Confirmed with Link: Pens acquire Daniel Winnik for Sill, 2016 2nd, 2015 4th (Leafs retain $650k salary)

[Ugene Magic]

Eh. Pirates have had 2 good seasons, and they are highly ranked this year. Penguins fans who watch the Pirates would want them to right now trade McCutchen, Harrison, Polanco, Walker, and anything else "while their value is high."

They've made the playoffs 2 years in a row and are going into this season with probably their most complete and deepest roster yet.

I thought I heard rumblings of Walker being moved out?

Not in the loop guys.

Not doing anything significant that second season to bolster their chances and riding the lightning in a bottle the season before isn't the kind of competing I'm talking about.

If not for Harrison's surprise play they'd be nowhere that second season.

They can be deep all they want, but if they can't acquire that last element to get them over the top they'll just be a deep losing team when it matters. If only Morneau could have hit worth a damn when he came here.

Now don't get me wrong here, I love seeing them doing well, but I gave enough to earn the right to wait to see more. I'm not being sucked in, they're not pulling me in either.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Depends on the draft picks. THey are not all created equal. Also depends on how the players are packaged. Sutter + Kunitz could get you a real-world, already-a-good-NHL-player, so no, trading that for draft picks would be durpity dumb.

Individually, it could work to our advantage both this summer and in the long run. If you ended up with say 4-5 picks between rounds 2-4 in the next two drafts, and we can use the space this summer to sign one really good player to a long-term contract, then yah I'd be happy. If we get a couple 2nds and a bunch of 5th and 6th rounders, no I wouldn't. I'd rather trade for solid role players in that case.

Also Waffle is correct in his JR draft pick trade analysis. Anyone who complains about the Perron trade, given everything we've been through and what he brings (and his age), is off their rocker. The majority of 1st round draft picks every year, do not turn into players as good as David Perron. Especially late picks. Most years, people should think of the rounds and their value differently.

What people worry about giving away with "1st rounders" is really only likely to materialize if you have a pick in ~ the top 15 picks. Then players from about 15 to 40, have a more or less equal shot of succeeding / becoming a Top 9 F or Top 4 D. After that it's 100% crap-shoot or finding a diamond in the rough overseas that no one noticed (the Red Wings are really good at this). Draft picks are generally overvalued around here, although over time if you trade enough of them away, you are likely to hurt yourself (if you're always trading for rentals, etc). Because by shear statistics, if you pick enough of those 15-40 guys over say 5 years, at least 1 or 2 of them are likely to turn into useful players.

But Perron is not a rental.

All this is well taken, and to add to those points, I think people get caught up in the idea that Player X, like Perron in this case, is actually only worth a late 1st round pick TO US. That is clearly not the case. Edmonton, or any team that trades away an excellent player like Perron is not getting back anywhere near like value. If that were the case, they would be getting back something that would turn into David Perron + interest in the future. Does anyone think Edmonton got the future Hossa in this deal?

Teams that trade away good players have an asset on their hands they cannot utilize, since they are losing teams, the player is unhappy, the player will leave in free agency, etc. So that player is MUCH more valuable to the Pens than he is to Edmonton.

Teams in general are just loathe to give up draft picks for the same reasons posters here are. Because each one is a lottery ticket. But if someone offers you $20 for your dollar scratch off, you take it every time.

The only reason you don't take a deal like this, is if you have so much veteran talent that the salary cap becomes an issue. Well, we have such a core of young D that are inexpensive, and we have some old garbage which we can even buy out to save cap space on if worse comes to worse. So we are not in the position of already having too many David Perrons.

 

[Shady Machine]

Eh. Pirates have had 2 good seasons, and they are highly ranked this year. Penguins fans who watch the Pirates would want them to right now trade McCutchen, Harrison, Polanco, Walker, and anything else "while their value is high."

That's quite the exaggeration.

 

[cassius]

Reading about the Pirates on a hockey forum.. painful lol.

 

[Coastal Kev]

This is the vicious cycle the Pirates are in. All so the Nothings can pay down the dept of the team rather than boost their roster. They got lucky one season but refused to build on it and keep moving towards the goal of really competing.

