Post-Game Talk: Pens 6 Sabres 1 | Secondary Sid's Big Night

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Couple thing I want to comment on based on the overall discussions going on.

1. James Neal isn't lazy, yes he went from playing like a power forward to playing like more of a sniper, but it wasn't because he didn't want to put in the effort. I would imagine he did it because it was so d*mn effective for so long. Why go crashing around the paint when all you have to do is find a soft spot and let a gifted playmaker get it to you and let her rip.

2. DB isn't an awful coach. He has strengths and weaknesses just like any other. Particularly as a fit with this org. He's a guy players want to play for and can get the most out of his grinders. Unfortunately his system stifles creativity, was to rigid, and he was too stubborn (both systematically and personnel wise).

That's is all, nothing that hasn't been said 100 times but I fell like certain hyperbolic narratives take a life of there own on here as if they were factual. Neal is lazy, Bylsma is stupid, can win a cup with ____ (usually Fleury) etc.

Neal was lazy. It's not hyperbole. Being a sniper doesn't preclude you from board work, being a puck hound and going to the net.

I've asked this question over and over and the pro-Neal crowd always avoids it, because the answer is obvious:

Why would a contending org trade away a 40 goal scorer on a sweetheart deal?

As for DB, I've defended him on numerous occasions and especially laid in to people who called him a moron. Morons don't help pen two successful books and coach in the NHL. However, as I argued again and again, his stubbornness was always going to be his undoing.

Only a rare few on here didn't see that about DB until last spring.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I agree that he did a couple of good things here but to say he's a good fit in any job in the NHL.. I have to disagree and the only reason I don't think he's NHL caliber is he's going to keep ramming that square peg into the circle hole relentlessly like he did here.

I'd point to Therrien and Nolan having jobs as equally indicative that the square-peg-round-hole approach doesn't mean you won't have a job.

Bylsma may never work for a contender again, but coaches, like players do develop and change-- sometimes. And like Jiggy points out, warts-and-all Bylsma has done well in certain contexts. It just depends on whether or not Bylsma's going to take any thing away from the experience, and I don't think any of us know the man well enough to make a prediction about that right now.

 

[Boocock]

I agree that he did a couple of good things here but to say he's a good fit in any job in the NHL.. I have to disagree and the only reason I don't think he's NHL caliber is he's going to keep ramming that square peg into the circle hole relentlessly like he did here.

I think he could do a great job with a team that's looking to make the playoffs for the first time and lacks the talented players to do so. His Jack Adams Award coaching job during the second half of the 2010-11 season cannot be denied. However, he's simply not a great playoff coach.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Neal was lazy. It's not hyperbole. Being a sniper doesn't preclude you from board work, being a puck hound and going to the net.

I've asked this question over and over and the pro-Neal crowd always avoids it, because the answer is obvious:

Why would a contending org trade away a 40 goal scorer on a sweetheart deal?

As for DB, I've defended him on numerous occasions and especially laid in to people who called him a moron. Morons don't help pen two successful books and coach in the NHL. However, as I argued again and again, his stubbornness was always going to be his undoing.

Only a rare few on here didn't see that about DB until last spring.

1. I guess some people just see what they want to.

2. To answer your question, because it made them better. Hornqvist is a better player/fit and you get Spaling for free. Im not claiming Neal was Gods gift to hockey. Im saying his change in playing style is not from lack of effort but a conscience attempt to be open for shooting opportunities rather than crash and bang in the corners and around the net.

3. Yeah DB was very stubborn/arrogant both in his system and player usage.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think he could do a great job with a team that's looking to make the playoffs for the first time and lacks the talented players to do so. His Jack Adams Award coaching job during the second half of the 2010-11 season cannot be denied. However, he's simply not a great playoff coach.

Yeah. If he ever got himself out of that "no-line-matching rut" I'd actually venture out on a limb and say Bylsma would/will go down as an above average coach. Certainly not Bowman-esque, but a good guy to go to for certain kinds of physical, vet-heavy teams.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1. I guess some people just see what they want to.

