Post-Game Talk: Pens 7, Rangers 2 - All Hail The WTF Line

[ColePens]

I think Pouliot will be okay. He's played what, 3 games now? Give him some time to get in a groove. He looks like he lacks confidence

What probably drives the coaching staff crazy is that he plays a bit too freely and doesn't have the talent to do it in the NHL. He gambles on his defensive angles (especially in the neutral zone), doesn't stop/start, and is careless when he's the last line of defense moving the puck up.

For how much structure is in the NHL game nowadays, as in every movement/pass/etc., he's a coaching nightmare. And players can get away with it if they are dynamic offensively, but he's not. He has a great outlet pass, but his offensive ability is pretty average at the NHL level. He's far from what many expected.

IMO, he needs like 2-4 more years of development and that's perfectly normal for young defenders. I just don't know if the Pens will be patient. They should.. seeing how Dumo and many others have succeeded with additional time, but I just feel the Pens will be impatient on this one.

edit: And you know what, if I'm a team who is young/upcoming, I would reach out to JR and let him develop. He could be a gem with the right development. I'm looking at a team like Detroit who would really like to have that in the system.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

As one of the Oilers posters who popped over here after the Schultz trade to explain why I thought it could be a great move, it makes me so happy to see all the praise. It'd be nice if the Oil weren't a graveyard for promising talent, but I'll settle for spewing I-told-you-so's to my friends and enjoying watching him light it up with the Pens.

I do love me some Penguins anyways.

I'm the opposite, Pens fan who has been a big Oilers fan since '96.

Schultz earned his nickname in Edm and he did visibly give up/go into self-preservation mode the last few months he was there. It was frustrating to see and when the trade went down, I wasn't as mad as I thought I'd be.

I saw what he could do offensively when he actually tried, so I suspected he would put up points. He was a train wreck in his own end though, but I figured he would be a seventh guy that subbed in when needed.

However, he was basically handed the job over Pouliot for no reason, and that bothered me though. He was given sheltered minutes through the playoffs and did well, can't knock him there.

He started the first 15-20 games this season playing poorly, especially struggling to even get shots on net and I thought he needed to sit.

Since then something has really clicked and his confidence took off. He is doing everything well right now and he's slowly growing on me. However, my fear of him quitting on the Pens if they struggle badly is always in the back of my mind.

To his credit, it's been mentioned several times by the coaching staff that he has put in a lot of after practice work, including video sessions, to get better. So I can respect that he is taking advantage of his situation.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

What probably drives the coaching staff crazy is that he plays a bit too freely and doesn't have the talent to do it in the NHL. He gambles on his defensive angles (especially in the neutral zone), doesn't stop/start, and is careless when he's the last line of defense moving the puck up.

For how much structure is in the NHL game nowadays, as in every movement/pass/etc., he's a coaching nightmare. And players can get away with it if they are dynamic offensively, but he's not. He has a great outlet pass, but his offensive ability is pretty average at the NHL level. He's far from what many expected.

IMO, he needs like 2-4 more years of development and that's perfectly normal for young defenders. I just don't know if the Pens will be patient. They should.. seeing how Dumo and many others have succeeded with additional time, but I just feel the Pens will be impatient on this one.

edit: And you know what, if I'm a team who is young/upcoming, I would reach out to JR and let him develop. He could be a gem with the right development. I'm looking at a team like Detroit who would really like to have that in the system.

I suspect if DP can't develop in the Pens system, he won't do it anywhere else.

The Pens are proving to be quite apt at developing blueliners, and rehabbing trash heap guys like Daley, Nisky, Schultz and Cole.

DP just needs to play. No mystery there.

Most people have no idea how comically bad Schultz was in Edm. DP's game last night would have been a pretty good game for Schultz the last 1.5 seasons in Edm - no joke.

Nisky was a mess in Dallas as well.

They just got the right coaching in Pgh and playing time, which is crucial.

If the Pens don't want to be patient with DP, I'm not sure who in the system they believe will step in to replace Schultz/Daley next season. I don't see anyone who can do that yet...

 

[Ogrezilla]

Olli had his strongest game of the year, imo.

Only guy who didn't play well was Pouliot. Fehr wasn't wonderful, but I wouldn't say he was a negative, exactly.

