Confirmed with Link: Pens hire Hextall (GM) and Burke (POHOP) - Part II

[Gurglesons]

I don't think you can compare now and then, though, because a]Sid and Geno are that much older and can't quite "carry" lesser talents like in the past to make up for any perceived weaknesses up front, and b]like you said, guys like Hornqvist and Kunitz played bigger than they were and played that kind of "physical forward" role.

Including Fehr, Guerin and Staal is a bit weird though because all three of those guys are 6'2 or taller and 210 lbs. or heavier.

For the record, I'm not even sure how easy it would be to add them. So it's not like I'm saying we missed out or whatever. I just personally think this team would be more effective if some of our top nine wingers whose job it is to provide offense were taller and heavier than our collection is. When ZAR is basically our giant in the top 9, it's a pretty small top 9.

I think adding one player with size and grit into the top nine and on L4 is the key. I was hoping DOC would use his size a little bit better, but Jank out for a little more aggressive 4C would probably do wonders.

I think the Jank experiment should be over tbh.

 

[Turin]

This was exactly the backwards thinking I was worried about. At least the author of the article points out the Lighting were the opposite of what Burke is talking about. Of course part of me can't even understand what he's talking about. Long pants hockey?

Although I’m loath to even count last year as a real Cup win- Hedman, Cernak, Bogosian, Schenn, Cirelli, Goodrow and Maroon are all big or physical. It’s not really about just size, it’s about making the Pens a bit zestier.

 

[eXile3]

Although I’m loath to even count last year as a real Cup win- Hedman, Cernak, Bogosian, Schenn, Cirelli, Goodrow and Maroon are all big or physical. It’s not really about just size, it’s about making the Pens a bit zestier.

I don't know how to quantify zestier though. I can for GAA, Points, WAR... sometimes I feel like the hockey world is that scene from moneyball where they're sitting around talking about how a players girlfriends attractiveness is an attribute to determine confidence.

Not sure if anyone has spotify but talking hockey's last episode is talking about the hires. They appear to be fans of the Hextall hire. Only bad move was Gostisbehere but at the time the deal made sense.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Tampa Bay objectively has a big team. Yes, some of their top players are smaller skilled guys, but they have a huge defense and quite a few heavy forwards.

The Penguins don't have that at all. They have a small, gritty and skilled top-6 and a vanilla, small and soft sized bottom-6. Their defense is filled with the same kind of players: soft and skilled puck movers or generally bland defensive guys.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Tampa Bay objectively has a big team. Yes, some of their top players are smaller skilled guys, but they have a huge defense and quite a few heavy forwards.

The Penguins don't have that at all. They have a small, gritty and skilled top-6 and a vanilla, small and soft sized bottom-6. Their defense is filled with the same kind of players: soft and skilled puck movers or generally bland defensive guys.

Boy that sure sounds an awful lot like the uh... Carolina Hurricanes from years back...

 

[robopigeon]

...

In terms of what I want this team to be, IMO the only way this team ever has a chance at winning another cup is if they become a trapping team. Go back to what this team was in 2017 without Letang and play that style. The stars will never buy into it, so it's a moot point, but that's what this team needs to do to win another cup. Become a trapping defensive team that punishes teams whenever they make a mistake (whether it be a turnover, penalty or blown coverage), they definitely have the goal scoring talent to be able to do that. That's how the 2017 team won.

The cup winning teams also followed the pattern of a tough, structured coach being fired and the new coach coming in and loosening the reigns (MJ wasn't tough, but work with me!). In Malkin and Crosby's prime that was tough to play against: mostly structured hockey with ridiculous freelancing. But overtime the structure falls away and you're left with sloppy, loose hockey that won't win anything.