Yep, they do. Like 40 goals and ignoring everything else.

2. To answer your question, because it made them better. Hornqvist is a better player/fit and you get Spaling for free. Im not claiming Neal was Gods gift to hockey. Im saying his change in playing style is not from lack of effort but a conscience attempt to be open for shooting opportunities rather than crash and bang in the corners and around the net.

Saying he had to become a floater because he was a sniper is flat out silly.

You are basically admitting he was lazy, that's the part that is mind boggling.

Some of the best snipers I ever saw worked hard and weren't afraid to go to the net. Hull, Bossy, Hedjuk, Kurri... Those guys played hard and mucked it up in the corners and in front of the net... They weren't afraid to get their noses dirty to score goals. It is a complete myth that a sniper has to float to score goals.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Alright, alright, alright.

We may soon find out which line MJ and his staff like more. The 3rd line or the 2nd, depending where Beau is placed. (Downie's at practice, usual line)

Should be interesting.

Beau better be in the NY or the 'Burgh already, preparing for tommorows game day skate. If he's not, then srs facepalm.jpg.

 

[Shady Machine]

This is my preference:

Kunitz-Crosby-Hornqvist
Comeau-Malkin-Bennett
Dupuis-Sutter-Downie
Spaling-Goc-Adams/Sill

That puts us one top 6 winger away from a really good forward lineup.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Yep, they do. Like 40 goals and ignoring everything else.



Saying he had to become a floater because he was a sniper is flat out silly.

You are basically admitting he was lazy, that's the part that is mind boggling.

Some of the best snipers I ever saw worked hard and weren't afraid to go to the net. Hull, Bossy, Hedjuk, Kurri... Those guys played hard and mucked it up in the corners and in front of the net... They weren't afraid to get their noses dirty to score goals. It is a complete myth that a sniper has to float to score goals.

1. Or just so happen to miss every time he won a board battle or hit some one. I guess that's ok. Like I said im not saying he did theses things enough, im saying it wasn't because he didn't want to put in the effort.

2. Most snipers float. Most players are not well rounded. It doesn't make them lazy it makes them flawed. Expecting James Neal to play like Hall of Famers is a just a tad bit of a reach don't you think?

Fact is that Neal has one of the best shots and releases in the league, unfortunately instead of playing a well rounded game and letting that skill set him apart, he leaned on it and because one dimensional. That's not the same thing laziness.

Being passive and lazy are two completely separate things.

 

[WayneSid9987]

This is my preference:

Kunitz-Crosby-Hornqvist
Comeau-Malkin-Bennett
Dupuis-Sutter-Downie
Spaling-Goc-Adams/Sill

That puts us one top 6 winger away from a really good forward lineup.

I can dig it.
Perhaps MJ keeps the 3rd line together and drops Duper to the 4th line.
See what i'm sayin? It's gonna be interesting.

 

[ColePens]

Comeau is so important to our bottom 6. I hate trying to make him a top 6 player where he just flat out doesn't fit. It sucks. Hopefully something can come of it.

I would also let Sill/Adams alternate games. Let them fight eachother for a spot.

 

[Shady Machine]

I can dig it.
Perhaps MJ keeps the 3rd line together and drops Duper to the 4th line.
See what i'm sayin? It's gonna be interesting.

seniority and locker room stuff matters too much for MJ to do that. Spaling started the year on the 4th line, I believe, and that's where he will likely end up if we stay healthy.

 

[Shady Machine]

Comeau is so important to our bottom 6. I hate trying to make him a top 6 player where he just flat out doesn't fit. It sucks. Hopefully something can come of it.

I would also let Sill/Adams alternate games. Let them fight eachother for a spot.

Well when you have 8 bottom 6 players and 4-5 top 6 players, someone has to be a 2nd liner. Since IMO Duper and Malkin have negative chemistry, I'd prefer it to be Comeau.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I would also let Sill/Adams fight eachother.