Fehr played a solid game for a 13th forward certainly. Let's just hope that continues to be his role if we get healthy.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think 14 and 72 were incredible tonight. I was listening to Sully's post game as i was heading to late night hockey and he was talking about helping Geno in a different way. He talked about how Phil helps him with having a weapon out there, but Geno wants to carry the puck. He said 14 and 72 don't want the puck on their stick in the neutral zone. They want to go get it and forecheck hard. Sully went on to say he thinks that helps Geno get the puck more, even though it's not a holding on possession game. I sort of agree, even though I hate that line. It did work tonight. I don't think it's sustainable, but tonight it was a one solid game out of 20, as you put it.

Also from the presser, Sully wants nothing to do with loading the top 6. He wants depth the whole way. He's been very outspoken about it.

That was definitely Kunitz and Horny's best games of the year. I would not have seen that coming on a line together

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm the opposite, Pens fan who has been a big Oilers fan since '96.

Schultz earned his nickname in Edm and he did visibly give up/go into self-preservation mode the last few months he was there. It was frustrating to see and when the trade went down, I wasn't as mad as I thought I'd be.

I saw what he could do offensively when he actually tried, so I suspected he would put up points. He was a train wreck in his own end though, but I figured he would be a seventh guy that subbed in when needed.

However, he was basically handed the job over Pouliot for no reason, and that bothered me though. He was given sheltered minutes through the playoffs and did well, can't knock him there.

He started the first 15-20 games this season playing poorly, especially struggling to even get shots on net and I thought he needed to sit.

Since then something has really clicked and his confidence took off. He is doing everything well right now and he's slowly growing on me. However, my fear of him quitting on the Pens if they struggle badly is always in the back of my mind.

To his credit, it's been mentioned several times by the coaching staff that he has put in a lot of after practice work, including video sessions, to get better. So I can respect that he is taking advantage of his situation.

You keep saying that even though there was a very obvious reason for it. Pouliot forced someone onto their off side of the ice. Schultz didn't. That's the reason. And its legit. You may not like the reason, but its absolutely a valid reason.

I suspect if DP can't develop in the Pens system, he won't do it anywhere else.

The Pens are proving to be quite apt at developing blueliners, and rehabbing trash heap guys like Daley, Nisky, Schultz and Cole.

DP just needs to play. No mystery there.

Most people have no idea how comically bad Schultz was in Edm. DP's game last night would have been a pretty good game for Schultz the last 1.5 seasons in Edm - no joke.

Nisky was a mess in Dallas as well.

They just got the right coaching in Pgh and playing time, which is crucial.

If the Pens don't want to be patient with DP, I'm not sure who in the system they believe will step in to replace Schultz/Daley next season. I don't see anyone who can do that yet...

Completely agree here. We have to give DP more time to work his way into a spot. He was doing it last year. It took more than 2 games then, too. Its still way too early to give up on him. Dumo took a while. Hell, Sheary was a mess for a month or two when he first came up. It would be a big mistake to give up on DP considering he has shown to be able to play on a 3rd pairing, and considering how much we will likely need him next year. Even just losing Daley would open up a spot for him. But if we lose Daley and Schultz, we would be downright desperate for DP even just for the 3rd pairing.

 

[ColePens]

You keep saying that even though there was a very obvious reason for it. Pouliot forced someone onto their off side of the ice. Schultz didn't. That's the reason. And its legit. You may not like the reason, but its absolutely a valid reason.

Meeeh I sort of agree with both of you. I know Tocchet was big on right/left handers being equal on defense. Cole/DP, however, was actually the pairing that started to progress very well. DP was randomly taken out and Schultz was put in, even though DP did nothing to deserve being benched. Schultz took the ball, ran with it, and has never looked back.

But if it's just in regards to a guy being left or right handed, I feel that is a bit strange. But hey... Schultz also played to keep the spot. I've just never seen a guy benched because he wasn't right handed. DP was playing the best hockey of his career.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Meeeh I sort of agree with both of you. I know Tocchet was big on right/left handers being equal on defense. Cole/DP, however, was actually the pairing that started to progress very well. DP was randomly taken out and Schultz was put in, even though DP did nothing to deserve being benched. Schultz took the ball, ran with it, and has never looked back.

But if it's just in regards to a guy being left or right handed, I feel that is a bit strange. But hey... Schultz also played to keep the spot. I've just never seen a guy benched because he wasn't right handed. DP was playing the best hockey of his career.

I hated the move when it happened. I'm just saying there was a reason. Call it a ****** reason and I won't really argue. Like I said, I was not at all happy when we did it.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Cole was able to play the other side as we know so that kind of refutes that reasoning, but not totally. Just because he could play it doesn't mean it was optimal. An obvious reason Schultz was inserted was the fact that we gave up something to get him.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Cole was able to play the other side as we know so that kind of refutes that reasoning, but not totally. Just because he could play it doesn't mean it was optimal. An obvious reason Schultz was inserted was the fact that we gave up something to get him.

