Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[DesertedPenguin]

Dubas signed half the contracts that have us in this miss.

Suddenly he’s going to start making smart moves?

Toronto lost in the playoffs year after year due to their depth and defense.

Shocker.

GMs miss on contracts and trades. Rutherford didn't hit on every single move. His first year, in fact, had Penguins fans screaming for his head.

Most of these players have positive track records, too. Doesn't that give you more ammunition for your "Everything Sullivan Touches Turns To Poo" theory?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

As much as I like the picture you're painting, here. I think it's a bit more urgent than that. You are going to have to make a choice and make it now. Are they still trying for Sid or are they moving on to the next phase? Honestly they've already delayed far too long on this. You just cannot have both. As much as there is a part of me that loves what you want to see above... it also involves the moving out of whatever futures the team has left. Presumably with the same leadership behind the bench which (much as I know you are loathe to hear it) could well just render the same results all over again, anyway.

Just have that discussion with Sid and blow it up. It doesn't mean you intentionally have to suck. Only that there cannot be anymore dishing of futures in an attempt to build something that just isn't there. I wish I could see what you're seeing but the guts of this team are rotten or way past their best-by dates.

I would make those moves I outlined, and outside of winning the Cup or at least making a serious, serious run, I'd fire the entire staff in the offseason.

My first target as head coach would be Marco Sturm. He has a blend of NHL playing experience, NHL coaching experience, and AHL coaching/player development that's perfect for the next phase.

As I noted, all of those guys brought in at the deadline are on expiring contracts. You're keeping your best assets in Yager, Blomqvist, etc. Pickering is a former first round pick, but he really appears to be underwhelming.

There are additional moves you can make in the offseason to recoup assets, too. You can also sign free agents with the possibility of moving them at the deadline if you're out of contention.

It's a fine line to walk, I acknowledge. And you might fail. But I think it's the best way to give the core an outside shot while looking to the future.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I mean to be fair at least some of these signings had all the hallmarks of turning out far better.

Odd that they didn't. Wouldn't you say?

Agreed

Very odd

...... Wonder what the common denominator is....

 

[Gurglesons]

GMs miss on contracts and trades. Rutherford didn't hit on every single move. His first year, in fact, had Penguins fans screaming for his head.

Most of these players have positive track records, too. Doesn't that give you more ammunition for your "Everything Sullivan Touches Turns To Poo" theory?

I don’t have any faith in Dubas turning around this team. He seems to be a yes man based on his gushing about Mike Sullivan.

 

[Come on]

NHL ready like Kris Beech, Ross Lupaschuk and Michal Sivek NHL-ready?

No you're absolutely right. Let's take that 23-32 and 17 year old because the Pens are so great developing their own talent lol. Glad you went out and found the worst examples kudos for the great work!!!

NHL ready

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I don’t have any faith in Dubas turning around this team. He seems to be a yes man based on his gushing about Mike Sullivan.

He's not going to throw Sullivan under the bus. He just won't.

Even when he and Shanahan fired Babcock, after months of Babcock openly questioning the roster, Dubas didn't take the bait.

“I'm disappointed in myself,” Dubas said during a media availability with team president Brendan Shanahan in Arizona on Thursday, ahead of Toronto’s game against the Coyotes.

“Coming into the job [in May 2017] and knowing Mike was the coach, you certainly want everything to work out. Going through last season, going through the off-season, it was always my intention [to make it work]. I tried as best as I could with that and I’m disappointed in myself and only myself that it didn’t work out, that we couldn’t become simpatico on every single topic.”

---
He also said this about Keefe and having different opinions:

“Sheldon and I have had some of the biggest disagreements and arguments I’ve ever had with anybody,” Dubas said. “But in the end we were largely philosophically and in terms of style of play always aligned and on the same page. And we’ve gone through a [mid-season] change like this in Sault Ste. Marie. So that made it a little bit easier.”

Dubas disappointed partnership with Babcock didn’t work out - TSN.ca

Maple Leafs general manager says he ‘couldn't become simpatico on every single topic’ with former head coach, Kristen Shilton writes.

www.tsn.ca

I don't see a GM who will refuse to make changes.

