Post-Game Talk: pens cane

[AuroraBorealis]

At this point in time I just don't have much hope for Blueger's supposed offensive headroom. Even in his limited offensive role I feel like I would have seen more by now. I don't hate... I don't like him... he's just there. I appreciate his work on the PK and his active stick and good positioning... during the regular season.

Well last season he put up 28 points in 65 games in a similar harsh role. That's quite good for me.
Now he's at the 16 game mark playing with Archibald and Poehling. He's definitely not bringing enough himself offensively, but I could easily see him improving his P/GP by like 30+% in a more attacking role with better players.

I'd say there's a negative mental component when getting so little O-zone time playing with scraps as well. It's not fun to play that way.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well last season he put up 28 points in 65 games in a similar harsh role. That's quite good for me.
Now he's at the 16 game mark playing with Archibald and Poehling. He's definitely not bringing enough himself offensively, but I could easily see him improving his P/GP by like 30+% in a more attacking role with better players.

I'd say there's a negative mental component when getting so little O-zone time as well. It's not fun to play that way.

I don't disagree... he's hardly being put in any kind of position for great offensive success. I guess I'm just not convinced that it's there to potentially exploit. Sullivan screws the pooch on a lot of lineup decisions but I actually think he has TB pegged correctly.

Overall I'm just kind of ambivalent toward the guy. To me it would be an eyeroll move to re-up him with an inevitable raise when you can just turn and burn for way cheaper.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think there's always the whole "if things broke just right" aspect. But that could literally be any player any give year with the right linemates and usage. I'm not gonna crusade against the poor guy... he does his job well enough I suppose... but neither am I going to be terribly enthusiastic about bringing him back on when you can probably just plug in some farm player there and get similar net results.

And yeah... I'm not saying I'm some master scout but if you watch hockey a while you can see if guys have flashes of ability. I've seen little of that from TB.

The penalty kill probably is exactly the same if they just replaced Carter with Rust.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don't disagree... he's hardly being put in any kind of position for great offensive success. I guess I'm just not convinced that it's there to potentially exploit. Sullivan screws the pooch on a lot of lineup decisions but I actually think he has TB pegged correctly.

Overall I'm just kind of ambivalent toward the guy. To me it would be an eyeroll move to re-up him with an inevitable raise when you can just turn and burn for way cheaper.

Will he get a raise if he continues to struggle offensively like this? Maybe.
I don't know if it's worth replacing him for someone of similar cost. I wouldn't bank on that replacement being as good defensively 5v5 or on the PK.
If we end up top 5 PK again this year, that would probably be with Blue being the best PK'er in both years. He communicates very well with the other PK'ers which improves everyone's play.
It's not something I take for granted.

I would scrap Blue if it meant big game fishing for a scoring 3C, but that would entail sacrificing upgrading the defense most likely, with the way our cap is projected to be.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's also known as the Kent Manderville effect.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Your Pittsburgh Mandervillians!

["Boys of Winter" plays on a thousand out-of-tune kazoos]

 

[SEALBound]

Wilson wasnt there in 2016

Sheary - Sid - Horny
Kunitz - Geno - Rust
Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel
Kuhn - Cullen - Fehr

Doesnt matter if HBK came from injury

Kunitz - Bonino - Rust > McGinn - Carter - Kap
Kuhn - Cullen - Fehr > Poehling - TB - Archibald

The bottom six wingers were just better overall

I realize that but Wilson did play a significant number of regular season games for us. He got hurt late in the year though. IIRC, they were brought up and down in pairs. From Dec 15 to April 16, there was a healthy back and forth from the AHL for Sheary, Rust, Wilson, and Kuhnhackl.

And you're missing what I'm saying just a bit - no one is arguing that 2016 had better bottom 6 wings. They did. It's clear. What I am saying is a two-part response - we had better wings because:
1. We had 4 guys from WBS that were able to provide impact levels of play that allowed us to shift good wingers around. Fehr was a 2RW, 3C, 4C but after Rust really established his effectiveness, Fehr became 4RW and Rust became 2/3RW. We don't have that influx of cheap young players that allow us to push other guys to other lines. If Puustinen game in and gave us Sheary or Rust-esque play, that could allow you to move a Zucker, Rust, or Rakell to the 3rd line. Then McGinn and Kapanen to the 4th line. I don't think McGinn or Kapanen are any worse than Kuhn or Fehr.
2. That circumstance is very rare. Yes, it's great to move 4-5 guys from WBS to the NHL roster but that's an exceedingly rare thing to accomplish. I can't remember the last time a cup contender did something like that so I'm suggesting it's not a realistic expectation to set for 2022-23 bottom 6.

