Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

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OtherThingsILike

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I'm surprised that it's not obvious to everyone that if we're going to compete next season, we need to move Malkin to Crosby's wing and get a younger 2C.

Malkin and Crosby on separate lines is not a tenable situation anymore.
 
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molon labe

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There isn't much to be excited about in terms of the Penguins. Team stinks, not a given they will fire a woefully over expired coaching staff and as things stand now will probably give their first round pick to SJ. The franchise has flatlined. I have zero interest in signing more sloppy vets in the offseason and rather just go with all young internal players to fill holes. No reason to collect even more blah vet contracts. The kids may suck too but it's time to find out.

I'd rather suck, finish bottom 10 and have 20M in cap space (with a bunch of ELCs) to finally fix stuff than still-suck, finish bottom 10, and have 9 veterans with NMCs.

Stupid, stupid decisions have been / continue to get made.

Fully expect Sullivan and Carter/Harkins back just as I stated above. So yeah, the flatlined corpse that is the Penguins will continue - and it's ALL self inflicted. Maddening.

We're allergic to youth because we have a mouth-breathing front office (Dubas and everyone behind him obsessed with xStats) and horrible coaching staff/system.
 

molon labe

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I'm surprised that it's not obvious to everyone that if we're going to compete next season, we need to move Malkin to Crosby's wing and get a younger 2C.

Malkin and Crosby on separate lines is not a tenable situation anymore.

Hasn't been for SEVERAL seasons now. Yeah - we need a 2C. That's literally step 2 behind firing Sullivan.

We somehow told ourselves EK was going to increase the production of Acciari's and DOC's.

In fact I'd go:

1) We officially miss playoffs - Sullivan fired that night.
-
2) Summer starts, we work on bringing in Kadri or Luc Dubois or whomever else can fill 2C slot
3) We work on shipping out Smith/Rakell/Rust in that order -> ideally two of 3
4) Bring in top 6 that can create for themselves to replace those 2/3 we trade
5) Change the roster construction however you can (swapping depth D / depth F for players with 'other than' skills)
-
Extra Credit) Trade Jarry
 

Gurglesons

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Just say @Gurglesons because we all know who it is. ;)

Rust is actually the one they've done it with. He's got 5 goals in 10 games which is a 41 goal pace. Drew O'Connor is on a 55 pt pace. So he's the new Rust.

I'm not surprised by this. Whoever is used with Crosby the way we use Jake and Rust will produce points. Not at Guentzel's caliber, but at a caliber that makes them look a lot better than they really are.
 

molon labe

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Rust is actually the one they've done it with. He's got 5 goals in 10 games which is a 41 goal pace. Drew O'Connor is on a 55 pt pace. So he's the new Rust.

I'm not surprised by this. Whoever is used with Crosby the way we use Jake and Rust will produce points. Not at Guentzel's caliber, but at a caliber that makes them look a lot better than they really are.

Which is great so long as it's sustained.

The smarter move is having a player up there that can do that AND bring something else (see: Kunitz physicality, Hornqvist agitation / dirty goals). This recent roster filling of stuffing hot trash next to Sid that do nothing except suck air (DOC/Rakell) is just a waste. At least DOC is cheap but my goodness he's far, far from top 6.

Going forward you're playing a dangerous game by not having another top talent up there with Sid. I'm talking Marner level or not far from it.

Geno is already experiencing the ass-whooping of father time. He can still be a 60 point guy at 6M which is fine, but it's not going to look competitive coming from the 2C slot. We need to take our cap savings and start targeting scoring threats / studs. Why this front office is stuck in 2014 is beyond my comprehension.
 

pensfan71

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My fun offseason scenario that will never happen. Critique away and suggest what other moves would be ideal or if I've over/undervalued anyone
 

molon labe

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Line 1 should cost you between 20-25M.

X - Sid - Rust is 14M. Leaves a 6-10M spot. For one year. Depending on what Sid signs for again (if he does) - if it's discounted that means even more room....assuming Sid still plays on line 1.

Line two should cost you around 15-20M. Geno makes 6. Rakell/Smith are on the money but HORRID choices to compliment Geno. It would be way more prudent to have a Geno - Kadri - Bunting line which is....comfortably 17M ish?
 

Gurglesons

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Which is great so long as it's sustained.

The smarter move is having a player up there that can do that AND bring something else (see: Kunitz physicality, Hornqvist agitation / dirty goals). This recent roster filling of stuffing hot trash next to Sid that do nothing except suck air (DOC/Rakell) is just a waste. At least DOC is cheap but my goodness he's far, far from top 6.