 

[ChaosAgent]

That's all on Rutherford. Zucker was demoted to the 4th line before getting traded to the penguins, and the Leafs were up against the cap before they traded for Kappy. Rutherford didn't need to give up a first round picks for each of those players.

For sure. Just, it's hard to compete when effectively four recent first round draft picks are doing nothing for you.

When did we get value back? The Murray trade? But then we cancelled that out with Granlund.

The team already put its best foot forward in getting a 4th Cup for the core with Kapanen, Zucker and Brassard. Karlsson is the last gasp. It's time to stop throwing good money after bad.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

No you're absolutely right. Let's take that 23-32 and 17 year old because the Pens are so great developing their own talent lol. Glad you went out and found the worst examples kudos for the great work!!!

I was just messin around. But yeah I just don't see the point in a like 9M dollar long term Jake. YMMV

 

[Come on]

I was just messin around. But yeah I just don't see the point in a like 9M dollar long term Jake. YMMV

I can agree with that but, if he is going to do that might as well trade Jarry someone will bite with the state of the goalie situation on many teams. Also you might as well retain on Karlsson and move him to a contender.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I can agree with that but, if he is going to do that might as well trade Jarry someone will bite with the state of the goalie situation on many teams. Also you might as well retain on Karlsson and move him to a contender.

No argument there from me. Send it all down the road as far as I'm concerned. If you refuse to budge on the coach then it's the only move left that makes even a little sense.

 

[Hell Yeah!!!]

No argument there from me. Send it all down the road as far as I'm concerned. If you refuse to budge on the coach then it's the only move left that makes even a little sense.

Unless you're not moving on from the coach because you think he can win lol

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Unless you're not moving on from the coach because you think he can win lol

If that's the case then Mike Sullivan is putting up the best bluff I've ever seen. Considering he's been a loser for years, now.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

But that's ok, because next year it will be different! Next year! Right, Buckos fans?

Chapman is a Bucco. Clearly the missing piece. It seems like only yesterday he defected from Cuba but it was actually 15 years. Doubt he can rifle a ball 106 anymore, though...

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Unfortunately looks like I was correct when I was saying we should not resign Malkin. The guy is my favorite Penguin 2nd only to Mario. But he simply looks cooked. And he refuses to change his style of play to fit the player he is right now and I do not think a coaching change would move the dial on that fact even a fraction. He will go down as absolute Penguins legend, but unfortunately I was right that we should have moved on from him.

 

[Darren McCord]

The Penguins aren't going full firesale while Crosby is still in the NHL.

I think they can keep Jake while reshaping the team, regardless of who is coach.

Between now and the deadline, I'd make the following moves:

1. Acquire Elias Lindholm from Calgary (with 50% retained) for Rickard Rakell, Owen Pickering and the Penguins' 2026 2nd round draft pick. Play Lindholm at center and shift Malkin to the wing. Rakell gives Calgary a top six replacement while Pickering and the pick provide future assets.
2. Acquire Anthony Duclair from San Jose for Pierre Olivier-Joseph
3. Acquire Vegas' 2024 3rd round pick for Reilly Smith (reversing the trade from this summer)
4. Acquire Nick Robertson from Toronto for Valterri Puustinen and Chad Ruhwedel.
5. Acquire Ilya Lyubushkin and Adam Henrique (50% retained) from Anaheim for Ty Smith, Radim Zohorna and 2024 3rd round pick
6. Acquire Nick Robertson from Toronto for Valterri Puustinen, Chad Ruhwedel and 2025 4th round pick.

If you think that's a lot of moves, Dubas made the same number of trades for Toronto last year between February 17, 2023 and March 3, 2023. Those included acquiring Ryan O'Reilly, Jake McCabe, Sam Lafferty, and others.

The end result is a cap compliant roster that looks like the following:
Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Malkin-Lindholm-Duclair
Poulin-Henrique-Robertson
DOC-Eller-Acciari
Carter

Pettersson-Karlsson
Lyubushkin-Letang
Graves-Ludvig
Shea

It also includes no long-term commitments. Lindholm, Duclair, Lyubushkin, and Henrique are all free agents. Robertson is a young RFA. You can explore further moves in the offseason.