Fixed.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Like I said im not saying he did theses things enough, im saying it wasn't because he didn't want to put in the effort.

Of course it was because he didn't put in the effort. That's the whole point.

2. Most snipers float. Most players are not well rounded. It doesn't make them lazy it makes them flawed. Expecting James Neal to play like Hall of Famers is a just a tad bit of a reach don't you think?

Being a sniper doesn't mean you float. Neal chose to float because winning board battles and going to the net required effort. Being a puck hound requires moving your feet and trying. Neal wanted nothing to do with those things and was content to let others do his dirty work.

Those guys made the HOF because they were both talented AND willing to work hard.

Current snipers like Sharp, Stamkos, Kessel, and Perry work hard. I don't see those guys floating like Neal.

He's really the only lazy sniper I can think of and it's by choice, not because being a sniper requires you to float.

This is exactly the kind of silliness I keep referring to when people defend this guy.

Fact is that Neal has one of the best shots and releases in the league, unfortunately instead of playing a well rounded game and letting that skill set him apart, he leaned on it and because one dimensional. That's not the same thing laziness.

Being passive and lazy are two completely separate things.

Neal was passive when he took cheap shots so often?

I mean seriously, you just admitted the guy was lazy again and tried to slap another adjective on him to make it sound better.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I always wondered if Neal just didn't like skating. He doesn't really have hockey players legs. They're more bird like. It takes more effort to get them goin' me thinks.

 

[Iffyiffiffer]

2. Most snipers float. Most players are not well rounded. It doesn't make them lazy it makes them flawed.

We've seen him do it, especially before Canada's roster was chosen. He just chooses not to do it. It's one thing if he weren't any good at it, but he is and we've seen it.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Of course it was because he didn't put in the effort. That's the whole point.



Being a sniper doesn't mean you float. Neal chose to float because winning board battles and going to the net required effort. Being a puck hound requires moving your feet and trying. Neal wanted nothing to do with those things and was content to let others do his dirty work.

Those guys made the HOF because they were both talented AND willing to work hard.

Current snipers like Sharp, Stamkos, Kessel, and Perry work hard. I don't see those guys floating like Neal.

He's really the only lazy sniper I can think of and it's by choice, not because being a sniper requires you to float.

This is exactly the kind of silliness I keep referring to when people defend this guy.



Neal was passive when he took cheap shots so often?

I mean seriously, you just admitted the guy was lazy again and tried to slap another adjective on him to make it sound better.

1. He put in plenty of effort when he played, just didn't play the style everyone wanted him too. Its two separate issues. He wansn't the type to go "controller disconnect on the backcheck" for example. To his and the teams detriment, he just wasn't someone to go out of his way to play in the dirty areas. That isn't laziness or lack of effort that's just not playing the best way possible. He would rather find soft spots and wait for opportunities to snipe. Its not because he just didn't feel like putting in effort it was because he wanted to score goals.

2. Im not arguing any of your other points. Im arguing the motivation that led to the floating. Not the floating itself.

3. Taking cheap shots is completely irrelevant to this part of the discussion or general passive or aggressive style. Being an idiot sometimes doesn't make him have an aggressive style of play overall.

Being one dimensional isn't the same as being lazy, its not an effort question its a style of play question. You can give tons of effort and still play passively, Sutter and Scuds are other examples of this. They play more positional that physical but in doing so still give effort. Its just the way they feel they play the game the best.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I always wondered if Neal just didn't like skating. He doesn't really have hockey players legs. They're more bird like. It takes more effort to get them goin' me thinks.

I've wondered if that thing from that episode of that show (details, yo) where they said he had bad hips when they were playing that game had much value and what the effect would be.

 

[wej20]

I always wondered if Neal just didn't like skating. He doesn't really have hockey players legs. They're more bird like. It takes more effort to get them goin' me thinks.