Going forward you're playing a dangerous game by not having another top talent up there with Sid. I'm talking Marner level or not far from it.

Geno is already experiencing the ass-whooping of father time. He can still be a 60 point guy at 6M which is fine, but it's not going to look competitive coming from the 2C slot. We need to take our cap savings and start targeting scoring threats / studs. Why this front office is stuck in 2014 is beyond my comprehension.
I'm not arguing that this top six works.

My argument with Rakell replacing Guentzel was that we could hypothetically do what you are saying and invest major money into a top six difference maker while utilizing lesser talent in the top six if we can get rid of one of the bloated contracts in Rust, Bunting, Rakell or Smith.
 
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molon labe

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I'm not arguing that this top six works.

My argument with Rakell replacing Guentzel was that we could hypothetically do what you are saying and invest major money into a top six difference maker while utilizing lesser talent in the top six if we can get rid of one of the bloated contracts in Rust, Bunting, Rakell or Smith.

I'd like to get rid of 2 of the 3 to be honest. There's just not enough offensive firepower and that has been evident for a couple years now. It's only going to decline further..... which is considerably dangerous considering the goaltending we have, the defense we have, and the league scoring rising. Triple negative to what we're icing.

We need more goals, yesterday. Those aren't coming with Rakells/Smiths/Rusts/Ellers/etc etc etc etc in the lineup.

I keep advocating for Kadri because he's cost effective and can score. If we had to absorb JH in the process - I'm not opposed to it. Marner is the pipe dream and is two seasons away anyway (no way they're trading him here - not for any pieces we have). So I just don't know where we're getting it. It's seemingly going to HAVE to come from a team looking to dump their guy / willing to take our guy.

Only names coming to mind are: PLD, Kadri, JH, JG/Laine?, Brady Tkachuk? (can't afford), DeBrusk, whomever Vegas has to ditch for cap compliance, and Reinhart/Guentzel..... so when I look at those, it's tough to say who makes sense, who won't cost a ton, who's willing, etc. Tend to come back around to Kadri/JH.
 

Andy99

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As I’ve said before, you can’t play Geno on wing with Sullivan here…he won’t play him there much because he likes speed and forechecking gusto on the wings…assuming Sullivan is still here, what they should be doing at minimum is having a third f**king line that’s a scoring line and have a checking line as your fourth line, so the scoring is balanced…if we do that, I’d move Geno down to 3C and have him play fewer minutes, and if they really want to compete next season (not just lip service) they could go after someone like Pinto, or Drai lol…Drai sounds crazy but if he doesn’t want to resign with EDM in the last year of his contract, maybe we could trade for him as he is a huge Malkin fan…he would solve our 2C and PP issues lol

I'd like to get rid of 2 of the 3 to be honest. There's just not enough offensive firepower and that has been evident for a couple years now. It's only going to decline further..... which is considerably dangerous considering the goaltending we have, the defense we have, and the league scoring rising. Triple negative to what we're icing.

We need more goals, yesterday. Those aren't coming with Rakells/Smiths/Rusts/Ellers/etc etc etc etc in the lineup.

I keep advocating for Kadri because he's cost effective and can score. If we had to absorb JH in the process - I'm not opposed to it. Marner is the pipe dream and is two seasons away anyway (no way they're trading him here - not for any pieces we have). So I just don't know where we're getting it. It's seemingly going to HAVE to come from a team looking to dump their guy / willing to take our guy.

Only names coming to mind are: PLD, Kadri, JH, JG/Laine?, Brady Tkachuk? (can't afford), DeBrusk, whomever Vegas has to ditch for cap compliance, and Reinhart/Guentzel..... so when I look at those, it's tough to say who makes sense, who won't cost a ton, who's willing, etc. Tend to come back around to Kadri/JH.
Kadri is too old and signed for too long…try Pinto, Neces or Drai
 

Gurglesons

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As I’ve said before, you can’t play Geno on wing with Sullivan here…he won’t play him there much because he likes speed and forechecking gusto on the wings…assuming Sullivan is still here, what they should be doing at minimum is having a third f**king line that’s a scoring line and have a checking line as your fourth line, so the scoring is balanced…if we do that, I’d move Geno down to 3C and have him play fewer minutes, and if they really want to compete next season (not just lip service) they could go after someone like Pinto, or Drai lol…Drai sounds crazy but if he doesn’t want to resign with EDM in the last year of his contract, maybe we could trade for him as he is a huge Malkin fan…he would solve our 2C and PP issues lol


Kadri is too old and signed for too long…try Pinto, Neces or Drai

Playing Geno on wing is stupid in general. I don't understand why we are assuming this will do anything for him.
 

