .

I think elements of the above need to be contextualized.
1: While playing with Malkin (and Dupuis), Sutter got many more offensive zone starts whereas the third line with him as the C is the go to line against tough competition in the defensive zone. It should not be a surprise that this has consequences.
2: Sutter is simply not a player who will by himself make a line strong numbers wise when it comes to possession, because of the type of player he is. He is a counter puncher, and whereas Malkin is the type of C who needs to dominate in the offensive zone to shine, Sutter is more of a "keep opposition on the outside and pounce in transition" type. I think player tendencies have to be looked at also when looking at corsi, and Sutter can be effective with lower numbers than most others.

Even if I was to accept the wisdom of a dubious strategy like stacking playmakers on a line together, it still strikes me as far less important that Malkin (whose differentials are currently better than they've been in the last two years) shoot one more time every 4 games than it is that Sutter's line contributes instead of being dominated.

Your link must be wrong...
Anyway.... You are still talking about his shots and differentials compared to seasons where Malkin has not had the right compliments. The last two seasons and this compared with an average over the seasons 2009/2012, he averages app. 0,75 ES shot less per game. That is 61.5 ES shots per season and considering that he will always get a large share of his total shots on the PP, that is a very, very significant number in so far as it is more than 20% of his total shots and close to 50% of his ES shots period. Moreover, Geno thrives on this and gets into the zone when he is in "shoot more, shoot everyone" mode.

As for the "stacking playmakers" thing..... we are talking about Beau Bennett here. Someone who has talent but proven nothing. Today (arguably) the second best C in the world is playing with Dupuis and Comeau, and the reality is that in this situation Malkin is not and will not be playing as the second best C in the world. Certainly not ES where his line mates just make it impossible for him to dominate the way he otherwise can.

Don't know if you ever caught some of the Magnitogorsk games during the lockout, but even if it was against inferior competition and on big ice, I will never be dissuaded from arguing that Malkin's perfect fits were illustrated there with Mozyakin and Kulemin. It was friggin art, and Mozyakin is a better playmaker than Geno has ever played with in the NHL short of Sid while also being a better shooter than anyone he has played with short of Neal. Kulemin of course did all the board work and defensive coverage one could ask for.

Either way, that was an expensive super-line, more so considering the league, and we cannot have an NHL equivalent. I know that, and I am not asking for the world here.
Further, at this early point of the season I am super lax about how Johnston experiments. I just dislike consistently doing what has never worked and never will. Ie. Dupuis with Malkin. It is pretty much an affront to me, and it absolutely has consequences for Malkin's game. Comeau of course is not a long term solution either, but I don't think he actively detracts from Malkin's game. Dupuis, much as he is otherwise loveable, does.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Eh, the Pens still need a top-6 winger. The reason their GPG is so high is because they're killing it on the PP right now. They have been pretty weak at ES relatively speaking (6th in ES goals/game, which is skewed from the 5 ES goals yesterday). They need 1 more top-6 guy. Bennett is probably playing with Sutter and Downie, and Malkin needs 1 more guy, regardless of whether he's playing with Dupuis or Kunitz.

Yeah, I wasn't arguing to NOT look for another top-6 quality wing. Merely that they might not be in as deep trouble as I, and some here, thought, because they made up some of that lack in other ways. The PP as you point out being one. The bottom six actually scoring, ever, another. It is not the same thing, nor as good, ideally you want it all, but it might mitigate the hole somewhat is all that I was saying. And that PP is not going to get bad, nor will the bottom six, so we can count on that continuing to be an asset into the playoffs.

 

[penguins2946*]

Yeah, I wasn't arguing to NOT look for another top-6 quality wing. Merely that they might not be in as deep trouble as I, and some here, thought, because they made up some of that lack in other ways. The PP as you point out being one. The bottom six actually scoring, ever, another. It is not the same thing, nor as good, ideally you want it all, but it might mitigate the hole somewhat is all that I was saying.

The Pens don't need to go out and get an Evander Kane or someone at that level, I agree. However, getting a winger at that level would make things a lot easier. I know it's been beaten to death at this point already, but Perron would be an awesome option for us. The PP won't be keeping up at this pace, we do need to become stronger at even strength. The bottom-6 is chipping in, and it will only get better once BB comes back. We need someone to make the Malkin line get more at even strength, along with Kunitz getting his head out of his ass.

My top-3 options to bring in that could potentially be available are Perron, Foligno and Tlusty, and the first 2 are miles ahead of Tlusty. Frolik is up there as well.