Doesn't he do the Gary Roberts program? I doubt Scary Gary lets him skip leg day.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

We've seen him do it, especially before Canada's roster was chosen. He just chooses not to do it. It's one thing if he weren't any good at it, but he is and we've seen it.

Not doing something your capable of doesn't make you lazy either. And I agree he should have played that style more. I just don't think people understand what lazy is. Just because his effort was misguided doesn't make you lazy.

People just cannot accept that others have a different playing style than they want them to play and resort to nonsense like calling people lazy.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I've wondered if that thing from that episode of that show (details, yo) where they said he had bad hips when they were playing that game had much value and what the effect would be.

Yea, i remember that vaguely. Actually now that i remember it, it was the pre-game soccer ritual and they were following Neal and he and the team said he sucked at it and he blamed his hips.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Doesn't he do the Gary Roberts program? I doubt Scary Gary lets him skip leg day.

He does. I don't think he has problems with muscle, just the way he's built.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1. He put in plenty of effort when he played, just didn't play the style everyone wanted him too. Its two separate issues. He wansn't the type to go "controller disconnect on the backcheck" for example. To his and the teams detriment, he just wasn't someone to go out of his way to play in the dirty areas. That isn't laziness or lack of effort that's just not playing the best way possible. He would rather find soft spots and wait for opportunities to snipe. Its not because he just didn't feel like putting in effort it was because he wanted to score goals.

2. Im not arguing any of your other points. Im arguing the motivation that led to the floating. Not the floating itself.

3. Taking cheap shots is completely irrelevant to this part of the discussion or general passive or aggressive style. Being an idiot sometimes doesn't make him have an aggressive style of play overall.

Being one dimensional isn't the same as being lazy, its not an effort question its a style of play question. You can give tons of effort and still play passively, Sutter and Scuds are other examples of this. They play more positional that physical but in doing so still give effort. Its just the way they feel they play the game the best.

Not playing the best way possible?

I'm not trying to beat you up here, but you just keep finding different ways to call him lazy.... in a nice way.

Sutter and Scuds don't float. There is a huge difference. I never watched those two and thought they needed to move their feet more. Sutter wasn't a great board guy, but he put in the effort. Now he is improving, because he has PUT IN THE EFFORT to improve. He also has no problem going to the net and being a puck hound.

Adams is a crap skater that is more a detriment to the team on the ice, but even he doesn't float. It's a question of effort. None of us will ever accuse Adams of being lazy. He's just old, and slow.

Neal made a conscious choice to float and that's part of the reason he is gone.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Not playing the best way possible?

I'm not trying to beat you up here, but you just keep finding different ways to call him lazy.... in a nice way.

Sutter and Scuds don't float. There is a huge difference. I never watched those two and thought they needed to move their feet more. Sutter wasn't a great board guy, but he put in the effort. Now he is improving, because he has PUT IN THE EFFORT to improve. He also has no problem going to the net and being a puck hound.

Adams is a crap skater that is more a detriment to the team on the ice, but even he doesn't float. It's a question of effort. None of us will ever accuse Adams of being lazy. He's just old, and slow.

Neal made a conscious choice to float and that's part of the reason he is gone.

Not at all, you just do not understand that being lazy and not playing optimally or not playing the hardest style are the same thing. One is a result and one is a possible motivation. Think of it as a ven diagram. One circle is lazy the other is passive. Sometimes the overlap and sometimes the do not.

No Sutter doesn't float but he often passes up opportunities separate a guy from the puck along the boards, instead he peels of and tries to deflect/intercept potential passes. Which is the same concept as floating to the slot just a different situation.

Scuds does the same thing defensively, instead of doing the thing that requires more effort he just stays between his man and the net and tries to break things up with his stick.

Not moving your legs constantly doesn't make you lazy, Neal obviously believes its in his best interest to try and float to soft spot and shoot. IMO (and most peoples I would guess) that is a mistake, I think its what separates him from being good to great. But the motivation isn't because he is scared/averse to putting in effort, he just isn't making the correct choice.