Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Trading partners?
- Calgary for Huberdeau / Kadri
- Anaheim
- Seattle
- St Louis

- Left field: Leafs, Vegas, Nashville

Vancouver, maybe.

Malkin and POJ for some bitch grinder this milquetoast low-event buffoon will like and maybe Kuzmenko and a pick or something.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I’m slowly coming around to the realization that Mike Sullivan is going to potentially outlast Sidney Crosby in Pittsburgh.

You're telling me you're not stoked to see him mold the game of the next crop of elite prospects this team's gonna be raking in sooner than later?

 

[Darren McCord]

I’m not sure what Sullivan even needs to do to get fired. He is inevitability.

he wont but he will eventually be promoted to Assistant GM.

 

[molon labe]

I think above all else - I'm sick of the way we build teams and play.

I'd like to see a genuine change come to this team. Yes the 'core' (stupid term) can stay. But outside of Sid/Letang/Geno - enough with the softies, enough with the all-in-transition...it's just not befitting anymore.

-------> Essentially (as I've said for a few years now), I'd like to see a team and coach migrate to the 2010's Kings/Blues or 2023 Vegas style - big defenders and capitalize once or twice a game on chances. This Sullivan style is dead in the water in Pittsburgh and every single Summer/mid season deal seems to keep feeding the dead horse. It ain't working. Stop. No more Rakells. No more Kappanens. No more Smiths and Zahornas and whomever else plays this soft ass tissue paper game that relies on total chance to create a breakaway.

How I might start it? Kadri or Parayko. Find a deal.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

All joking aside, I think even this organization of ostriches with their heads buried in the sand would fire Sullivan if the team missed the playoffs again.

But he got an extension before his current deal was even up following his fourth consecutive 1st round exit so, y'know, nothing this dogshit team does makes sense.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think above all else - I'm sick of the way we build teams and play.

I'd like to see a genuine change come to this team. Yes the 'core' (stupid term) can stay. But outside of Sid/Letang/Geno - enough with the softies, enough with the all-in-transition...it's just not befitting anymore.

-------> Essentially (as I've said for a few years now), I'd like to see a team and coach migrate to the 2010's Kings/Blues or 2023 Vegas style - big defenders and capitalize once or twice a game on chances. This Sullivan style is dead in the water in Pittsburgh and every single Summer/mid season deal seems to keep feeding the dead horse. It ain't working. Stop. No more Rakells. No more Kappanens. No more Smiths and Zahornas and whomever else plays this soft ass tissue paper game that relies on total chance to create a breakaway.

How I might start it? Kadri or Parayko. Find a deal.

Honestly this team just SAYS it plays high-flying, fast and skilled hockey.

In reality it plays low-event, keep-it-on-the-walls, low-to-high OZ plays that rely on tips etc. in front even though there is no traffic and in general sludge-y, lowest-common-denominator hockey that keeps pointing back at it's fancy numbers and saying "see how great we are at all these imaginary goals?!?" In reality those breakaways you reference would end up nothing because this team is filled to the brim with utterly mediocre and overpaid talent. Hell I'd PREFER them to at least try going all out. Maybe people wouldn't be falling asleep in their nachos if they tried.

 

[Gurglesons]

All joking aside, I think even this organization of ostriches with their heads buried in the sand would fire Sullivan if the team missed the playoffs again.

But he got an extension before his current deal was even up following his fourth consecutive 1st round exit so, y'know, nothing this dogshit team does makes sense.

I don’t. Why would they? If they miss this year they are going to be cutting up the roster.

 

[molon labe]

Honestly this team just SAYS it plays high-flying, fast and skilled hockey.

In reality it plays low-event, keep-it-on-the-walls, low-to-high OZ plays that rely on tips etc. in front even though there is no traffic and in general sludge-y, lowest-common-denominator hockey that keeps pointing back at it's fancy numbers and saying "see how great we are at all these imaginary goals?!?" In reality those breakaways you reference would end up nothing because this team is filled to the brim with utterly mediocre and overpaid talent. Hell I'd PREFER them to at least try going all out. Maybe people wouldn't be falling asleep in their nachos if they tried.

Well it goes into the player base and coach as well.

I think Sullivan HAS tried different things this year - just to no consistency and with the wrong player base. But that player base and choice of consistency are HIS fault mostly.

We may play (on some nights) this boring hockey you're talking about (I've seen it) - but we have the most mutilated no-identity roster for it. We have a collection of parts that you get when you're trying to play high chance / danger hockey....yet we have no talent for that or the legs. But they're certainly a HELL of a lot closer to that then bruising heavy-bodied players who scrap for dirty goals or hope their star (Sid) nets a beauty.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well it goes into the player base and coach as well.

I think Sullivan HAS tried different things this year - just to no consistency and with the wrong player base. But that player base and choice of consistency are HIS fault mostly.

We may play (on some nights) this boring hockey you're talking about (I've seen it) - but we have the most mutilated no-identity roster for it. We have a collection of parts that you get when you're trying to play high chance / danger hockey....yet we have no talent for that or the legs. But they're certainly a HELL of a lot closer to that then bruising heavy-bodied players who scrap for dirty goals or hope their star (Sid) nets a beauty.