Sullivan will turn lindholm into a 3rd line defense center. And bench duclair for harkins.

Nothing they do will matter if he is still here

 

[Malkinstheman]

3 GMs, countless roster rehauls and Sullivan can still do no wrong. Why even reply to the Sullivan fan club? The dude managed to turn a 3 time Norris winner into a headless chicken. I look forward to Joseys schizo reply to this

 

[HandshakeLine]

Im constantly amazed at the number of posters on here who have access to that guy’s most inner thoughts and desires. If you guys are that close to him, why don’t you yourselves try and influence his decisions? Because if i’m reading it right, if you’re close to Sidney Crosby, you basically have direct communication with the players, coaches, management and ownership all in one fell swoop, because Sidney Crosby is all of those things.

Must be exhausting trying to keep up with it all…

I have no insights into Sid's mind, nor will I pretend to, if that's what you're implying. It's just simple observation and pattern recognition. We have played the exact same way on the PP since before time immemorial. Sid gets his line combinations, he gets excited when his friends are signed.

On the other hand, when changes were necessary during the Cup runs, guess who was vocal about them and got behind them instantly?

It's frankly hard not to see it.

 

[canadianguy77]

I have no insights into Sid's mind, nor will I pretend to, if that's what you're implying. It's just simple observation and pattern recognition. We have played the exact same way on the PP since before time immemorial. Sid gets his line combinations, he gets excited when his friends are signed.

On the other hand, when changes were necessary during the Cup runs, guess who was vocal about them and got behind them instantly?

It's frankly hard not to see it.

I see him as more of a low-key guy. I don’t think he interferes in his GM’s or coaches jobs. I do think there are a lot of posters who are ready to throw him under the bus though. I don’t get it…but whatever i guess? The guy is doing everything he can physically do to get this team back into the playoffs. I’m not going to start blaming him for imaginary scenarios made up by a few posters on here.

If the guy is basically the acting coach and GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins, you’d think we’d have read something in print by now from someone, somewhere. (Besides here). He’s had 100’s of teammates and coaches over the years. And by most accounts, Sid is a pretty great guy, but no one in this life gets along with everyone. It would be a pretty big scoop. Makes me think it isn’t true because it would be a huge story. And if reporters had any inkling that he’s running the team behind the scenes, one of them would ask him about it. Maybe not a local reporter…but someone would.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I see him as more of a low-key guy. I don’t think he interferes in his GM’s or coaches jobs. I do think there are a lot of posters who are ready to throw him under the bus though. I don’t get it…but whatever i guess? The guy is doing everything he can physically do to get this team back into the playoffs. I’m not going to start blaming him for imaginary scenarios made up by a few posters on here.

If the guy is basically the acting coach and GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins, you’d think we’d have read something in print by now from someone, somewhere. (Besides here). He’s had 100’s of teammates and coaches over the years. And by most accounts, Sid is a pretty great guy, but no one in this life gets along with everyone. It would be a pretty big scoop. Makes me think it isn’t true because it would be a huge story. And if reporters had any inkling that he’s running the team behind the scenes, one of them would ask him about it. Maybe not a local reporter…but someone would.

Yeah, this is spot on. Look how he played down the run-in with Dubas before Dubas was hired. It wasn't dinner. It wasn't picking his brain. It was Sid being such a workout freak that he was at the facility when Dubas happened to come by.

There have been enough guys who had axes to grind with the Pens that they could have easily taken shots at Sid after leaving. None have.

Plus, if Sid was getting his way at the expense of the team, Malkin would have eventually had enough. Instead, he stayed and is close friends with Sid. Same with Letang.

It's not Sid dictating. It's everyone else deferring to him because they believe he's going to be the best option in a given moment.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I see him as more of a low-key guy. I don’t think he interferes in his GM’s or coaches jobs. I do think there are a lot of posters who are ready to throw him under the bus though. I don’t get it…but whatever i guess? The guy is doing everything he can physically do to get this team back into the playoffs. I’m not going to start blaming him for imaginary scenarios made up by a few posters on here.