Whether it's trapping or not, it'd be great to see highly disciplined, structured hockey again. Bruins are a good model for what they could win with -- Boston is not that big or physical anymore, but they play pretty tight. Malkin would do great in such a system, if he'd commit to it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The cup winning teams also followed the pattern of a tough, structured coach being fired and the new coach coming in and loosening the reigns (MJ wasn't tough, but work with me!). In Malkin and Crosby's prime that was tough to play against: mostly structured hockey with ridiculous freelancing. But overtime the structure falls away and you're left with sloppy, loose hockey that won't win anything.

Whether it's trapping or not, it'd be great to see highly disciplined, structured hockey again. Bruins are a good model for what they could win with -- Boston is not that big or physical anymore, but they play pretty tight. Malkin would do great in such a system, if he'd commit to it.

That's not what happened in 2017. In 2017 they trapped their way to a cup and rode amazing goaltending and timely goal scoring. I don't disagree with what you're saying, it's just IMO that they need to redo the 2017 team if they want to win again.

Boy that sure sounds an awful lot like the uh... Carolina Hurricanes from years back...

It's basically what the Penguins forward lineup was under Shero as well, just with slightly more skill in their top-6.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's not what happened in 2017. In 2017 they trapped their way to a cup and rode amazing goaltending and timely goal scoring. I don't disagree with what you're saying, it's just IMO that they need to redo the 2016 team if they want to win again.

The Pens did not trap in 2017. Lolz

And even if you subscribed to the fact they did, they did it horribly. The point of the trap is to limit chances. The 2017 Pens got out-chanced nearly every game.

 

[Rakell67]

I'm not saying we should add a bunch of big bruisers to the lineup and play "tough hockey", but I do wonder if part of the reason we struggle to score more greasy goals is because most of our skilled guys are a bit on the undersized side and can't consistently win battles in the crease area.

Particularly on the wings we've got 3 of our top 4 wingers under 6'0 and under 200 lbs. The fourth (Kapanen) is 6'1, but under 200 lbs. Our current third line has two guys smack dab on 6'0 (Tanev and ZAR), but only one of them is 200 lbs. or more.

If we could have added one or two guys in the 6'3 and 210 lbs. range who can actually produce a bit of offense to that top 9, I think we'd see more positive results.

JT Miller?

 

[eXile3]

Tampa Bay objectively has a big team. Yes, some of their top players are smaller skilled guys, but they have a huge defense and quite a few heavy forwards.

The Penguins don't have that at all. They have a small, gritty and skilled top-6 and a vanilla, small and soft sized bottom-6. Their defense is filled with the same kind of players: soft and skilled puck movers or generally bland defensive guys.

I believe they are ranked 17th in height so I would not say they objectively have a big team. I would say more more middle of the road. I get some larger players might play bigger roles so that might not tell the whole story. I just think talent is more an issue than size. So I agree with the Vanilla part.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Pens did not trap in 2017. Lolz

And even if you subscribed to the fact they did, they did it horribly.

Yes they did? They ran a soft 1-2-2 forecheck and neutral zone defense in that entire playoffs. For the standard for what this team usually does, that is absolutely a trap.

That Penguins team had 4 guys in the neutral zone basically anytime the other team tried to break out. That's a trap. I watched a couple minutes of game 6 to verify that, they're playing an ultra conservative system to basically force the Predators to dump the puck here.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes they did? They ran a soft 1-2-2 forecheck and neutral zone defense in that entire playoffs. For the standard for what this team usually does, that is absolutely a trap.

That Penguins team had 4 guys in the neutral zone basically anytime the other team tried to break out. That's a trap. I watched a couple minutes of game 6 to verify that, they're playing an ultra conservative system to basically force the Predators to dump the puck here.

They did this in the games they needed to win as most every NHL team does in the Caps G7 and as you alluded to G6. But acting like the Penguins are going to run a passive 1-2-2 for an entire season is just a fact that from ownership down is never gonna happen or work.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You guys would all die of boredom and understandably so after like 20 regular season games of a passive trap.

Making this team do that would be like a fish riding a bicycle.