Except of course they have the best young outfield in baseball. They also have one of the highest rated farm systems within MLB.

What made the Pirates awful wasn't the "vicious cycle", it was inept GM's and scouting.

How would you rate our GM's and scouting department over the last 8 years?? Take a look at our farm system if you need assistance for your answer.

 

[DoktorZaius]

The only reason you don't take a deal like this, is if you have so much veteran talent that the salary cap becomes an issue. Well, we have such a core of young D that are inexpensive, and we have some old garbage which we can even buy out to save cap space on if worse comes to worse. So we are not in the position of already having too many David Perrons.

Really good post, you make a lot of good points. And we definitely don't have too many David Perron's...I mean, I'd kill to have 2 Perron's and 2 Hornqvist's on this team for ~17 mil or w/e that would take up. But Kunitz isn't a Perron or a Hornqvist anymore, and he's earning similar money...so I do think you have to strongly consider moving Kunitz after the season and before the draft this summer, and I'd gladly take pure futures from the highest bidder for him.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Except of course they have the best young outfield in baseball. They also have one of the highest rated farm systems within MLB.

What made the Pirates awful wasn't the "vicious cycle", it was inept GM's and scouting.

How would you rate our GM's and scouting department over the last 8 years?? Take a look at our farm system if you need assistance for your answer.

The Pens are ranked 16th organizationally.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/fall-team-rankings-2014-15/page/2

Considering that they draft in the bottom third of each round every year for each player in the minors, and that they have gone 'all in' as many here have complained of 'emptying the cupboard' they are doing pretty damn well as far as simple talent goes. Balance, yes that is an issue with forward prospects few and far between comparatively. But still.

As far as the different sportsdiscussion, I bought Penguins season tickets in 2005. NOT because they won the Crosby lottery. I bought the tickets before that. It was because of the new CBA which had a cap and a floor. The league deserved my support for joining the rest of the mature sports where winning and losing depends almost entirely (within a fairly narrow cap and floor) on management and not the size of your payroll. It is also why I have not invested a dime, or much watching or emotions, on baseball. For the same reasons. My personal decision by the way, if others feel differently that is fine too.

 

[cygnus47]

I don't think we can judge JR's tactics as good or bad until the off-season is over. If we go nowhere in the playoffs and lose every single UFA AND fail to improve next year, then yes throwing away draft picks was a bad idea. If we make it past the 2nd round and re-sign all the UFA's we like to good contracts, then he comes out an absolute genius. Reality will be somewhere in the middle.

It's too early to judge.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Except of course they have the best young outfield in baseball. They also have one of the highest rated farm systems within MLB.

What made the Pirates awful wasn't the "vicious cycle", it was inept GM's and scouting.

How would you rate our GM's and scouting department over the last 8 years?? Take a look at our farm system if you need assistance for your answer.

Well, we have the best goalie in the AHL. And you won't find most of our best defensemen in the farm system, because they're too busy working their way towards being top pairing defensemen in the NHL.

The main, glaring deficiency in our scouting has been a lack of emphasis on forwards and Europe. That's it.

 

[JTG]

That's quite the exaggeration.

No ****?

 

[lastcupever75]

What people worry about giving away with "1st rounders" is really only likely to materialize if you have a pick in ~ the top 15 picks. Then players from about 15 to 40, have a more or less equal shot of succeeding / becoming a Top 9 F or Top 4 D. After that it's 100% crap-shoot or finding a diamond in the rough overseas that no one noticed (the Red Wings are really good at this). Draft picks are generally overvalued around here, although over time if you trade enough of them away, you are likely to hurt yourself (if you're always trading for rentals, etc). Because by shear statistics, if you pick enough of those 15-40 guys over say 5 years, at least 1 or 2 of them are likely to turn into useful players.

But Perron is not a rental.

i dont mind the perron deal, especially if he's resigned here. but, i'll just add that there are years when you see the perry's, getzlafs, giroux of the world get drafted in the 20s.

isnt this year supposed to be a deep draft?

