Post-Game Talk: Pens (6) sleep walk through blowout win of supposed NHL team (1)

[Empoleon8771]

Kessel 2015 stats: 37 games, 11 goals and 21 points (pace of 24 goals and 47 points)
Kessel 2016 stats: 28 games, 9 goals and 22 points (pace of 27 goals and 65 points)

Now which is more likely, Kessel is only a 50 point player now or Kessel just didn't have a smooth transition to a new team after like 7 years on his old team? Kessel only had bad production in 2015, which not surprisingly was mostly under 2 idiot coaches.

 

[Shady Machine]

Kessel 2015 stats: 37 games, 11 goals and 21 points (pace of 24 goals and 47 points)
Kessel 2016 stats: 28 games, 9 goals and 22 points (pace of 27 goals and 65 points)

Now which is more likely, Kessel is only a 50 point player now or Kessel just didn't have a smooth transition to a new team after like 7 years on his old team? Kessel only had bad production in 2015, which not surprisingly was mostly under 2 idiot coaches.

Those stats are interesting and encouraging, but I'd like to see a bigger sample size before I say this Phil Kessel is a 65 point player. I bet if you did Hornqvist's stats in 2015 vs 2016, it'd say he's an 80 point player or something.

 

[IcedCapp]

Part of the issue is Kessel is an emotional guy. Not outwardly emotional, but **** weighs on him. The longer this slump lasts, the longer it just weighs on his shoulders. Sullivan has to be careful how he deals with him. Once he gets going, he'll score in bunches, but he has to get going.

 

[Old Gregg]

Part of the issue is Kessel is an emotional guy. Not outwardly emotional, but **** weighs on him. The longer this slump lasts, the longer it just weighs on his shoulders. Sullivan has to be careful how he deals with him. Once he gets going, he'll score in bunches, but he has to get going.

Well, I mean, he had a couple goals in that game when they had him with Sid but instead of seeing how that played out they put him back with Cullen after 4 solid periods

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

It's usually safe to blame Johnston for pretty much anything whether you're actually right or not, but I see virtually no difference in the way Kessel plays now compared to the beginning of the year.

 

[pistolpete11]

What teams would feasibly be looking to trade for a starting goalie in the 2017 offseason? Calgary? Edmonton? Vancouver?

Toronto maybe?

 

[Pancakes]

It's usually safe to blame Johnston for pretty much anything whether you're actually right or not, but I see virtually no difference in the way Kessel plays now compared to the beginning of the year.

He's looked better on the powerplay since Sullivan took over, but other than that I agree.

 

[IcedCapp]

Well, I mean, he had a couple goals in that game when they had him with Sid but instead of seeing how that played out they put him back with Cullen after 4 solid periods

I can't possibly begin to understand Sullivan's lineup decisions over the past two weeks.

 

[Pancakes]

I can't possibly begin to understand Sullivan's lineup decisions over the past two weeks.

Moving Kunitz off of Sid's line but still in the top six has to be a deliberate troll on Sullivan's part.

 

[IcedCapp]

Moving Kunitz off of Sid's line but still in the top six has to be a deliberate troll on Sullivan's part.

So much of what the organization says and does makes it seem like they're aware and antagonistic towards us...

 

[SEALBound]

It's usually safe to blame Johnston for pretty much anything whether you're actually right or not, but I see virtually no difference in the way Kessel plays now compared to the beginning of the year.

I gotta go with this. I believe that the general elevation of the teams play has proportionally elevated his but I'm not seeing the $8mil man that was in Toronto.

And before anyone says anything, the transition time is done. It's over. In the same manner we can blame any of Maatta's matters on being a rookie, we can't blame concussions on Sid, we can't blame MAF for letting in bad goals 8-10 years ago messing with his psyche. Transition time is done. It's up. 5-10 games, sure. 50...yeah no, it's done. He's an all-star, $8mil wing...he can adjust.

Yes, his last coach in Toronto was a shmuck, yes, Johnston was a shmuck, yes he's getting used to Sullivan...doesn't matter. He's a professional hockey player playing in the National Hockey League. He can adjust. Transition time...is done...it's over. I'm sick and tired of hearing about how much transition time he needs...screw it! This is his time to start producing. He just needs to go out there and take it.

I will never argue that he isn't a good player. He is. I love his skill and his speed, hate his softness. At the end of the day, he's a good player. I just don't believe he's the right player.