 

[Pens x]

I think adding one player with size and grit into the top nine and on L4 is the key. I was hoping DOC would use his size a little bit better, but Jank out for a little more aggressive 4C would probably do wonders.

I think the Jank experiment should be over tbh.

It takes a real man to admit he was wrong. I guess Jank isn’t on that 40+ point pace anymore...

 

[Gurglesons]

It takes a real man to admit he was wrong. I guess Jank isn’t on that 40+ point pace anymore...

If only we would’ve gotten Erik Haula and his 4 assists in 13 games.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You guys would all die of boredom and understandably so after like 20 regular season games of a passive trap.

Making this team do that would be like a fish riding a bicycle.

Bold of you to assume that I'm not already dying of boredom when watching this Penguins team

 

[Gurglesons]

Bold of you to assume that I'm not already dying of boredom when watching this Penguins team

I mean, the games aside from the 5-10 minutes of shit play have actually been pretty entertaining.

 

[Pens x]

If only we would’ve gotten Erik Haula and his 4 assists in 13 games.

Haha I wanted a Granlund a lot more, but Haula has been a big disappointment. I would have taken Haula on that contract to play on the third line, and replace a top six player if they were injured.

EDIT: Me from October:
First off, I’ve been d-riding Granlund, no Haula.

You in October:
Granlund had 4 goals through his first 30 games. I mean, let's not pretend Granlund is some slam dunk player right now.

Grandlund is actually the opposite of what we need.

Granlund has 7 points in 11 games; 50+ point pace thus far...

I hope you are starting to realize how obvious it is that JR had a horrible off season. You really went at me all off season, defending these clown trades and signings.

Let’s hope Hextall can undue JR’s countless mistakes.

Go Pens

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean, the games aside from the 5-10 minutes of shit play have actually been pretty entertaining.

We're 1000% watching different games then, because it's been pretty unbearable to watch this team plod around aimlessly. If anything, there's spurts of like 5 minutes a game of entertaining, cohesive hockey and the other 55+ minutes are gaaaarbage.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Bold of you to assume that I'm not already dying of boredom when watching this Penguins team

HA! Fair point.

I guess I just don't think it would suit them. Like... POJ's goal from a few nights ago. That should have been a chip and chase play in a more passive, conservative, counter-attacking system. But Guentzel saw an opportunity and made the choice to exploit it. POJ committed to joining the rush he had started instead of staying back in his defensive position.

Not that I'm missing your overall point. I DO wish they'd throw out some more looks here and there depending on what the other team is doing and/or who they are playing. There certainly isn't much creativity or variety in what they do night to night.

 

[Tom Hanks]

What's funny there is, the Pens were not exactly a small team. They had plenty of guys back then who were big/big enough. 5/7 smallish guys. Some of them played bigger than they were. Very misleading.

Malkin
Kessel
Letang
Bonino
Cullen
Dumo
Maatta
Kuhnhackl
Lovejoy
Fehr
Schultz
Cole
Bennett
Sundqvist

Yeah you don’t have to be big to play a strong game. Strength and size aren’t automatically combined. It helps but that tenacity part of the brain can go a long way too.

Like Hornqvist rarely lost a puck battle and someone like Bonino was completely at home battling for pucks and getting to the dirty areas.

 

[JRS91]

Tampa Bay also drafts well.

Something we don't really do, at least recently.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Tampa Bay also drafts well.

Something we don't really do, at least recently.

Hey some of our draft picks do perfectly fine with other teams, I'll have you know.

Some of them do fine enough here too eventually after we trade them then re-acquire them!

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Ngl I just like Burke making Twitter and Pensburgh squirm with those comments

 

[Turin]

Tampa Bay also drafts well.

Something we don't really do, at least recently.

Tampa hasn’t been buying in a contention window for 13 years like Pittsburgh either. That’s 2008 until now picks were dealt to try to win now. Basically for longer than Stamkos has been in the NHL the Penguins have been dealing away picks.