Andy99

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I love how lazy nhl gms are. Dubas getting Bunting just because he knows him.

Ray Shero drafting two busts from Portland just because their scouts went to Portland a lot and were interested in one of the prospects so might as well take em both.

etc
GMs know no more shit about players they don’t know than we do lol
 
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OtherThingsILike

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Playing Geno on wing is stupid in general. I don't understand why we are assuming this will do anything for him.
It's less about doing anything for him and more about doing things for the team.
Crosby and Malkin on separate lines requires them to have the bulk of the OZ starts. This makes it impossible to have a 'scoring' third line, because a line that begins most of its shifts in the DZ can't be a scoring line.
Crosby and Malkin on the same line means only one line needs to have a majority of OZ starts, and therefore the remaining OZ starts can be distributed more evenly between the 2nd and 3rd lines.
 

Andy99

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It's less about doing anything for him and more about doing things for the team.
Crosby and Malkin on separate lines requires them to have the bulk of the OZ starts. This makes it impossible to have a 'scoring' third line, because a line that begins most of its shifts in the DZ can't be a scoring line.
Crosby and Malkin on the same line means only one line needs to have a majority of OZ starts, and therefore the remaining OZ starts can be distributed more evenly between the 2nd and 3rd lines.
Yeah, I think that giving one line most of the OZ starts is stupid …I don’t care what Sid wants lol…evenly divide OZ starts between lines 1-3 and we’ll see much more balanced scoring…
 

OtherThingsILike

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Yeah, I think that giving one line most of the OZ starts is stupid …I don’t care what Sid wants lol…evenly divide OZ starts between lines 1-3 and we’ll see much more balanced scoring…
The Crosby and Malkin lines with more DZ starts would give up more goals against than would be made up for by the scoring 3rd line.
 

Gurglesons

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It's less about doing anything for him and more about doing things for the team.
Crosby and Malkin on separate lines requires them to have the bulk of the OZ starts. This makes it impossible to have a 'scoring' third line, because a line that begins most of its shifts in the DZ can't be a scoring line.
Crosby and Malkin on the same line means only one line needs to have a majority of OZ starts, and therefore the remaining OZ starts can be distributed more evenly between the 2nd and 3rd lines.

We can just do that without moving Malkin to wing.

Nothing about his game would work on the wing.

Why not just get him a winger that can drive play?
 

Freeptop

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Thoughts on Dubas and the upcoming offseason:

I find Dubas to so far be a mixed bag.
- I still think the Karlsson move was great. He got rid of several bad contracts in one go, brought in a player who is still good, and opened up cap space.
- I didn't know much about Graves and cringed at the length of the deal, but he was sold (not just by the team, but by posters on here as well) as someone who could be a complementary defenseman, based on his time with Makar as well as with Marino. Obviously, that was way off, and the fact that this evaluation was so bad is concerning.
- Jarry made me nervous at the time, but he really hasn't been bad at all, and his cap hit isn't pretty well in-line with the level of performance he's brought. There also weren't better options out there at the time.
- Eller has actually been just fine? If they don't move him in the offseason, I'd be fine with it.
- Acciari hasn't been bad, but he also hasn't been good. Mainly, I didn't really see the reason for signing him in the first place. I'll touch more on this a bit further down.
- Nieto is basically worse Acciari, but cheaper and with less term (in terms of my evaluation of his impact, not in terms of the player).
- Nedeljkovic has turned out to be a fantastic signing. No complaints there.
- On paper, the Smith trade was a slam-dunk. A player that has been a good (not great, but good) top six player, and the Pens got him for a third round pick? One they had previously obtained from the Knights for Blueger? There's a reason the majority of responses to this trade were originally positive. I'll get back to how this hasn't worked out further down.
- Then there's the flood of vets for WB/S: Hinostroza, Zohorna, Johnsson, White, Butcher, Hellberg, etc. On the one hand, they help out WB/S, and provide depth. On the other hand, a good number of them have ended up blocking prospects from being able to get more chances on the NHL roster.
- I really, really would have liked to have seen some spots deliberately kept open for young players to make the team, and Dubas didn't do that at all last offseason.
- Dubas should have been more proactive about making moves during the season when it looked like it was headed off the rails early on.
- The various waiver claims are kind of weird? On the one hand, you've got a chance at grabbing a diamond in the rough when a team has an excess at a position, or is mishandling their own player. On the other hand, most of the time, there's a reason the other team was trying to send down that player in the first place. And so far, the players have looked like they were more the latter category than the former.