 

[pistolpete11]

I gotta go with this. I believe that the general elevation of the teams play has proportionally elevated his but I'm not seeing the $8mil man that was in Toronto.

And before anyone says anything, the transition time is done. It's over. In the same manner we can blame any of Maatta's matters on being a rookie, we can't blame concussions on Sid, we can't blame MAF for letting in bad goals 8-10 years ago messing with his psyche. Transition time is done. It's up. 5-10 games, sure. 50...yeah no, it's done. He's an all-star, $8mil wing...he can adjust.

Yes, his last coach in Toronto was a shmuck, yes, Johnston was a shmuck, yes he's getting used to Sullivan...doesn't matter. He's a professional hockey player playing in the National Hockey League. He can adjust. Transition time...is done...it's over. I'm sick and tired of hearing about how much transition time he needs...screw it! This is his time to start producing. He just needs to go out there and take it.

I will never argue that he isn't a good player. He is. I love his skill and his speed, hate his softness. At the end of the day, he's a good player. I just don't believe he's the right player.

I agree that the transition excuse is over, but what is producing? Since Sully took over, pretty much any stretch of games you look at, he is producing at a 60+ point pace. Given the rest of his game, maybe that’s not enough.

 

[Shady Machine]

I gotta go with this. I believe that the general elevation of the teams play has proportionally elevated his but I'm not seeing the $8mil man that was in Toronto.

And before anyone says anything, the transition time is done. It's over. In the same manner we can blame any of Maatta's matters on being a rookie, we can't blame concussions on Sid, we can't blame MAF for letting in bad goals 8-10 years ago messing with his psyche. Transition time is done. It's up. 5-10 games, sure. 50...yeah no, it's done. He's an all-star, $8mil wing...he can adjust.

Yes, his last coach in Toronto was a shmuck, yes, Johnston was a shmuck, yes he's getting used to Sullivan...doesn't matter. He's a professional hockey player playing in the National Hockey League. He can adjust. Transition time...is done...it's over. I'm sick and tired of hearing about how much transition time he needs...screw it! This is his time to start producing. He just needs to go out there and take it.

I will never argue that he isn't a good player. He is. I love his skill and his speed, hate his softness. At the end of the day, he's a good player. I just don't believe he's the right player.

You may be right that he's not the "right player" but who is and how do we get that player? Neal wasn't the right player, Dupuis and Kunitz were never good enough for Crosby, Iginla wasn't good here, Perron wasn't the right player, etc.

I just don't know that we can move Kessel, without retaining, and get a better return than we paid.

 

[SEALBound]

I agree that the transition excuse is over, but what is producing? Since Sully took over, pretty much any stretch of games you look at, he is producing at a 60+ point pace. Given the rest of his game, maybe that’s not enough.

If you are making north of $7mil, I'm expecting PPG. And that's not unreasonable given who he is playing with. You can find a $3.5mil guy that can produce 60pts with Malkin given the right fit.

You may be right that he's not the "right player" but who is and how do we get that player? Neal wasn't the right player, Dupuis and Kunitz were never good enough for Crosby, Iginla wasn't good here, Perron wasn't the right player, etc.

I just don't know that we can move Kessel, without retaining, and get a better return than we paid.

Tough question, one that I may not have an answer to. I thought Neal was the right player for Malkin given the proper 3rd wheel like a Kunitz. I understand why we let him go though and I'm happy with the return.

Right player could be Laine or Puljujarvi

 

[Shady Machine]

Tough question, one that I may not have an answer to. I thought Neal was the right player for Malkin given the proper 3rd wheel like a Kunitz. I understand why we let him go though and I'm happy with the return.

Right player could be Laine or Puljujarvi

I agree it's a tough question to answer. Let's see what Kessel does down the stretch and in the playoffs before we seriously talk about it.

I think we still have the opportunity to upgrade the top 6 without moving Kessel. If you can find a top 6 LW to replace Kunitz, it may not matter if Kessel isn't a great fit.

 

[plaidchuck]

Neal was very much the right player.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just because Kessel is really good doesn't mean he can flawlessly transition on to a new team in a completely different role. It took Gonchar over a season to transition into the D he was for us the rest of his time. Martin was a skating abortion in his second year after a subpar first season. That's an incredibly stupid way to look at it. These guys aren't players on NHL 16, they're people too. Kessel has had his situation completely changed, I'm not going to write him off because he had a rough first 40 or so games with the Pens. Just like I didn't write off Gonchar in 2006.