If the guy is basically the acting coach and GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins, you’d think we’d have read something in print by now from someone, somewhere. (Besides here). He’s had 100’s of teammates and coaches over the years. And by most accounts, Sid is a pretty great guy, but no one in this life gets along with everyone. It would be a pretty big scoop. Makes me think it isn’t true because it would be a huge story. And if reporters had any inkling that he’s running the team behind the scenes, one of them would ask him about it. Maybe not a local reporter…but someone would.

Nobody least of all me, is saying he's running the team, just that the team caters to him (he's the star! he's the captain) and he sets examples and has a loud voice in things. If Sid wants change, there is change, it's as simple as that. Sid wants GCR? He gets GCR. Sid doesn't want to play with Hornqvist? Guess who's not on L1.

You and DP want to read something into what I'm saying that's not there. I'm simply saying that if Sid didn't have any influence and any effect on how the team is constructed, it would be absolutely insane and goes against all evidence to the fact.

So, again, just for clarity are you telling me that Sid has no say in how the PP is constructed,
(for example) and he's been suffering in silence about it for years?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don't know what Dubas' end game is, does he want to keep taking the blame for this coach and quit or get fired like the other two? Previous GM's have made moves that looked awful because of how Sullivan utilized those players and each time a GM tried to add players that were the types Sullivan liked to use as it's painfully clear blokes way above Dubas has mandated this team be made to Sullivan's design.

So Dubas goes out and gets the reigning Norris winner in Karlsson, adds a lot of 3rd and 4th line depth to maybe even hint at using Carter f***ing less (lol like Sully would) and swaps out some big parts on Defense and adds some solid Goaltending Depth. Then like clockwork, Sullivan makes it all look like shit, again.

Now the walnuts that are the Pens Media are spinning some narrative of "Pens record after 44 games during Cup wins was similar!" - Well, wankbuckets, at this point last year, the Pens had 51pts and were still absolute shit and somehow this year they're worse at 48pts in 44 games.

How the f*** do they keep ignoring this f***ing coach as the problem?

Dubas is now facing having to potentially move Jake Guentzel because of the team being so inconsistent and awful or sign him to some long term deal while this coach is immune to criticism only to waste that cap space on a roster that, lets face it, if they're not firing Sullivan this season or next season, needs to be blown apart because there's nothing to hope for with this core with this coach and losing Guentzel. Guentzel, mind you, likely is looking at this situation with his agent and might want to test the waters and not commit to signing before the TDL. Which I would not fault him for, he's turning 30 this year and has a decent window while still in his prime to win more cups elsewhere or at least be on a team that has a better future than this.

 

[Pens1566]

Jarry just soo good, total bargain signing.

There weren't any better options realistically.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I see him as more of a low-key guy. I don’t think he interferes in his GM’s or coaches jobs. I do think there are a lot of posters who are ready to throw him under the bus though. I don’t get it…but whatever i guess? The guy is doing everything he can physically do to get this team back into the playoffs. I’m not going to start blaming him for imaginary scenarios made up by a few posters on here.

If the guy is basically the acting coach and GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins, you’d think we’d have read something in print by now from someone, somewhere. (Besides here). He’s had 100’s of teammates and coaches over the years. And by most accounts, Sid is a pretty great guy, but no one in this life gets along with everyone. It would be a pretty big scoop. Makes me think it isn’t true because it would be a huge story. And if reporters had any inkling that he’s running the team behind the scenes, one of them would ask him about it. Maybe not a local reporter…but someone would.

This media bends backwards for positive Sidney Crosby news at every turn. He could turn the puck over that leads to a goal for 5 straight games and they will quickly spin the narrative to how Geno did that twice in 5 games and is a problem at this age. Crosby was apparently vocal about wanting a Reaves type on the roster and suddenly, we literally had Reaves on the roster. I think he has more say than anyone wants to admit but less than most of the conspiracy theorists lead on.