Yeah, Cole played well last year on the right. I'm surprised they haven't just put him back with DP this year.

As for giving up something, that makes even less sense to me. We gave up a 1st round pick to get Pouliot. I guess they knew we needed to play Schultz to get him to sign back with us though. Or to decide if we even wanted him to sign back with us.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I am a big Pouliot fan, and I think he will be more than fine. I think we have the luxury of patience with him. He will receive invaluable game action these next few weeks, and then when both Letang and Daley return I fully expect him to head back to the AHL.

One thing I find interesting is that people think Pouliot is playing too aggressively, not structured enough, etc. I think he should be even more aggressive, even more offense-minded. Play a roving style more. And you know what, he seems to be by far the most comfortable on the right side over guys like Dumoulin and Maatta. It's not close. It seems they want to reign him in, but I would just let him loose. I know teams don't do that with young players, but Pouliot seems to be most comfortable when the game is scrambly, helter skelter. Not unlike Letang, though he does not possess the physical gifts Letang owns. That said, Pouliot is MUCH smarter than Letang. I think that much is obvious just by watching them play. Schultz is also smarter than Letang, but Pouliot has the potential to be our smartest offensive defenseman. Maatta is clearly our smartest defenseman, overall.

Speaking of Maatta, he is developing into a real defensive stud. I know people want offense from him but on this team Maatta is turning into an invaluable shutdown guy. People compared him to Nicklas Lidstrom when he was a rookie, but to me Maatta is turning into our own version of Niklas Hjalmarsson. There will be some offense, but first and foremost there will be steadiness, shot suppression, big minutes...heck, Maatta is even starting to hit more and more. I love the way he is developing. We have offense elsewhere, what he is bringing will benefit this team come playoff time.

It was a great win. They really took the will out of the Rangers last night. Everybody up front was flying. That all said, for the life of me I cannot understand or get behind splitting up Malkin and Kessel. Since James Neal was traded, we have been wondering/hoping/searching for a player who can combine with Malkin. He and Kessel have been nothing short of excellent together. They have used a myriad of left-wingers but the production has remained constant. Sure, Kunitz-Malkin-Hornqvist looked great last night, but we all know that won't last. Malkin-Kessel should be etched in stone by now.

I suppose it is a minor complaint at this point, but I am quite certain we will need to go back to it fairly soon. Furthermore, a bigger winger for Crosby would be nice, too. I don't like seeing him as the clear biggest player on his line, but both Sheary and Rust are good with 87. Then again, everybody produces with 87 these days, except maybe Hagelin.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Er, I can't say I agree with any single clause in this paragraph. Aside from picking up prostitutes, what's Del Zotto better than Schultz at? And actually, he's not even good at that, since they name and shame him on twitter in retaliation for how annoying he is.

Debatable appraisal of Michael Del Zotto's abilities aside, his last contract was a bridge deal to get him to free agency. Schultz has just one more RFA season left, which will be next season.

I see only two possibilities:

1. A one year deal to get him to unrestricted free agency in 2018
2. A long term deal, with salary to match

Anything longer than one year and you're buying UFA years. That costs you.

I used the Del Zotto comparison because he was another young D who got ran out of town only to rebound on his new team. I think Del Zotto in 2014-2015 (before he signed that $3.875 million contract) was a good player, he was averaging half a PPG on defense while getting a ton of hits and blocked shots and playing top pair minutes for the Flyers. That got him 2 years at $3.875 million, one of which was a UFA year (I believe, I think he would have been a UFA in 2016 if he only signed a 1 year deal).

I see it like he's playing like Niskanen right before he got paid.

That's a valid comparison, but the big difference between the two is that Niskanen was a UFA and Schultz was a RFA. If Schultz makes it to UFA next summer while not falling off a cliff, he'll be getting close to a Niskanen contract without a doubt.

Also, as someone who's a fan of Pouliot, I'd trade him immediately if it meant giving him a chance on a team who would use him. The guy simply needs to play at the NHL to develop further, he's a wasted asset if he's not going to be used.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

One point that I have not seen anyone make so far is that perhaps the idea of the Pens sandbagging it some early in the year, along with being worn out with playing the most hockey in the league last year, has some merit.

For the first time in memory there has not been a rotating door onto the IR list, nor are the Pens anywhere close to the most man games lost. Early in the year the Pens were way down on the CF% chart, they have lapped everyone for the past month. They have climbed to 6th overall, but their play of late is much higher and evocative of their play from January on last year when they were simply better than anyone else.