Oh don't get me wrong... they are pillow soft on top of all that. So like you said... it's a truly useless collection of players when it comes to trying to establish any kind of identity. Like... what IS their identity? I know what they say but f*** that they are just toeing the company line. What is their identity REALLY and how many years has it been "???"

This is what the coach wants. I know lots of fans go through some truly hilarious contortions and mental gymnastics to pretend otherwise but above all else this is Mike Sullivan's roster and has been a while.

 

[SEALBound]

I honestly think Sully might be worse than Bylsma at this point. He literal is bringing nothing to the team and just letting it fall apart. His only answer is guys like Jarkins and White and Shea.

Poulin was on a like a 5 game goal scoring streak in the AHL and they recall freaking White. Jarkins has like 4 points and yet he gets more minutes than Puustinen and so does White. Corey Andonovski is having a better AHL season then White. White sucks.

Also Smith leads WBS in points yet cant get a sniff over nobodies like Shea



thats the most depressing but true thing I have read today.

There always a balance between NHL and AHL time for developing players. Is Poulin better off with top minutes in WBS or bottom 6 minutes in Pittsburgh? Might depend on what we want him to develop into though. We saw Puustinen doing well but then gets put in the bottom 6 and he kinda goes to hell. Is it helping or hurting development? There's case on both sides.

I don't think Poulin in over Harkins or Smith in over Shea/POJ/Rudwedel are the differences between us winning and losing at the moment.

The key here is Dubas shouldn't be claiming Harkins like players to give to Sullivan to begin with.

 

[SEALBound]

I think above all else - I'm sick of the way we build teams and play.

I'd like to see a genuine change come to this team. Yes the 'core' (stupid term) can stay. But outside of Sid/Letang/Geno - enough with the softies, enough with the all-in-transition...it's just not befitting anymore.

-------> Essentially (as I've said for a few years now), I'd like to see a team and coach migrate to the 2010's Kings/Blues or 2023 Vegas style - big defenders and capitalize once or twice a game on chances. This Sullivan style is dead in the water in Pittsburgh and every single Summer/mid season deal seems to keep feeding the dead horse. It ain't working. Stop. No more Rakells. No more Kappanens. No more Smiths and Zahornas and whomever else plays this soft ass tissue paper game that relies on total chance to create a breakaway.

How I might start it? Kadri or Parayko. Find a deal.

I agree, I hate the way we've built the team. Sullivan insists on the:

Scoring Line 1
Scoring Line 2
Defensive Line
Checking Line

model which hasn't been successful in today's NHL in quite some time. They need to go back to the 2016 model of:

Scoring Line 1
Scoring Line 2
Scoring Line-lite 3
Defensive Line

Looking at who was available in free agency, they could have built a team like that. We still could:

Jake-Sid-Rust
DOC-Malkin-Puustinen
Smith-Eller-Rakell
Nieto-Acciari-Carter

But...we refuse.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Along with power play issues and the recurring mental lapses, the overall play style would be a primary reason to change coaches. It would require significant personnel changes, too. If you wanted to mimic Vegas or the early 2010 Cup teams, you'd need to get bigger in multiple areas.

I think Tampa is still the best way for the Pens to structure their team - it rewards high skill, which the organization has always preferred, and maintains a speed element. But there is a grittiness and physicality to Tampa's game in its prime that rewarded players who relentlessly pursued the puck. You have players big enough and strong enough to win board battles, win battles around the net.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don’t. Why would they? If they miss this year they are going to be cutting up the roster.

Good. They can start with Jake at the TDL, and once the fire sale begins, maybe Sullivan walks away because he doesn't want to coach a tear down/rebuild.

 

[Darren McCord]

There always a balance between NHL and AHL time for developing players. Is Poulin better off with top minutes in WBS or bottom 6 minutes in Pittsburgh? Might depend on what we want him to develop into though. We saw Puustinen doing well but then gets put in the bottom 6 and he kinda goes to hell. Is it helping or hurting development? There's case on both sides.

I don't think Poulin in over Harkins or Smith in over Shea/POJ/Rudwedel are the differences between us winning and losing at the moment.

The key here is Dubas shouldn't be claiming Harkins like players to give to Sullivan to begin with.

But thats the thing they don't have to be in the bottom 6.

Jake - Sid - Puustinen
Poulin - Geno - Rust
DOC - Eller - Rakell

Youth on each line but with Sully you cant have guys under 30 in the top six.

Also this whole cant have players in the bottom 6 is garbage. That is because of sullivan and only him. That is not a league thing. So many other teams start young guys in the bottom 6 but this team forces its bottom 6 into defense onlys.

Sullivan's greatest effect has been altering the way the message board views the bottom 6.

Good. They can start with Jake at the TDL, and once the fire sale begins, maybe Sullivan walks away because he doesn't want to coach a tear down/rebuild.

Doubt it. Sully would never had the job security elsewhere he has with the pens.

 

[SEALBound]

But thats the thing they don't have to be in the bottom 6.

