Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[Zirakzigil]

Dubas is not impressed with your Jake trade proposals.

Click to read more...

 

[Zirakzigil]

You're also getting a good player for the next few years and then will be able to flip him for a 1st (in this example).

Idk, from everything I've read about Hoglander, it seems like comparing him to Zucker is really fair. Who knows how he progresses, but it's entirely feasible that they can get a good 3 years out of him and then flip him for more than a 1st.

You asked if trading a 1st for Kapanen right now was worth. I think you need to readjust your expectations when it comes to the return of a ~30 year old UFA like Jake tbh. The emphasis is on the prospect and the pick imo, not Hoglander. If the team can somehow manage a guy like Lekkerimaki and two 1st rounders, sure, absolutely go for it. I just don't think that's ever gonna happen.

And yeah, as much as I can't f***ing stand Kap as a player, I think drafting a guy who ends up being a 35pt player over 425ish NHL games is a win whenever you pick in the 25-30 range. Of course you want to hit a Pastrnak with that pick, but walking away with an NHL caliber guy is a win 99 times out of 100 with a pick like the Pens are gonna get in any Jake deal.

Might. Might return a 1st.

I mean, 3 posts ago you agreed comparing him to Kapanen was fair. Now he's pre-breakout Zucker (which is clearly a 1-2 year outlier compared to the rest of his career).

And getting a good player for the next few years without re-signing Jake means nothing to me.


The proposed trade that started all of this was Lekkerimaki and Hoglander.

I said I'd rather have a 1st than Hoglander.

Fair. I'd rather have Lekkerimaki, a 1st, and Hoglander. And I think Dubas can probably squeeze JR for that if he really wants to.

Because a 23 year old Kapanen can both go the ways of 27 year old Kapanen or 27 year old Zucker?

Plenty of players like Kapanen flame out as they hit their late 20s because they can't keep up their athleticism. Other players like Kapanen take another step forward and find a niche/skillset that makes them last a long time and make a ton of money in the NHL. Both are entirely reasonable paths for a guy in Hoglander's situation.

And once again, that's best case scenario. Or you could just take the 1st now.

Family Guy mystery box.

Hopefully we can finally be on the other side of JRs "fair" trades. Dude owes us for absolutely blowing his wad on Brassard, Zucker, Kapanen etc

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Pens won the last two games.

And went up 2 percentage points in playoff chances.

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Still a two in three chance of missing the playoffs for the second year in a row.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But back to the Hoglander vs 1st discussion, I think the main thing that makes me kinda lean towards Hoglander is the fact that the 1st will be in 2025 instead of 2024. But I think that can be swayed really easily if they also include a prospect, not necessarily a big name one but something like a 3rd/4th equivalent.

It seems like some Canucks fans on the main board are accepting of Mikheyev, Lekkerimaki, a 2025 1st and a minor plus for Guentzel with an extension. The tricky thing here is trying to come up with a deal for a rental Guentzel. The Canucks shouldn't trade Lekkerimaki for a rental Guentzel, but for an extended Guentzel, this deal is a no-brainer for both sides IMO.

That's the tough thing here, the Canucks trading their 1st this year makes a "fair" rental Guentzel trade really tough to come up with.

 

[ikyan]

Hoglander is overrated. He's shooting 20pct with a 105 PDO. If it's him or a pick, take the pick.

 

[Ugene Magic]

But back to the Hoglander vs 1st discussion, I think the main thing that makes me kinda lean towards Hoglander is the fact that the 1st will be in 2025 instead of 2024. But I think that can be swayed really easily if they also include a prospect, not necessarily a big name one but something like a 3rd/4th equivalent.

It seems like some Canucks fans on the main board are accepting of Mikheyev, Lekkerimaki, a 2025 1st and a minor plus for Guentzel with an extension. The tricky thing here is trying to come up with a deal for a rental Guentzel. The Canucks shouldn't trade Lekkerimaki for a rental Guentzel, but for an extended Guentzel, this deal is a no-brainer for both sides IMO.