That said, I do think there are some confounding factors that make it difficult to really evaluate Dubas, for me, and why I think this coming offseason will really tell a better story.
- So many players were underperforming their career averages this year. Including players like Acciari, Nieto, Smith, Rakell - players who were all supposed to help the team be better this year. That really speaks to a problem with coaching.
- Dubas clearly got marching orders that Sullivan was the coach for at least this year (and likely beyond).
- Dubas was clearly given the same marching orders as Hextall, with regards to "keep the core together, make the playoffs, but still rebuild the prospect pool". That's a nearly impossible job for anyone to accomplish, and was basically destined to fail, no matter who took it on.
- When Dubas came in, there's no reason he'd really have a good view into the Pens' prospect pool beyond, "it's not good". So the signings could very well reflect a hedging of bets against any prospect actually being worthwhile. He almost certainly was leaning hard on the coaching staff there. He's now had this season to get to see them play, in training camp, in Wilkes-Barre, and for at least some of them, in Pittsburgh. He should have a much better grasp on which prospects are either ready or close to being ready to taking NHL spots.

It's possible that Dubas started realizing that the wheels had flown off early in the season. And that shuffling the chairs wasn't going to help. Thus, why negotiations with Guentzel stopped. And why he didn't bother making moves during the season. He may have been building a case to make bigger changes during the offseason. If that is the case, then this offseason should indicate one way or another.

Signs I'm looking for:
- Does the coaching staff return intact? I think Sullivan needs to go, but at the very least, make changes to the assistants and in WB/S. But really, Sullivan should go, too.
- Does he leave space for prospects to make the roster next year? Assume O'Connor and Puustinen are now full-time NHLers. Pencil in Eller and Puljujarvi as the "vets" in the bottom six, and then make sure there is room on the roster for at least 2-4 prospects to be on the roster at all times (they can be rotated, but the space should be there for them). This would mean finding ways to unload Smith, Acciari, possibly Rakell as well. (Nieto is cheap enough to waive).
- Does Dubas bring in more young players via trades, or does he bring in a bunch more free agent vets? I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of packaging one of the second round picks with a roster player in order to bring back some quality prospects, for example (I'm assuming the Pens won't have a first round pick).
- Basically, any sign that Dubas hasn't deluded himself into thinking this team is still a contender, but instead is willing to genuinely get younger, with the understanding that a younger team is not going to be a contender right away - and will likely miss the playoffs again next year, for that matter.

Do I think I'll get those signs? I'm not confident of that, no. But there's enough wiggle room right now that I'm not ready to write off Dubas just yet, either. This offseason is huge.
 
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OtherThingsILike

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We can just do that without moving Malkin to wing.
Sure, technically we could give Crosby and Malkin more DZ starts, and in the process, allow more goals against.
Nothing about his game would work on the wing.
Nothing about the team with the top two lines getting the bulk of the OZ starts is working, and all possible alternatives with them on different lines would be even worse.
Why not just get him a winger that can drive play?
Because that isn't good enough anymore.
 

OtherThingsILike

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Evgeni Malkin ain't the issue regarding our 2nd line this season.
The top two lines getting the bulk of the OZ time is one of the main issues with the team this season.
It's not about the 2nd line in a vacuum, it's about the top two lines in relation to the team as a whole. And simply adding a winger to one of those lines who can drive play, (whoever the hell that would even be) is not sufficient to fix the issue.
 

Gurglesons

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The top two lines getting the bulk of the OZ time is one of the main issues with the team this season.
It's not about the 2nd line in a vacuum, it's about the top two lines in relation to the team as a whole. And simply adding a winger to one of those lines who can drive play, (whoever the hell that would even be) is not sufficient to fix the issue.

It's really not that unique. Most teams do the same with their top forwards.
 

Gurglesons

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And if our top forwards were younger and therefore less likely to get worn down as the season progresses, it would still work with ours.

Not sure who is getting worn down.

The issue is Malkin and Crosby are on an island and the bottom six depth players suck ass and are old.

Eller, Acciari, Carter, and the Harkins types are the issues with this roster, not Crosby and Malkin playing 1C and 2C.
 
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