Post-Game Talk: | Pens vs Bruins | 4-2 win | Malkin who? Doesn’t matter we have Heinen

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Lots of teams won cups with elite talent. And dinosaurs like yourself looked at a guy like Patrick Maroon or Tom Wilson and said LOOK. They won the cup!!!

I would posit that with VERY few exceptions... teams ONLY win with elite talent.

 

[Gurglesons]

Kunitz was a down right nasty playoff competitor. If you didn't see that, we should probably agree to disagree.

And do you see your snarky ending comment. For all of the grief that I get on this board, I never write insulting comments. Probably because I'm from a different generation and have real in person discussions with people. Amazing that I never get such comments said in person...weird.

It’s not snarky. People loved that Orpik shift and Orpik in general. Dude was absolute trash.

 

[Gurglesons]

I would posit that with VERY few exceptions... teams ONLY win with elite talent.

St Louis didn’t have it. Although Pietrangelo, ROR and Tarasenko are not exactly what I’d call bruisers.

 

[Victor Z]

I have answered this questions many times, when will it be the final time? Let's make this it ok.

Yes, I agree that in 16 & 17 the Pens had very little in the way of physicality outside of Cole and Kunitz. I believe they caught the NHL literally flat footed and their speed shocked opposing teams. They dominated in 16, but you could see cracks in 17, especially in that Ottawa series, after the brutal Caps series. The Sens had them on the brink. Cheers to them, they got it done.

But then they dumped Cole and went one way, while the league got faster, bigger and nastier. What have been the results since?

The strawman that some are using here is absurd -- as if those who object to always-be-the-victim hockey are saying the Pens must stock up on tons of goons and play solely THAT style in order to win a Cup.

These are the same folks who blamed Jake Guentzel last playoffs for daring to become frustrated and failing to "just play" when he was on the receiving end of an attempted concussion on pretty much every shift against the Islanders. Jake's not capable of throwing down with Scott Mayfield in order to protect himself, but maybe -- just maybe -- if the Pens had merely one or two players (as opposed to "a team full of goons") who would stick up for him and show the Islanders that there are consequences for their dirty play (since the refs will not supply those consequences) that might make a difference, no?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

St Louis didn’t have it. Although Pietrangelo, ROR and Tarasenko are not exactly what I’d call bruisers.

Indeed. Like I said... exception proves the rule and all that.

 

[Gurglesons]

The strawman that some are using here is absurd -- as if those who object to always-be-the-victim hockey are saying the Pens must stock up on tons of goons and play solely THAT style in order to win a Cup.

These are the same folks who blamed Jake Guentzel last playoffs for daring to become frustrated and failing to "just play" when he was on the receiving end of an attempted concussion on pretty much every shift against the Islanders. Jake's not capable of throwing down with Scott Mayfield in order to protect himself, but maybe -- just maybe -- if the Pens had merely one or two players (as opposed to "a team full of goons") who would stick up for him and show the Islanders that there are consequences for their dirty play (since the refs will not supply those consequences) that might make a difference, no?

Nobody did this in 09, 16, and 17. The Penguins have tried to do this since Sid came in the league and it does nothing for them aside from end with their stars getting suspended or targeted more.

Nobody targeted Ovechkin after he knee’d Gonchar. Nobody targeted Orpik after he clean clocked Maatta or Wilson on Sheary.
Nobody targeted Niskanen after he concussed Sid.

I still stand on the hill that if Tom Wilson doesn’t get suspended in 2018 we win that series. The Caps beat us that year when they elevated skill over size in Vrana and he toasted us after the suspension.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Boston has a problem, anyone know a good exterminator in the area?

 

[66-30-33]

Jarry got a concussion yet from the punch? it's the Penguins way.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Yes he did, but have you ever seen the refs move faster to protect the player who delivered the cheap shot than what happened last night?

In contrast with any time when a Penguin player even sneezes in the vicinity of an opposition goalie -- or delivers a good clean HARD hit on anyone, rare though that is -- and the free beatdown commences faster than you can blink. Penguins just aren't "supposed" to play that way, and it's not tolerated -- not by the opposition, not by the refs.... and least of all by the Penguins' puss of a head coach (Mark Friedman says "hi").