That's the tough thing here, the Canucks trading their 1st this year makes a "fair" rental Guentzel trade really tough to come up with.

If I was to ask for a guy Mikheyev isn't my first choice, and screw next years 1st.

Garland, Hoglander and Lekkerimaki. <---Pens get younger in every piece

Now, potential and future.

For extended Guentzel.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Hoglander is overrated. He's shooting 20pct with a 105 PDO. If it's him or a pick, take the pick.

Draft pick might not turn out. If the Pens are keeping the asset, then trade for Hoglander. If they plan on flipping the asset, then get the 1st.

That said, I want more than Hoglander in a Jake trade.

 

[pensfan71]

Team is in a stupidly tricky position...the options are kinda as follows:

1. Do we sell out this year and take a lottery pick and come back with a vengeance next year BUT while taking the risk that this team swirls even further down the toilet, which means the pick is much higher in 2025
2. Do we play the game that we're going to be mid this year, give up the pick and hope we don't suck next year with the same risk as above
3. Do we just pray we're mid both years, so whichever pick it is, it is a wash
4. Be mid this year, suck next year for a lottery pick and waste another one of Sid's years

Obviously #4 is dogwater dirty and should be avoided. In my opinion, I'd almost rather option 1 because if we secure the lottery pick this year, a 1st either for this year or next year in the Jake trade, it kind of offsets the loss of the 1st to SJS IF and only IF we are good next year...I don't know, I don't envy Dubas' job. Open to thoughts!

 

[ChaosAgent]

But back to the Hoglander vs 1st discussion, I think the main thing that makes me kinda lean towards Hoglander is the fact that the 1st will be in 2025 instead of 2024. But I think that can be swayed really easily if they also include a prospect, not necessarily a big name one but something like a 3rd/4th equivalent.

It seems like some Canucks fans on the main board are accepting of Mikheyev, Lekkerimaki, a 2025 1st and a minor plus for Guentzel with an extension. The tricky thing here is trying to come up with a deal for a rental Guentzel. The Canucks shouldn't trade Lekkerimaki for a rental Guentzel, but for an extended Guentzel, this deal is a no-brainer for both sides IMO.

That's the tough thing here, the Canucks trading their 1st this year makes a "fair" rental Guentzel trade really tough to come up with.

I know present > future, but it's unlikely that the Canucks are this good next year. The 2025 1st should be higher than the 2024 1st, no?

 

[66-30-33]

Next week can't come soon enough. Dubas unleash hell!!

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Next week can't come soon enough. Dubas unleash hell!!

You want Dubas to bring the Toronto media here?

 

[66-30-33]

You want Dubas to bring the Toronto media here?

They are already here camped outside in tents.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Team is in a stupidly tricky position...the options are kinda as follows:

1. Do we sell out this year and take a lottery pick and come back with a vengeance next year BUT while taking the risk that this team swirls even further down the toilet, which means the pick is much higher in 2025
2. Do we play the game that we're going to be mid this year, give up the pick and hope we don't suck next year with the same risk as above
3. Do we just pray we're mid both years, so whichever pick it is, it is a wash
4. Be mid this year, suck next year for a lottery pick and waste another one of Sid's years

Obviously #4 is dogwater dirty and should be avoided. In my opinion, I'd almost rather option 1 because if we secure the lottery pick this year, a 1st either for this year or next year in the Jake trade, it kind of offsets the loss of the 1st to SJS IF and only IF we are good next year...I don't know, I don't envy Dubas' job. Open to thoughts!

With regards to the pick we owe SJS, it would be so stupid to take a player if we are picking like 12th-15th. Just give SJS the pick. There is a chance we are really epically bad in 2024-2025. If that pick that we gave away ends up being top 5, it would be so stupid that we gave it up just so we could pick 13th in 2024.