I would suggest getting a guy like Poehling and Heinen are moves in that mold. Either of them can easily get us Kuhnhackl and Fehr levels of performance. Kuhnhackl was hardly special. Same for Fehr. Now Cullen, I mean...yeah, we squeezed the last bit of hockey he still had to give. Not unlike we are doing with Carter right now. So the direction is similar. Results vary. Such is life.

I mean we do have two of them and they are playing really well for us in Poehling and POJ. That's why I would give Poehling, Carter because I think they have similar archetypes as players versus force-feeding Blueger minutes.

That's why I want a DOC / Hallander - Poehling - Carter fourth line. Because it gives you a vet who can handle face-offs and also has had a big impact on young players previously with Toffoli and Pearson and he also can still chip in production so you aren't have a total net zero there.

Could easily see that line rocketing off and then you have a McGinn - Barbashev type - Kapanen line that can actually be defensively responsible while being an offensive threat.

Versus what we have now which is L3 which is offensively inclined but not really that much and L4 which is defensively inclined but will never score. Although that's kinda sully's favorite thing since 2018.

Does DOC-Poehling-Carter give us a better result than Poehling-Bleuger-Archibald?

I'm not even totally convinced that McGinn-Blueger-Kapanen would even be that much more impactful than McGinn-Carter-Kapanen.

And weren't you literally just telling everyone that Carter's performance thus far has been fine as a defensive-minded 3C?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't think Carter is "easily replaceable". I think there is a role on this team for Carter ala Corey Perry and honestly, Sullivan has been dropping his minutes hard and he's looked good.

I think this team looks great if we can acquire a Barbashev type and roll..

McGinn - Barbashev - Kapanen
Carter - Poehling - Archibald

Although I'd prefer we send Archibald to the moon too. And run..

DOC / Hallander - Poehling - Carter as L4, but I know that is never happening ever.

Yeah, Carter ideally should be in that Perry/Spezza role. An offensive minded 4th liner who brings value because he can still score, if utilized right, and like Spezza, can be trotted out in situations where you need a faceoff win. But none of those guys should be 3rd line players who are relied upon in all 200 feet of the rink every night.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's a little weird that I simply vocalized the idea the two of you have collaboratively come up with betwixt you and NOW suddenly they are actually pretty good and probably shouldn't be moved on from haha

"With Grrrrrrreat Power comes Grrrrrreat Rrrrrresponsibility" - Tony the Tiger

 

[Gurglesons]

I realize that but Wilson did play a significant number of regular season games for us. He got hurt late in the year though. IIRC, they were brought up and down in pairs. From Dec 15 to April 16, there was a healthy back and forth from the AHL for Sheary, Rust, Wilson, and Kuhnhackl.

And you're missing what I'm saying just a bit - no one is arguing that 2016 had better bottom 6 wings. They did. It's clear. What I am saying is a two-part response - we had better wings because:
1. We had 4 guys from WBS that were able to provide impact levels of play that allowed us to shift good wingers around. Fehr was a 2RW, 3C, 4C but after Rust really established his effectiveness, Fehr became 4RW and Rust became 2/3RW. We don't have that influx of cheap young players that allow us to push other guys to other lines. If Puustinen game in and gave us Sheary or Rust-esque play, that could allow you to move a Zucker, Rust, or Rakell to the 3rd line. Then McGinn and Kapanen to the 4th line. I don't think McGinn or Kapanen are any worse than Kuhn or Fehr.
2. That circumstance is very rare. Yes, it's great to move 4-5 guys from WBS to the NHL roster but that's an exceedingly rare thing to accomplish. I can't remember the last time a cup contender did something like that so I'm suggesting it's not a realistic expectation to set for 2022-23 bottom 6.

I would suggest getting a guy like Poehling and Heinen are moves in that mold. Either of them can easily get us Kuhnhackl and Fehr levels of performance. Kuhnhackl was hardly special. Same for Fehr. Now Cullen, I mean...yeah, we squeezed the last bit of hockey he still had to give. Not unlike we are doing with Carter right now. So the direction is similar. Results vary. Such is life.

Does DOC-Poehling-Carter give us a better result than Poehling-Bleuger-Archibald?

I'm not even totally convinced that McGinn-Blueger-Kapanen would even be that much more impactful than McGinn-Carter-Kapanen.

And weren't you literally just telling everyone that Carter's performance thus far has been fine as a defensive-minded 3C?

I don't know, but I'd rather try that out and add a Barbashev type that can move up the line up and add some physicality than keep Blueger.