 

[jmelm]

Why is everyone forgetting Chris Stewart when talking about forwards? He would be less expensive than some of the other guys because he is a UFA, and yet he's got the potential to be both very good for us and, if he is, we can look to re-sign him. Plus, he brings the type of size, physicality and heavy game that we could use up front. You can't say that as much about any of the other guys.

 

[gordie]

When you talk Chris Stewart you need to keep in mind that Buffalo can't look like they're tanking for McDavid. The have to be very careful with the players they have and ask a high price for anyone they want to get rid of.

 

[Wes C Addle]

I haven't watched any Sabres games this year, but just looking at the stat line, Stewart has 1 assist in 10 games. That's it. It's Buffalo so maybe he's playing better than people realize, I dunno. But if we're 30 games in and he's still in single digit points, I'm not sure it's going to be all that expensive for anyone to acquire him.

 

[penguins2946*]

Stewart is lazy as hell and has looked like ass this year. No thanks.

 

[Boocock]

When you talk Chris Stewart you need to keep in mind that Buffalo can't look like they're tanking for McDavid. The have to be very careful with the players they have and ask a high price for anyone they want to get rid of.

So Scuderi, Adams, and a prospect for Stewart?

If there are serious questions about the man's work ethic, I don't want him anywhere near this team. Frankly, I don't want any of the forwards on the Sabres. I understand that Stewart and Stafford may be able to help in the size department, but at what cost?

It may be wise to search for a "diamond in the rough" somewhere as opposed to making a direct deal for an established top six player at this point.

 

[madinsomniac]

When you talk Chris Stewart you need to keep in mind that Buffalo can't look like they're tanking for McDavid. The have to be very careful with the players they have and ask a high price for anyone they want to get rid of.

Tanking isn't technically illegal and the NHL reduced the chances the worse team gets the top player so its not like they couldn't do that

 

[DearDiary]

Please. The only reason Adams scored that goal was because of pure luck. He put his team in the position to have to kill a penalty when it was a tie game.

Fact is he flubbed an easy out at even strength as usual and then took a bad penalty at a bad time because of his error.

That goal is because of Sutter and the PK units who killed off his ****** and untimely penalty. He didn't deke ****, and got a flukey goal.

I really don't think that you watch the games. The way you describe the goal, makes me think that. I think you read GDT's, watch the highlights, and then give your insightful commentary when all is said and done.

Your commentary was humorous to me in the offseason, (because the offseason is boring) but your schtick has worn thin now.

The thing is, 27 has actually had a few serviceable games so far this season as a fourth liner. Two or three maybe, but I didn't hear you chime in about his greatness then.

First of all, I watch every Pens games. That's why you don't see me posting in GDT's. I don't see how so many of you can post so much in GDT's and be able to watch the game. Are you all using phones? Or at home watching games on the computer?

That goal was all hardwork and some skill. Give credit where its due. It's hard for a player like him to get an opportunity like that, and he took it and not only that, did it with pure skill.

Craig has been a decent 4th liner in all the games so far. Why should I "chime in" about something I've been saying forever. Craig had a good game? Why do I need to post that? There are other Pens players playing well that should be talked about.

 

[billybudd]

stuff

Yeah, I like discussions like this.

I don't know that Malkin's shot total trends can really be explained by linemates. Looks too much like a Bell curve to me.

The two peak years were with Kunitz and Neal in the one, which makes sense. But with Comrie and...I don't even know who...Tangradi? Talbot? Rupp?...in the other. The precipitous drop, to my recollection, coincides with him returning from Russia and having anesthetic sprayed on his hand on the bench. The totals never went back up from that point.

I don't know why, exactly, Malkin started shooting less. Aiastelmon thinks it's because Neal parked in all the prime scoring areas. He might be right, but it doesn't explain why he peaked on a line with Neal just before bottoming out. Or why his prior peak was on a line with guys that didn't do much of anything at all.


To this point in a Pens uniform, Sutter's been a pure counterattack player. And to this point, he's been a problem because of that. If you're stuck in your own end, the D get tired. The goaltender gets tired. You lose third periods when the D and G spend long periods of time defending a team that's possessing them to death in the first two.

Other teams can overload their best defensive players on your other two lines because several big players--who don't even need to be all that good--will turn a Sutter checking line into an exercise in running out the clock. Gaustad's career numbers against Sutter, for example, are pure domination. Steckel likewise owned him.

It's possible that's all Sutter is, but I'm hoping (and probably Johnston's hoping) that he's just been miscast. He wins faceoffs and is responsible, but those are the only things he does that are desirable, for me, in a checking line player.