Neal was very much the right player.

He was so much the right player that he was held pointless in probably around 80% of playoff games while he was here.

 

[pistolpete11]

If you are making north of $7mil, I'm expecting PPG. And that's not unreasonable given who he is playing with. You can find a $3.5mil guy that can produce 60pts with Malkin given the right fit.



Tough question, one that I may not have an answer to. I thought Neal was the right player for Malkin given the proper 3rd wheel like a Kunitz. I understand why we let him go though and I'm happy with the return.

Right player could be Laine or Puljujarvi

There are 7 forwards (2 of which are on ELC or RFA deals, McDavid and Kuznetsov) that are playing at a point per game pace and 21 forwards with a higher cap hit than the Pens are paying Kessel.

I agree he should be scoring a little bit more than he is especially given the holes in the rest of his game, but if you're saying PPG pace or dump him, I think that's pretty harsh.

 

[SEALBound]

There are 7 forwards (2 of which are on ELC or RFA deals, McDavid and Kuznetsov) that are playing at a point per game pace and 21 forwards with a higher cap hit than the Pens are paying Kessel.

I agree he should be scoring a little bit more than he is especially given the holes in the rest of his game, but if you're saying PPG pace or dump him, I think that's pretty harsh.

Yes and no. We need that production. We have a lot of money tied up in large assets that hampers our ability to bring in quality depth at all positions. We have holes. We need the top paid assets to produce at a level that fills those holes.

We can't have a 6.8mil glider. We need a 40g, 75-80pt wing out of Kessel. Playing with Malkin or Crosby, not unreasonable. We need that. We can't fill every hole. Bringing him in was a method of helping close other gaps.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If he can be a 25-30g 65 PT player who can score in the playoffs against good defenses who can slow sid and Geno down, I'll take that over 40 goal 80 point Neal who disappeared when Geno was at all slowed down. That's what will decide if hes worth his contract, not 10 regular season goals.

He might not do it. But he certainly hasn't failed to do it before having the opportunity.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes and no. We need that production. We have a lot of money tied up in large assets that hampers our ability to bring in quality depth at all positions. We have holes. We need the top paid assets to produce at a level that fills those holes.

We can't have a 6.8mil glider. We need a 40g, 75-80pt wing out of Kessel. Playing with Malkin or Crosby, not unreasonable. We need that. We can't fill every hole. Bringing him in was a method of helping close other gaps.

So, did the Penguins fan base just jump the shark?

If you are a 80 pt winger you aren't getting paid 6.8 mil in today's NHL.

 

[SEALBound]

If he can be a 25-30g 65 PT player who can score in the playoffs against good defenses who can slow sid and Geno down, I'll take that over 40 goal 80 point Neal who disappeared when Geno was at all slowed down. That's what will decide if hes worth his contract, not 10 regular season goals.

He might not do it. But he certainly hasn't failed to do it before having the opportunity.

Agreed. I will be reserving ultimatey judgement until I see how he performs in the playoffs. However, this isn't like past years where playoffs were almost automatic...we need to "make the playoffs" first. So dismissing regular season performance is no longer a valid argument.

So, did the Penguins fan base just jump the shark?

If you are a 80 pt winger you aren't getting paid 6.8 mil in today's NHL.

You're right, they'd be getting $8mil...oh wait...

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well he was much worse than the 25-30g line I said I'd be OK with. He can't be a 50 PT player here. But I'm not worried about that really. that issue was far beyond just kessel.

 

[Gurglesons]

You're right, they'd be getting $8mil...oh wait...

I mean Kessel is actually getting paid 10 million this year if you want to argue that, but he's going to probably end up putting up sixty points which is exactly what most players in his price range are doing this year..

Also, I like the argument that we could just easily throw a player on Malkin's wing and he'd produce like that no matter what.

 

[SEALBound]

Well he was much worse than the 25-30g line I said I'd be OK with. He can't be a 50 PT player here. But I'm not worried about that really. that issue was far beyond just kessel.

This is true. We really need to be rid of Kunitz and get a legit LW that will compliment both Sid and Geno.

To me, Hagelin-Sid-Horny makes a lot of sense. Finding a compliment to Geno-Phil should be top priority. Not sure if that's Hagelin or not yet over the long term.