And yes, I think Carter's performance this year for his cap fit has been fine. That doesn't mean I love or like him.

 

[SEALBound]

I think there's always the whole "if things broke just right" aspect. But that could literally be any player any given year with the right linemates and usage. I'm not gonna crusade against the poor guy... he does his job well enough I suppose... but neither am I going to be terribly enthusiastic about bringing him back when you can probably just plug in some farm player there and get similar net results.

And yeah... I'm not saying I'm some master scout but if you watch hockey a while you can see if guys have flashes of ability. I've seen little of that from TB.

I remember reading a 2013-2014 projected lineup article and it has "Jokinen-Crosby-Bleuger" as the top line.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I remember reading a 2013-2014 projected lineup article and it has "Jokinen-Crosby-Bleuger" as the top line.

It's wild to me that people dream such... lame dreams.

 

[SEALBound]

I don't know, but I'd rather try that out and add a Barbashev type that can move up the line up and add some physicality than keep Blueger.

And yes, I think Carter's performance this year for his cap fit has been fine. That doesn't mean I love or like him.

What do you mean by "Barbashev type"? Are you advocating for Barbashev himself or are you just saying a "26yo 3C who puts up 25-35-60pts"?

I mean, yeah that would be great to have on the 4th line but...I mean, is that realistic?

It's wild to me that people dream such... lame dreams.

I rarely blame people for chasing money but I always wonder how Jokinen would have done if he had resigned with the Penguins. His skill set was sorely needed. We went to Florida on a 4x4 and turns to garbage juice.

 

[Gurglesons]

What do you mean by "Barbashev type"? Are you advocating for Barbashev himself or are you just saying a "26yo 3C who puts up 25-35-60pts"?

I mean, yeah that would be great to have on the 4th line but...I mean, is that realistic?


I rarely blame people for chasing money but I always wonder how Jokinen would have done if he had resigned with the Penguins. His skill set was sorely needed. We went to Florida on a 4x4 and turns to garbage juice.

That is an absolute outlier season.

When I say Barbashev type I mean a LW / C that can play defensive minutes, PK and throws his body around and score. Last year I was advocating for Nick Paul. This year it's Barbashev. I have a type.

 

[SEALBound]

That is an absolute outlier season.

When I say Barbashev type I mean a LW / C that can play defensive minutes, PK and throws his body around and score. Last year I was advocating for Nick Paul. This year it's Barbashev. I have a type.

I think the org thinks the same...but that Carter and a guy like Poehling fit the bill well enough.

Realistically, I don't see a ton of moves for us. Maybe towards the TDL, send Heinen out for 1:1 swap for someone like Ritchie (using the Heinen-Ritchie as a previous trade example). Then that person can sit on the 4th line and you hope they provide more umph than Poehling and/or Archi.

I think they like Carter well enough to not trade him. Bleuger is fairly critical to the PK so unless it's part of a larger deal, I doubt they send him out.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the org thinks the same...but that Carter and a guy like Poehling fit the bill well enough.

Realistically, I don't see a ton of moves for us. Maybe towards the TDL, send Heinen out for 1:1 swap for someone like Ritchie (using the Heinen-Ritchie as a previous trade example). Then that person can sit on the 4th line and you hope they provide more umph than Poehling and/or Archi.

I think they like Carter well enough to not trade him. Bleuger is fairly critical to the PK so unless it's part of a larger deal, I doubt they send him out.

They moved ZAR.

 

[SEALBound]

They moved ZAR.

In a cap move to get Rakell. And he was a wing. Come on now.

 

[Darren McCord]

And weren't you literally just telling everyone that Carter's performance thus far has been fine as a defensive-minded 3C?

God no lol

I realize that but Wilson did play a significant number of regular season games for us. He got hurt late in the year though. IIRC, they were brought up and down in pairs. From Dec 15 to April 16, there was a healthy back and forth from the AHL for Sheary, Rust, Wilson, and Kuhnhackl.

And you're missing what I'm saying just a bit - no one is arguing that 2016 had better bottom 6 wings. They did. It's clear. What I am saying is a two-part response - we had better wings because:
1. We had 4 guys from WBS that were able to provide impact levels of play that allowed us to shift good wingers around. Fehr was a 2RW, 3C, 4C but after Rust really established his effectiveness, Fehr became 4RW and Rust became 2/3RW. We don't have that influx of cheap young players that allow us to push other guys to other lines. If Puustinen game in and gave us Sheary or Rust-esque play, that could allow you to move a Zucker, Rust, or Rakell to the 3rd line. Then McGinn and Kapanen to the 4th line. I don't think McGinn or Kapanen are any worse than Kuhn or Fehr.
2. That circumstance is very rare. Yes, it's great to move 4-5 guys from WBS to the NHL roster but that's an exceedingly rare thing to accomplish. I can't remember the last time a cup contender did something like that so I'm suggesting it's not a realistic expectation to set for 2022-23 bottom 6.