The lack of a beatdown (as if the Pens are even capable of delivering one) last night on Marchand isn't all that noteworthy in and of itself. But in a long playoff series where such plays -- maybe not *quite* as bad as what Marchand did -- go on period after period with full approval of the game managers -- it would be handy to have someone on the ice who is capable, and ALLOWED (by the coach) to prove that two, in fact, CAN play at that game by hitting every bit as "legally dirty" as what's being done TO the Pens.

Ristolainen would be a start.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Nobody did this in 09, 16, and 17. The Penguins have tried to do this since Sid came in the league and it does nothing for them aside from end with their stars getting suspended or targeted more.

This is exactly the way it's gone down every time the Penguins have tried to "fight back" yes.

I don't know exactly why. Maybe it's Mario's comments in the past re: the absolute TRUTH about the officiating in the game and the lack of concern regarding player safety. Maybe it was Sid chirping refs early on in his career. Maybe because Cooke was an unmitigated dirtbag. I know it sounds a little conspiratorial and victim-y but it's true... it always just blows up in their face.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Were the Kings a big physical team?

They were based around possession in 2012 and the. Pearson - Carter - Toffoli + Gaborik in 2014. Kopitar is not a physical player. Doughty and Voynov weren’t throwing big hits.

Yes, certainly.

NHL Stats

Not to mention how Sutter was asking them to play, utilizing that size.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Jarry got a concussion yet from the punch? it's the Penguins way.

I'm pretty grateful his mask was on for both infractions. Those things are designed to take slapshots.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes, certainly.

NHL Stats

Not to mention how Sutter was asking them to play, utilizing that size.

I dunno. I was in the rink for multiple playoff series in that run. I don’t remember the Kings “beating up teams”.

Kings system and what the ideal system Sullivan runs with the Pens aren’t too far off tbh.

I’m all for adding a player like Nick Paul over ZAR and a Pavelski type over Kapanen tho.

 

[Pens x]

Who has won a Cup in recent memory going the "big and nasty" route? The Blues... and?

We aren't really going to try lumping TB into that category, I hope?

There are lots of ways to win, granted. But by and large it just really isn't THAT league, anymore.

You don’t need a bunch of slug enforcers, but Tampa had depth. We have 4 top six players.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You don’t need a bunch of slug enforcers, but Tampa had depth. We have 4 top six players.

I actually completely agree with this.

 

[66-30-33]

I'm pretty grateful his mask was on for both infractions. Those things are designed to take slapshots.

Yes. I say give the rat 15 games.

5 for the punch
5 for the stick
5 for being Marchand and also being suspended earlier in the season

If I am a Bruins fan I would be pissed because I will be without one of my best players for a while for something stupid.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I dunno. I was in the rink for multiple playoff series in that run. I don’t remember the Kings “beating up teams”.

Kings system and what the ideal system Sullivan runs with the Pens aren’t too far off tbh.

I’m all for adding a player like Nick Paul over ZAR and a Pavelski type over Kapanen tho.

I never said beating up. You guys mentioned size.

The point is they dominated teams on the walls. They didn't need to throw out so many hits because they had the puck so much.

 

[Gurglesons]

I never said beating up. You guys mentioned size.

The point is they dominated teams on the walls. They didn't need to throw out so many hits because they had the puck so much.

No. I never mentioned size. We were responding to “big and nasty”. Kings were big, but Kopitar and Carter their two foundational centers don’t play nasty.

 

[Victor Z]

I still stand on the hill that if Tom Wilson doesn’t get suspended in 2018 we win that series. The Caps beat us that year when they elevated skill over size in Vrana and he toasted us after the suspension.

You're not wrong.

But I still stand on the hill that the way that series actually played out was not 4 wins for the Capitals and 2 for the Penguins -- it was 2 for the Pens, 2 for the Caps and 2 for the refs on behalf of the Caps. With Tampa doing us (actually the Caps as it turned out) a huge favor by eliminating Boston, and then Vegas eliminating the better teams out west the Pens might have made it 3 cups in a row if they had been allowed to get past Washington, despite "the team was oh-so-tired after 2 long playoff runs" excuse some fans defensively adopted when the streak ended.

If Wilson gets the 5 minute major he and/or Ovechkin deserved for their "concussion sandwich" on Dumoulin in game 2 then perhaps that contest ends much differently. If Wilson gets the 5 minute major/game misconduct he deserved in game 3 for the hit on ZAR, then he's not on the ice with 1 minute to play in the 3rd period, slew-footing (no call) Maatta which leads directly to the 2-on-1 which resulted in the losing goal.