I think #4 is closest to reality, but also if you actually want to go for it I'm sure there are plenty of teams that would be willing to bet that we suck next year and happily trade for a 2025 unprotected 1st. Or even if we're doing pretty well, it's ammo to add at the deadline.

This may just be a personal inclination to absorb the bad news now vs. deferring. But I really think handing SJS the 2024 pick is the way to go.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I know present > future, but it's unlikely that the Canucks are this good next year. The 2025 1st should be higher than the 2024 1st, no?

Yes but a future year pick in a weaker draft will always have less value.

An interesting idea I had for a trade without any picks: would you do Guentzel with an extension for Mikheyev, Lekkerimaki and Raty? Raty was a piece they got in the Horvat trade last year, he was a 2nd rounder in 2021 that has progressed pretty well so far.

Aatu Raty is a good middle ground target for the "Hoglander vs 2025 1st" debate. He's a 21 year old center who has done pretty well in his 20 and 21 year old seasons in the AHL (27 points in 52 games last year, 34 points in 49 games this year). I don't know that he has necessarily "raised his value" from the #52 pick that he was drafted at, but it's a mid 2nd rounder that has progressed really well so far.

 

[Andy99]

Kingerski: Can confirm the senior advisor to the GM from the LA Kings (Marc Bergevin) is in attendance Penguins v Canucks.

ok….Byfield for Jake or Jarry it is then lol

 

[66-30-33]

Kingerski: Can confirm the senior advisor to the GM from the LA Kings (Marc Bergevin) is in attendance Penguins v Canucks.

ok….Byfield for Jake or Jarry it is then lol

Petts+Smith?

 

[Andy99]

Petts+Smith?

We better get a lot back for Petts…

 

[66-30-33]

We better get a lot back for Petts…

Don't know their prospect pool but 1st (part of Petts return), 2nd (Smith return) and whatever else.

 

[Turin]

Lekkerimaki and Hoglander for Guentzel

Pens are going full Swede.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yes but a future year pick in a weaker draft will always have less value.

An interesting idea I had for a trade without any picks: would you do Guentzel with an extension for Mikheyev, Lekkerimaki and Raty? Raty was a piece they got in the Horvat trade last year, he was a 2nd rounder in 2021 that has progressed pretty well so far.

Aatu Raty is a good middle ground target for the "Hoglander vs 2025 1st" debate. He's a 21 year old center who has done pretty well in his 20 and 21 year old seasons in the AHL (27 points in 52 games last year, 34 points in 49 games this year). I don't know that he has necessarily "raised his value" from the #52 pick that he was drafted at, but it's a mid 2nd rounder that has progressed really well so far.

Just from googling and stats-ing that Lekker dude is better than a 1st we would get. 7 goals at the WJC. Yes.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just from googling and stats-ing that Lekker dude is better than a 1st we would get. 7 goals at the WJC. Yes.

Yeah I think that's a no brainer, it's whether Raty in place of a 2025 1st would be acceptable. Personally I'd be all for it, but I know others would prefer the 1st.

Either way, I think it's very easy to come up with a reasonable trade if Guentzel is going to Vancouver with an extension. As a rental, it's a lot harder because they wouldn't (and frankly shouldn't) trade Lekkerimaki for a rental. Without Lekkerimaki on the table and no 2024 1st, I really struggle to come up with a "fair" deal for a rental Guentzel.

 

[TKalltheTime]

I still can’t stop laughing that this coaching staff is still employed LOLzzzz

 

[Ryder71]

I mentioned Hoglander and 1st for Jake a couple days ago. lol

That be really funny if that actually occurred.

 

[deakka]

seeing our wingers droping like flies this might be a good time trading Jake. If we get one NHL player back, or maybe 2 - a younger player and a salary back i.e Turcotte and Laferriere from L.A or Hoglander and Mikheyev from vancouver. (not actual proposals just thinking around some of the framworks suggested)

Mostly since they could play now and actaully increase out chance of making the playoffs.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'd be 100% fine seeing Smith dumped for Zucker so Arizona can eat salary to dump him back to Vegas.