On the flipside, he's fast, has soft hands, long reach and a quick release. He can get meat on both wristshots and backhands. That sounds an awful lot like the description of a trigger. But a trigger's no good without a hand to fire it. We happen to have a player like that who isn't a center.

If Sutter can't play the goalscorer on a line whose purpose is to score goals, it is what it is. His time here has to be up, because what we've gotten out of him as a checker is unacceptable and Goc can and does do better. Teams have won a Stanley Cup with worse players than Dupuis and equivalent players to Comeau (to say nothing of a presumed acquisition) on a second line. I know of none that won with a third line that got owned as if they were a bunch of goons. Even those crap Habs teams that Roy was on had guys like Carbo and Gainey for depth. I'd like to know Sutter can't be an offensive player centering a 3rd scoring line before we pull that plug. Can't know that without one of Crosby, Malkin or Bennett playing on his wing. I'd vastly prefer playing Bennett there than one of the first two, if all three are in the lineup.


All I remember about Moyakin (sp?) from the one KHL game I saw is that he's small.

The link's from an author who played for Bridgeport 5 or 6 years ago, took a puck in the jaw and started a second career as a journalist. The long and short of it is that the Oilers approach of throwing skill at a problem--specifically playing Eberle and Nugent-Hopkins on a line together, instead of separating them and putting a guy like Van Riemsdyk, Okposo or, no joke, Dupuis on that wing--is a large contributor to why they can never get out of the basement.

 

[The Greatest 101]

On the Malkin and Dupuis Situation
1. Malkin is the type of player that makes his teammates better. You may call this "chemistry" if you wish.
2. Malkin's ability to maximize the value of his teammates is directly related to his very value as a player. In other words, Malkin's value is maximized when he has chemistry with his teammates. Alteratively, his production is limited when he is on a line with a teammate who is not directly affected by his play.
3. Dupuis is the type of player that can produce no matter where he is at in the lineup. However, it is best that he receives top nine minutes.
4. Dupuis's value is not directly affected by being on a line with Malkin.
5. Dupuis can produce on the first or third line just as much as he can on the second line with Malkin.
6. Dupuis and Malkin have no chemistry.

Therefore...
1. Malkin's value is not currently being maximized.
2. Dupuis's value will always be maximized.

So yeah, I'd split Malkin and Dupuis up.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Tender Rip]

The two peak years were with Kunitz and Neal in the one, which makes sense. But with Comrie and...I don't even know who...Tangradi? Talbot? Rupp?...in the other.

Nope. Sullivan-Neal. A playmaker and a shooter. If either of Sullivan or Neal had also brought an ounce of board work, that would have been ever better.

Comrie was there in the season where Sid sat out with concusssion and Malkin got Kunitz added to his line after Sid's ridiculously hot start. Then that line exploded after suffering with Comrie.... at C, Bylsma! But even then, Comrie for as much of a drag as he was, he could still pass the puck and think the game. His body just wasn't there, and that's why he sucked.

The precipitous drop, to my recollection, coincides with him returning from Russia and having anesthetic sprayed on his hand on the bench. The totals never went back up from that point.

I am sure that was a major reason. For a time. You could also see it in the quality and velocity of his shot when he did get it off. But I don't see any of that now. Now I just see him getting much fewer chances while absolutely ripping the puck when he does.

I will move out of the Sutter discussion for now... I still think that you are giving him a bit of a raw deal based on a small sample size, because he was effective post-deadline and in the playoffs last season, and its been just a few games this season at 3C where his defensive zone starts and QOC have been real high and goaltending hasn't helped.

Flip-side is that he is obviously someone we can trade given our roster situation and with Sundqvist being a bottom 6 option also next season. I would much prefer doing so if we re-signed Goc at a neat rate first though.

The link's from an author who played for Bridgeport 5 or 6 years ago, took a puck in the jaw and started a second career as a journalist. The long and short of it is that the Oilers approach of throwing skill at a problem--specifically playing Eberle and Nugent-Hopkins on a line together, instead of separating them and putting a guy like Van Riemsdyk, Okposo or, no joke, Dupuis on that wing--is a large contributor to why they can never get out of the basement.

Ah... you were only referring to that bit... that is kinda weak sauce, yes ?
It is one thing saying that a guy like Eberle should be taken away from Hall and RNH in favor of some grit/solidity (agreed), to say/infer/suggest that Dupuis is a good fit for Malkin.
I was one of those absolutely yearning for Kulemin/Malkin/Neal, and Kulemin sure ain't no super star or big scorer. But unlike Duper, he FITS Malkin.