Jake - Sid - Puustinen
Poulin - Geno - Rust
DOC - Eller - Rakell

Youth on each line but with Sully you cant have guys under 30 in the top six.

Also this whole cant have players in the bottom 6 is garbage. That is because of sullivan and only him. That is not a league thing. So many other teams start young guys in the bottom 6 but this team forces its bottom 6 into defense onlys.

Sullivan's greatest effect has been altering the way the message board views the bottom 6.

I don't disagree. I'm just suggesting that I see it both ways.

This part is on Dubas. It's his decisions to have Harkins and White in the NHL and Poulin in the AHL.

As I said in previous posts, if I'm Dubas and the decision is made to trade Jake, I go nearly scorched earth and try to send out Smith, Nieto, Acciari, and Neds as well. I think sending Nieto and Acciari out, while seemingly insignificant, opens up roster spots that allow us to get extended looks at people without worrying about cap space as much.

 

[Darren McCord]

This part is on Dubas. It's his decisions to have Harkins and White in the NHL and Poulin in the AHL.

I honestly do not agree. Yes it should be his call but I think he defers to Sullivan right now. Sullivan effectively runs this team. Dubas needs to take charge but has not

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I honestly do not agree. Yes it should be his call but I think he defers to Sullivan right now. Sullivan effectively runs this team. Dubas needs to take charge but has not

I have a hard time deciding one way or the other. It's hard for people to imagine a coach having so much sway but I dunno if it's out of the realm of possibility considering well... *gestures widely*

Either way Kyle looks like kind of a sniveling little toady right the moment. Or at least moreso every day he just kinda sits around and shrugs. The word was that dude basically had complete autonomy. Sorta doubting that's the case, now.

 

[Andy99]

Honestly this team just SAYS it plays high-flying, fast and skilled hockey.

In reality it plays low-event, keep-it-on-the-walls, low-to-high OZ plays that rely on tips etc. in front even though there is no traffic and in general sludge-y, lowest-common-denominator hockey that keeps pointing back at it's fancy numbers and saying "see how great we are at all these imaginary goals?!?" In reality those breakaways you reference would end up nothing because this team is filled to the brim with utterly mediocre and overpaid talent. Hell I'd PREFER them to at least try going all out. Maybe people wouldn't be falling asleep in their nachos if they tried.

The lack of finishing we’ve had for the last couple years is due to this in large part and it’s how Sullivan wants them to score goals lol

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Dubas does have complete autonomy imo. He wouldn't have taken the job if he wasn't given full control. Problem is, he's on the same page as Sullivan and like most of the hockey world, thinks Sullivan's a great coach.

If push came to shove, Dubas would fire Sullivan and FSG would allow it. Push won't come to shove though.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Anyone still enamored with Bryan "Ultimate Penguin" Rust or Ricky "5 Goals But Little Things" Rakell?

 

[SEALBound]

I honestly do not agree. Yes it should be his call but I think he defers to Sullivan right now. Sullivan effectively runs this team. Dubas needs to take charge but has not

It's a touchy subject and a slippery slope. You need a good relationship between the GM and HC, and they both need to be on the same page. Otherwise, you get the Sullivan and Hextall relationship and get guys like Granlund. Or even with JR - Reaves, and Sullivan sticks him on the 4th line for 5min a game.

Dubas controls the roster but Sullivan controls the lineup. The better solution is to fire Sullivan.

Anyone still enamored with Bryan "Ultimate Penguin" Rust or Ricky "5 Goals But Little Things" Rakell?

Rust has been invisible since coming back from injury.

I have not minded Rakell. He's not playing bad and generally helps the line he is on. I'm not as down on him as others.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I wouldn't be down on a hypothetical 3ish million dollar Rakell.

I'm less enthused by a 5M dollar one.

Kinda the problem in general with a lot of guys on the team. Not horrible or anything but usually about 2-3M too expensive and playing above their ability level or at least being relied upon too much beyond their ability level.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Honestly this team just SAYS it plays high-flying, fast and skilled hockey.

In reality it plays low-event, keep-it-on-the-walls, low-to-high OZ plays that rely on tips etc. in front even though there is no traffic and in general sludge-y, lowest-common-denominator hockey that keeps pointing back at it's fancy numbers and saying "see how great we are at all these imaginary goals?!?" In reality those breakaways you reference would end up nothing because this team is filled to the brim with utterly mediocre and overpaid talent. Hell I'd PREFER them to at least try going all out. Maybe people wouldn't be falling asleep in their nachos if they tried.

This is exactly my beef with them, to the point where I genuinely question if Sullivan defenders and team boosters and I are watching the same games. I just don’t see it. We’re playing Spaling hockey.

 

[Andy99]

Anyone still enamored with Bryan "Ultimate Penguin" Rust or Ricky "5 Goals But Little Things" Rakell?

Anyone happy this season with anything other than Sid, Ned, Jake, Petts (except last 2 games) and maybe Letang (depending on expectations for him) has not been watching the games lol

 

[HandshakeLine]

I feel catering to Sid has contributed greatly to the mess we’re in so I’m not as enthused about him as others.