 

[cygnus47]

i dont mind the perron deal, especially if he's resigned here. but, i'll just add that there are years when you see the perry's, getzlafs, giroux of the world get drafted in the 20s.

isnt this year supposed to be a deep draft?

Not really. Top end is very special, but the rest of the draft isn't looking out of the ordinary. For David Perron, it was worth trading the first. We still have our 2nd, and there's still time to move a Kunitz or Sutter or Scuderi for more picks depending on how this post-season goes.

 

[plaidchuck]

Every year supposedly is deep with "cant miss" potential. Tavares, hall, rnh, were all supposed to be the "next Crosby". They're all fine players but the hype gets ridiculous.

 

[Darth Vitale]

All this is well taken, and to add to those points, I think people get caught up in the idea that Player X, like Perron in this case, is actually only worth a late 1st round pick TO US. That is clearly not the case. ...

Teams that trade away good players have an asset on their hands they cannot utilize, since they are losing teams, the player is unhappy, the player will leave in free agency, etc. So that player is MUCH more valuable to the Pens than he is to Edmonton.

...

The only reason you don't take a deal like this, is if you have so much veteran talent that the salary cap becomes an issue. Well, we have such a core of young D that are inexpensive, and we have some old garbage which we can even buy out to save cap space on if worse comes to worse. So we are not in the position of already having too many David Perrons.

All good points.

Really good post, you make a lot of good points. And we definitely don't have too many David Perron's...I mean, I'd kill to have 2 Perron's and 2 Hornqvist's on this team for ~17 mil or w/e that would take up. But Kunitz isn't a Perron or a Hornqvist anymore, and he's earning similar money...so I do think you have to strongly consider moving Kunitz after the season and before the draft this summer, and I'd gladly take pure futures from the highest bidder for him.

Yyyep.

i dont mind the perron deal, especially if he's resigned here. but, i'll just add that there are years when you see the perry's, getzlafs, giroux of the world get drafted in the 20s.

isnt this year supposed to be a deep draft?

Yes, and there are definitely a couple good players waiting to earn their NHL stripes in that 15-40 pool every year... but your chances are about 1 in 15 of picking one of them. So when you have a known quantity you're getting in return and that player is a reliable known quantity on top of it, you do it. Only way you don't do it is if your GM wants a lottery pick and is going to package a bunch of picks in that year's draft (inlcuding a later 1st) and role players, to get 1 pick. But that almost never happens.

Every year supposedly is deep with "cant miss" potential. Tavares, hall, rnh, were all supposed to be the "next Crosby". They're all fine players but the hype gets ridiculous.

Double, yyyep. Although I think McDavid is arguably more of a sure thing than Hall, MacKinnon, etc. But yah. Way too much hype and assumption-making all around. Some butthead from SPortsnet the other day said of McDavid "maybe the best player we've ever seen drafted" or something similar. I mean it gets absurd. The odds he won't be (at a minimum) a really solid Top 6 player are almost nill, but the odds he will be in the [actually I said this wrong, it should be..] Gretzky - Crosby conversation, or even the [Crosby - Malkin -] Stamkos conversation, are far from guaranteed.

 

[BobCole]

Every year supposedly is deep with "cant miss" potential. Tavares, hall, rnh, were all supposed to be the "next Crosby". They're all fine players but the hype gets ridiculous.

None of those players were touted to be better than Crosby. McDavid is the most hyped prospect since Sid. FWIW, I love the kid and watch him play often. I don't think he'll be on Crosby's tier, but I hope I'm wrong. The more stars in the game, the better.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Every year supposedly is deep with "cant miss" potential. Tavares, hall, rnh, were all supposed to be the "next Crosby". They're all fine players but the hype gets ridiculous.

No. I mean, yes every year the top prospects gets touted to all hell and back and some idiots will throw the comparisons out, but that's far from a consensus and nobody expected them to actually be better than Sid.

The McDavid hype is exactly like what Sid's was. It started at an extremely early age and has only gained steam as time has gone on. He's the best prospect since Crosby and easily the most hyped since Crosby.