Sid has also become quite reliant on Jake Guentzel to create scoring opportunities as he's gotten older and it's gotten harder for him to carry players like he and Geno used to (except in Geno's case, they insist upon him being able to carry his wingers instead of them complimenting his game). I always found it funny that Rossi wrote about how Bylsma lost the Penguins room after losing to the Rangers in the 2nd round after blowing a 3-1 series, which I mean, you really have to laugh at that given that it happened again and instead of firing the coach, they just doubled down on him harder. Even funnier is that MJ's only full season, he loses to the Rangers in 5 in the first round, which was a first round exit for the first time since 2012 (Sullivan has gone on to have multiple first round exits and technically has missed the playoffs twice).

I mean logically speaking if Sullivan is not even remotely near a hot seat for the Pens struggles and you see the trend the Penguins are on and you're Jake Guentzel, soon to be 30 and get to pick your team if you don't sign to win more cups - do you prioritize being on a team just because you have loads of mates on it and a player you admire that you won a cup with already, or do you take that opportunity to get your market value and join a contender for a chance to win another Cup? If Jake leaves, this team is in trouble. I would question Jake's intelligence if he chose to stay, to be honest.


PS - When Sullivan took over as Head Coach, he ran the powerplay, Tocchet was in charge of forwards and pre scouting, Martin was in charge of the Defense and PK. That powerplay finished 17th, the PK 5th, the PP was 10th the year before and PK was still top 5 at 3rd best. Gary Agnew was fired with MJ, while Agnew was absolute ass at running the powerplay on the Blues, he was in charge of the PK and Tocchet was in charge of the powerplay before Sullivan was hired the next season and took over. Agnew just felt like a casualty of MJ for whatever reason, even though he did incredibly well with the PK.

Tocchet had them at #10 in his first year as Assistant Coach, which isn't necessarily great, but also a lot of injuries likely didn't help. The most comical thing is that the Pens were top 5 for like 3 out of 4 seasons with Reirden running the powerplay (before he moved on to the Caps) and Granato was running the PK. Yet the blame still needs to be Reirden. Meanwhile Sullivan came on board, took over powerplay duties and it finishes even lower at 17th. Then in Sullivan's first full season (the 2nd cup), Sullivan gives Tocchet back the powerplay duties in addition to his forwards role and pre scouting role. Pens shoot up fro 17th to 3rd in the PP.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

There weren't any better options realistically.

And Jarry still isn't the issue, he's a microcosm of the problems of this entire system that Sullivan insists isn't a problem. There were times in some of these games where the defense would face Jarry while the other team had scoring opportunities.

The defensive mentally collapses on the first two goals in that last game, lazy defense on Valimaki, dumb play by Letang with Malkin f***ing up a pass. Ned & Jarry have moments where they're so f***ing on it they can win the games from just the insane abilities in net, but then the constant breakdowns in front of them has to wear them down at some points and it has. It's like when you watch Gibson these days in Anaheim, he just looks like he's mentally over it, like why should he go all out behind a team that really doesn't care to be better in front of him?

Ned & Jarry are the only reason this team is #7th for Goals against per game and not near the bottom. Their scoring sucks ass and that's on Sullivan and how he's utilized that forward group into shit. You get a talented winger from within that can create and you throw him on the 3rd line with 8mins a game with grinders that have zero offensive creativity, seems logical. Putting a player like Rust into that role, sure, he's been there before and it's how he started. But when you have talented wingers, you don't f*** them over with 3rd line usage, especially when the 2nd line has struggled because Geno hasn't had a good fit on his line for a while, consistently.

 

[Josey Wales]

3 GMs, countless roster rehauls and Sullivan can still do no wrong. Why even reply to the Sullivan fan club? The dude managed to turn a 3 time Norris winner into a headless chicken. I look forward to Joseys schizo reply to this

I have said repeatedly they can Fire Sullivan Yesterday, Last week, Last season it doesn't f***ing matter to me, But you loons who think that it is all of a sudden going to make the Pens a SC Contender will be crestfallen