I am not saying that theory is true, there is no way of knowing. I am saying if so it is some brilliant coaching of a team who knows when the games really count and is working on the best chance at another cup.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You keep saying that even though there was a very obvious reason for it. Pouliot forced someone onto their off side of the ice. Schultz didn't. That's the reason. And its legit. You may not like the reason, but its absolutely a valid reason.

DP and Cole were playing very well together and Cole had been playing extremely well on both sides before Schultz came along.

DP also played the right side quite frequently in jrs and the A, and he actually played better on that side than the left from all the times I watched him (jrs/A).

So ya, the whole righty thing isn't nearly as valid as Schultz being given that slot because he was their "big" deadline acquisition.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Yeah, Cole played well last year on the right. I'm surprised they haven't just put him back with DP this year.

As for giving up something, that makes even less sense to me. We gave up a 1st round pick to get Pouliot. I guess they knew we needed to play Schultz to get him to sign back with us though. Or to decide if we even wanted him to sign back with us.

Yeah I just meant in the short term they made a trade and likely wanted to see a return on it. I don't have a problem with Pouliot but I also don't think he's anything special at this point, so if they brought a guy in with the hope of said guy playing on the bottom pair, it doesn't surprise me that's the guy who played.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

As for Murray, his stats are the best in the league when you consider the Pens preferred style of play and how many odd man breaks that the Pens give up. Style of play of a team makes a huge difference in a goalie's stats. As we have seen when teams sign a goalie from a defensive system and they get lit up on their new team. Or vice versa.

I shudder to think what Murray would do on a trapping defense first style team. Maybe give up one goal every three games.

 

[Pancakes]

For as useful as advanced stats are, Kunitz is the poster boy for how advanced stats still have their limitations. I mean, at one point despite his good advanced stats, his "actual" production was something mind boggingly bad like 2 goals in 30 games playing alongside Sid or Geno.

I mean, he was good tonight, so it's probably not the best time to be ripping on him. But, man. If people want to ever convince other hockey fans about the merits of advanced stats, be sure to exclude Kunitz as an example in their favor.

I don't know that it's necessarily a flaw in advanced stats. There are a ton of guys who have great Corsi but don't score much. That doesn't mean that they're not useful players to have.

But one thing you do have to look at with Kunitz is that he starts about 50% of his shifts in the offensive zone. His corsi SHOULD be good. It's far easier to generate shots (and therefore a higher Corsi) when you start almost every shift in the offensive zone.


Conversely someone like Cullen who I believe is running around a 50% CF is extremely impressive because he takes the lion's share of our defensive zone assignments.

It's also easier to score in when you start a lot of shifts in the o-zone. That year where Sid won the Rocket but Henrik Sedin edged him out for the Ross Vigneault started the Sedins something like 70% of the time in the offensive zone. Sid on the other hand took tougher draws and assignments.

I can only imagine the points Sid would put up if his coaches decided to deploy him exclusively in an offensive role like what was done with the Sedins.


My point with this rambling tangent is that Corsi is a nifty indicator of success but you also have to use context. A guy who starts 40% of his shifts in the d-zone and is a negative CF player isn't necessarily a bad player he's just being put into really tough situations. Same thing on the flipside with a player who starts a lot in the o-zone and has a favorable CF.

 

[Ogrezilla]

DP and Cole were playing very well together and Cole had been playing extremely well on both sides before Schultz came along.

DP also played the right side quite frequently in jrs and the A, and he actually played better on that side than the left from all the times I watched him (jrs/A).

So ya, the whole righty thing isn't nearly as valid as Schultz being given that slot because he was their "big" deadline acquisition.

thinking its a bad reason doesn't mean its not a reason. That's all I'm saying. Wanting to see if Schultz was worth keeping was also a reason. You can disagree with the reasons, but there are definitely reasons for it. What sucks for DP is that none of those reasons had anything to do with what he was doing.

 

[Pancakes]

One point that I have not seen anyone make so far is that perhaps the idea of the Pens sandbagging it some early in the year, along with being worn out with playing the most hockey in the league last year, has some merit.

For the first time in memory there has not been a rotating door onto the IR list, nor are the Pens anywhere close to the most man games lost. Early in the year the Pens were way down on the CF% chart, they have lapped everyone for the past month. They have climbed to 6th overall, but their play of late is much higher and evocative of their play from January on last year when they were simply better than anyone else.

I am not saying that theory is true, there is no way of knowing. I am saying if so it is some brilliant coaching of a team who knows when the games really count and is working on the best chance at another cup.