 

[Gurglesons]

You're not wrong.

But I still stand on the hill that the way that series actually played out was not 4 wins for the Capitals and 2 for the Penguins -- it was 2 for the Pens, 2 for the Caps and 2 for the refs on behalf of the Caps. With Tampa doing us (actually the Caps as it turned out) a huge favor by eliminating Boston, and then Vegas eliminating the better teams out west the Pens might have made it 3 cups in a row if they had been allowed to get past Washington, despite "the team was oh-so-tired after 2 long playoff runs" excuse some fans defensively adopted when the streak ended.

If Wilson gets the 5 minute major he and/or Ovechkin deserved for their "concussion sandwich" on Dumoulin in game 2 then perhaps that contest ends much differently. If Wilson gets the 5 minute major/game misconduct he deserved in game 3 for the hit on ZAR, then he's not on the ice with 1 minute to play in the 3rd period, slew-footing (no call) Maatta which leads directly to the 2-on-1 which resulted in the losing goal.

Dumo hit was clean and incidental. Just like Niskanen on Sid.

Maatta play is fair.

 

[Coastal Kev]

The strawman that some are using here is absurd -- as if those who object to always-be-the-victim hockey are saying the Pens must stock up on tons of goons and play solely THAT style in order to win a Cup.

These are the same folks who blamed Jake Guentzel last playoffs for daring to become frustrated and failing to "just play" when he was on the receiving end of an attempted concussion on pretty much every shift against the Islanders. Jake's not capable of throwing down with Scott Mayfield in order to protect himself, but maybe -- just maybe -- if the Pens had merely one or two players (as opposed to "a team full of goons") who would stick up for him and show the Islanders that there are consequences for their dirty play (since the refs will not supply those consequences) that might make a difference, no?

Exactly. If you had several forwards who targeted Mayfield nearly every shift, he wouldn't be so free to attack Jake will.

My lasting memory of said playoffs are the Islanders giggling at the Pens response in the penalty box. They new they had brought the Pens down to their type of game and the Pens have zero capability to compete in that style of game. That's why I was one of the few voices that offered any criticism of Jarry.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

No. I never mentioned size. We were responding to “big and nasty”. Kings were big, but Kopitar and Carter their two foundational centers don’t play nasty.

Ughhhh. We can stop beating around the bush here at any time.

The whole foundation of this conversation is about building a team with size to give you a competitive edge, and if teams in recent memory did that.
The Kings did this, twice.

When they didn't have the puck they would smash you. When they had the puck they would grind you down on the walls and force their way in front. It was a stifling, physical brand of hockey that exhausted opponents.

Being physical does not just mean throwing out flashy, huge hits. It's about winning battles all over the ice.
Those teams could take checks without losing possession. They effectively made power moves to the front of the net.
They had effective screens all the time, because they were impossible to box out.
They drew penalties because of defenders being unable to cope with it.

Stuff like that is what helped them win.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ughhhh. We can stop beating around the bush here at any time.

The whole foundation of this conversation is about building a team with size to give you a competitive edge, and if teams in recent memory did that.
The Kings did this, twice.

When they didn't have the puck they would smash you. When they had the puck they would grind you down on the walls and force their way in front. It was a stifling, physical brand of hockey that exhausted opponents.

Being physical does not just mean throwing out flashy, huge hits. It's about winning battles all over the ice.
Those teams could take checks without losing possession. They effectively made power moves to the front of the net.
They had effective screens all the time, because they were impossible to box out.

Stuff like that is what helped them win.

I’m all for adding size to this team. We actually did do that this summer. We moved out McCann and Tanev for McGinn and Heinen who are bigger players.

My point is I could give a rat’s ass about acquiring a big tough guy that punches people after our players get targeted.

@coastal_kev brought up Kunitz as if he was drilling people. No Kunitz was a snake and a prick. That’s what we need more of.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

My point is I could give a rat’s ass about acquiring a big tough guy that punches people after our players get targeted.

Yes adding one physical guy won't change much. We don't use Sutter's system here.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes adding one physical guy won't change much. We don't use Sutter's system here.

I disagree slightly. I think we saw the difference having Kapanen, Carter and Ceci had versus what we iced in 2019 against the Isles.

I think we’ve continued that trend with McGinn and Heinen being added.