RNH most definitely wasn't hyped that same way as a Tavares or Stamkos, though. Hall's hype never reached Sid's level, but by this point leading up to the draft his hype had already cooled off a good deal...and by the draft there was a real Taylor or Tyler [Seguin] split, and Seguin definitely didn't get that same hype.

 

[Darth Vitale]

No. I mean, yes every year the top prospects gets touted to all hell and back and some idiots will throw the comparisons out, but that's far from a consensus and nobody expected them to actually be better than Sid.

The McDavid hype is exactly like what Sid's was. It started at an extremely early age and has only gained steam as time has gone on. He's the best prospect since Crosby and easily the most hyped since Crosby.

RNH most definitely wasn't hyped that same way as a Tavares or Stamkos, though. Hall's hype never reached Sid's level, but by this point leading up to the draft his hype had already cooled off a good deal...and by the draft there was a real Taylor or Tyler [Seguin] split, and Seguin definitely didn't get that same hype.

To expand... Seguin was on track for a 90-100 pt season before he got hurt, and he was the less talked about player of that draft year and the year or so that followed, but he ended up being the bigger impact player. So these media clowns... they're all just flapping their gums to be a part of the buzz and phenomenon. They have no idea what's going to happen beyond the "yah this guy has sufficient talent that if he stays healthy, there's no way he won't be a 35 goal scorer type player, maybe better". But then they take it another step and start doing the Full Rossi-like "will he be the best ever / next Gretzky / next one" thing and universally they all need to be told to shut it.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Anyway, we're veering off course here. This thread is really about Winnik and his value, and no 1st was involved so... let's get back to that.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

That's the unfortunate thing about journalism - without readers you don't have a job...and sensationalism gets readers. Once one guy runs with it a second will and a third, etc. Hype brings eyes and hype brings interest.

That said, McDavid's hype and Crosby's are practically identical. Childhood prodigies, hyped as the 'Next One' from the age of 14, absurd junior numbers right away, etc. The only difference is McDavid lost a good chunk of this season because of a fight...which has allowed Eichel to pull a Malkin and enter the conversation. Regardless of that last part he's easily the most hyped prospect since Sid.

And yeah, Pirates and McDavid in a Winnik thread...how did that happen?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Anyway, about Winnik...

...seems like a guy we traded for with the intention of re-signing. If he plays as well here as he did in T.O. and is available for a reasonable price, I hope we do.

His size, speed, and "heavy" play are exactly what we need in the bottom 6.

 

[Asuna]

Anyway, about Winnik...

...seems like a guy we traded for with the intention of re-signing. If he plays as well here as he did in T.O. and is available for a reasonable price, I hope we do.

His size, speed, and "heavy" play are exactly what we need in the bottom 6.

JR said he wanted to get Winnik over the summer but couldn't cause of the cap. So I definitely expect him to resign Winnik. I just hope the term isn't too long.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

JR said he wanted to get Winnik over the summer but couldn't cause of the cap. So I definitely expect him to resign Winnik. I just hope the term isn't too long.

Yeah, 3-4 years would be ideal.

 

[Penguinator]

Anyway, about Winnik...

...seems like a guy we traded for with the intention of re-signing. If he plays as well here as he did in T.O. and is available for a reasonable price, I hope we do.

His size, speed, and "heavy" play are exactly what we need in the bottom 6.

Even though thou art nay thy V8 aficionado... I agree 100%!

 

[Ugene Magic]

None of those players were touted to be better than Crosby. McDavid is the most hyped prospect since Sid. FWIW, I love the kid and watch him play often. I don't think he'll be on Crosby's tier, but I hope I'm wrong. The more stars in the game, the better.

See, that's the thing, he'll be a star, but what people try to impose and say is he is a generational talent, and up until this season he didn't look the part.

Now add in the team and players he plays with this season.

Soon to be 5 100 point players.

The guy was never on Sid's level, and the hype only grew recently.

Sid was never in the back of my mind, but I assure you McDavid was until recently. He was never shoved down my throat, even now.

You just knew he was there.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Even though thou art nay thy V8 aficionado... I agree 100%!

I'm tight with V8 too. It's just missing a certain, I dunno...clamminess.