As for something completely different, I am quite sure the author must have been thinking of Dupuis with Sid rather than Dupuis with Malkin. In any case the trouble with Dupuis on Sid's wing is that there's no Hall or Eberle on the other side. Because Dupuis is not a rotten choice in such a situation as it showed with Hossa also.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Yea Sutter's definitely getting a raw deal here.

2 years ago was his first playoff run ever and last season he was in the top 3 of Pens playoff performers with absolutely nothing on his wings.

With better players surrounding them, Sutter will be the better player if you're comparing Sutter to Goc. Will give you more on both sides of the puck.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Why is everyone forgetting Chris Stewart when talking about forwards? He would be less expensive than some of the other guys because he is a UFA, and yet he's got the potential to be both very good for us and, if he is, we can look to re-sign him. Plus, he brings the type of size, physicality and heavy game that we could use up front. You can't say that as much about any of the other guys.

Chris Stewart has come up as often as anybody else in these discussions. He's not being forgotten.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yea Sutter's definitely getting a raw deal here.

2 years ago was his first playoff run ever and last season he was in the top 3 of Pens playoff performers with absolutely nothing on his wings.

With better players surrounding them, Sutter will be the better player if you're comparing Sutter to Goc. Will give you more on both sides of the puck.

He had very solid wingers last year in the playoffs. Depending where Geno was lined up, Sutter was playing with either Jussi and Neal or Stempniak and Bennett. Sutter is a third line center who has been treated like a third line center. When our winger depth has allowed it, he has had good wings. After the deadline, he has had good wings both of his years here.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

First of all, I watch every Pens games. That's why you don't see me posting in GDT's. I don't see how so many of you can post so much in GDT's and be able to watch the game. Are you all using phones? Or at home watching games on the computer?

That goal was all hardwork and some skill. Give credit where its due. It's hard for a player like him to get an opportunity like that, and he took it and not only that, did it with pure skill.

Craig has been a decent 4th liner in all the games so far. Why should I "chime in" about something I've been saying forever. Craig had a good game? Why do I need to post that? There are other Pens players playing well that should be talked about.

How is failing to clear the puck leading to your line getting stuck in it's own zone resulting in you taking a lazy penalty where you subsequently are lucky enough to get a breakaway out of the box where you only score because you fanned on the shot "all hard work and some skill"?

 

[HandshakeLine]

You guys sure love falling for obvious trolls, don't you?

 

[WayneSid9987]

He had very solid wingers last year in the playoffs. Depending where Geno was lined up, Sutter was playing with either Jussi and Neal or Stempniak and Bennett. Sutter is a third line center who has been treated like a third line center. When our winger depth has allowed it, he has had good wings. After the deadline, he has had good wings both of his years here.

Forgot that our bonehead coach put Malkin on Sid's wing last year. He's certainly had a revolving door of wingers and hasn't played a full season with anything substantial though. This season he finally has something to work with over a full season.

 

[Fazkovsky]

Hey guys I got despres in my pool what production to expect at the end of season would 20-30pts be out of reach

 

[Ogrezilla]

Forgot that our bonehead coach put Malkin on Sid's wing last year. He's certainly had a revolving door of wingers and hasn't played a full season with anything substantial though. This season he finally has something to work with over a full season.

but even on the third line, it was Bennett and Stempniak.

 

[ProgOg]

Sutter's most common 5v5 linemates in 2013-14:

Tanner Glass (ca. 1/3 of his TOI), Brian Gibbons, Craig Adams, Taylor Pyatt, Chris Conner, Jokinen, Vitale, Megna, Kobasew - in that order. (all around 1/10 of his TOI).

In 2012-2013:

Cooke , Kennedy, (1/2 of his TOI), huge drop off, Dupuis, Glass, Neal ...

Wow, I almost forgot how bad 2013-14 was in terms of call-ups.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

When you talk Chris Stewart you need to keep in mind that Buffalo can't look like they're tanking for McDavid. The have to be very careful with the players they have and ask a high price for anyone they want to get rid of.

McDavid will also need someone to pass to when he gets there (if he gets there). Ditto Jack Eichel. Stewart might be amenable to sticking around there if they get a young superstar like that.


As for Brandon Sutter, I don't know how relevant talking about his linemates under Bylsma is. It's a new regime and we have a smart man behind the bench now. And he seems to have a clear plan for Sutter (and the rest of the team). Hopefully, it meshes with what JR is planning, as well.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Man, that Evgeni Malkin guy is really turning out to be a swell powerplay specialist for this team, huh? I'm glad they've been able to find a way to maximize the contributions of such a limited player! Too bad he can't play the point. Despite playing the point.