I would suggest getting a guy like Poehling and Heinen are moves in that mold. Either of them can easily get us Kuhnhackl and Fehr levels of performance. Kuhnhackl was hardly special. Same for Fehr. Now Cullen, I mean...yeah, we squeezed the last bit of hockey he still had to give. Not unlike we are doing with Carter right now. So the direction is similar. Results vary. Such is life.

Does DOC-Poehling-Carter give us a better result than Poehling-Bleuger-Archibald?

I'm not even totally convinced that McGinn-Blueger-Kapanen would even be that much more impactful than McGinn-Carter-Kapanen.

And weren't you literally just telling everyone that Carter's performance thus far has been fine as a defensive-minded 3C?

DOC and Hallander are actually producing better than Sheary and Rust were at this point in the AHL.

So while I see what you are saying, who knows what would happen. If you actually gave DOC a shot at line 2 like sheary had with line 1. If Archibald is hurt.

CGRa
DOC - Geno - Rust
McGinn - TB - Kap
Hallander - Carter - Poehling

I do think that could be a much more effective line up.

 

[SEALBound]

God no lol


DOC and Hallander are actually producing better than Sheary and Rust were at this point in the AHL.

So while I see what you are saying, who knows what would happen. If you actually gave DOC a shot at line 2 like sheary had with line 1. If Archibald is hurt.

CGRa
DOC - Geno - Rust
McGinn - TB - Kap
Hallander - Carter - Poehling

I do think that could be a much more effective line up.

I think we would be lucky if they both were capable of giving us a Kuhnhackl level of play and impact.

 

[Darren McCord]

I think we would be lucky if they both were capable of giving us a Kuhnhackl level of play and impact.

Sure but how will you know if they just ride the bench.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sure but how will you know if they just ride the bench.

Honestly Hallander could easily provide a “Kuhnhackl” impact. Poehling is also already adding a ton to L4.

 

[chethejet]

Teddy B just makes the PK really good, smart and remind me again how many shorties does anyone have not named Teddy B. He is fine where he is and If Pens do anything, go get a fourth RW RH shot with size and grit as Archibald just can't hang for 80 games play the playoffs. What I'd do is get a Sessons for say Dumo take the cap hit next couple but you have exactly what the Pens need for grit and some offense. Poehling, Teddy B and Sessons is a bigger stronger 4th line. Pens pick up some cap space and really 2.2 million AAV the next 3 with cap space going up is nothing. Sully wanted lafferty gone for some marginal RW who hasn't made a dent. As long as sully plays the smurfs and grinders who play his system he is happy. But another first round exit and he has to go no matter his shit contract extension by the new owners.

 

[Gurglesons]

Teddy B just makes the PK really good, smart and remind me again how many shorties does anyone have not named Teddy B. He is fine where he is and If Pens do anything, go get a fourth RW RH shot with size and grit as Archibald just can't hang for 80 games play the playoffs. What I'd do is get a Sessons for say Dumo take the cap hit next couple but you have exactly what the Pens need for grit and some offense. Poehling, Teddy B and Sessons is a bigger stronger 4th line. Pens pick up some cap space and really 2.2 million AAV the next 3 with cap space going up is nothing. Sully wanted lafferty gone for some marginal RW who hasn't made a dent. As long as sully plays the smurfs and grinders who play his system he is happy. But another first round exit and he has to go no matter his shit contract extension by the new owners.

Teddy has 0 SHP this year. We have 3 SHGs and they are by McGinn, Poehling, and Letang.

Teddy has 0 goals on an actual goaltender this year.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Our 3rd line is finally getting some traction and posters here want to break it up to placate their favorite players line?

No thanks. Play Heinen on the second line and let him play out his funk. A straight line player would be good for #71.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I remember reading a 2013-2014 projected lineup article and it has "Jokinen-Crosby-Bleuger" as the top line.

You gotta be jokinen with that.

(I'm here all week)

 

[SomeDude]

"With Grrrrrrreat Power comes Grrrrrreat Rrrrrresponsibility" - Tony the Tiger

“With a great Powerballlllll Powerplayyyyyy comes points for Evvvvvvvgeeeeeennnniiiiii Maalllllkin.”
-our idiot arena PA announcer