I don't think the team is consciously sandbagging it. It's just hard to keep up the kind of post March intensity we saw last season for a full 82 games. It's hard to have the legs to do that either.

Statistically we are starting to look like the team we all expected us to be though. I have no doubt we'll have a few bad stretches throughout the year still to come, but we're going to be a beast of a team all season long - health permitting.

Kessel and Murray really have turned us into a juggernaut. We have three elite threats on forward plus one of the best goalies in the whole league? Totally ridiculous. This is what we all envisioned for years when we begged Shero to go out and get a premium winger so that Sid and Gene didn't have to do it all themselves. Now we finally see it. Better late than never I suppose.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

One point that I have not seen anyone make so far is that perhaps the idea of the Pens sandbagging it some early in the year, along with being worn out with playing the most hockey in the league last year, has some merit.

For the first time in memory there has not been a rotating door onto the IR list, nor are the Pens anywhere close to the most man games lost. Early in the year the Pens were way down on the CF% chart, they have lapped everyone for the past month. They have climbed to 6th overall, but their play of late is much higher and evocative of their play from January on last year when they were simply better than anyone else.

I am not saying that theory is true, there is no way of knowing. I am saying if so it is some brilliant coaching of a team who knows when the games really count and is working on the best chance at another cup.

I don't disagree with that, it's a long season, they had a deep run and they don't play an easy style. There was always going to be some sluggishness in the beginning as well, so I wouldn't discount that as part of it. The problem is that flipping a switch mentality and how dangerous it is. That's got to be handled properly while trying to keep them reasonably healthy and fresh.

As for Murray, his stats are the best in the league when you consider the Pens preferred style of play and how many odd man breaks that the Pens give up. Style of play of a team makes a huge difference in a goalie's stats. As we have seen when teams sign a goalie from a defensive system and they get lit up on their new team. Or vice versa.

I shudder to think what Murray would do on a trapping defense first style team. Maybe give up one goal every three games.

A drop in the soft goals would be scary and I think playing time and time in general will help with that.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

thinking its a bad reason doesn't mean its not a reason. That's all I'm saying. Wanting to see if Schultz was worth keeping was also a reason. You can disagree with the reasons, but there are definitely reasons for it. What sucks for DP is that none of those reasons had anything to do with what he was doing.

Sullivan felt his reasoning was sound, or he felt pressured to do it because JR traded for him... sort of like he felt pressure to play MAF in a pivotal moment during the playoffs.

I just didn't like it, but it worked out. The world goes on.

Like you said though, DP did nothing wrong and now his confidence is in the toilet. He has the talent to help this team offensively more than any blueliner, save Letang. So it's a real shame to see him scared to even handle the puck now.

He just looks weird to me. Barely recognize the ultra talented player I watched countless times and I think it all started with his unnecessary benching last spring.... he probably keeps thinking he ****ed up somehow and keeps trying to compensate and change his game and he needs the puck on his stick to make things happen... it's a huge catch 22.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I've never watched DP anywhere but the NHL. I guess I'll take your word for how good DP can be. As is, I've never seen him play anywhere near the level that Schultz is playing lately. So its less upsetting for me I guess.

 

[wgknestrick]

Good news is Schultz already got paid fairly well entering the league. Also, we are the team who turned his career around( guy would've been out of the league eventually if he stayed in Edmonton). So let's say hes still looking for that big payday, knowing we can't afford it, I can see him doing the Pens a solid and signing a 2 year -3mil type contract. Then cash in. Something along those lines. I can't see him dipping out right after the season after what this team just did for his career.

Go leave your current job for 80% less money. Go ahead. Do it. If you won't take 80% of what you can make, then don't preach to others when they don't . These guys HAVE to make as much money as they can now...when they can. They spent their entire life to have a 6-8yr work window (on average).

 

[ncm7772]

Fehr played a solid game for a 13th forward certainly. Let's just hope that continues to be his role if we get healthy.

Agreed. Certainly one of his better games of the year. Still not near where he was in the playoffs, but knowing he can still have a solid game after being a healthy scratch for a while is encouraging.

 

[wgknestrick]

As for Murray, his stats are the best in the league when you consider the Pens preferred style of play and how many odd man breaks that the Pens give up. Style of play of a team makes a huge difference in a goalie's stats. As we have seen when teams sign a goalie from a defensive system and they get lit up on their new team. Or vice versa.

I shudder to think what Murray would do on a trapping defense first style team. Maybe give up one goal every three games.

The startling thing is the Grand Canyon gulf between MAF and MM's stats while playing for the same team.