Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[pensfan71]

https://x.com/TheFourthPeriod/status/1762619280518992294?s=20

 

[pistolpete11]

At this point I'd rather another team be doing the drafting and parts of developing instead of the Penguins.

I get your point, but they've traded away so many of their picks it's hard to make a determination on how good/bad they really have been, they have found a few diamonds even when not picking in the top 5 (Letang, Guentzel, Rust), and it's a completely different front office.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't get the Hoglander stuff . Seems like another small only semi-skilled winger.

I don't want Hoglander because he's more of what we already have.

Why are the Pens the only team that insists that you need to be in the 5'10-6'1 range? Adding a bit of size isn't against the CBA.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Picks are great but this place wanted to give away the 14th overall/Yager for literally anybody six months ago, so I don't really get why the emphasis is on the 1st rounder (likely 20+) instead of the already drafted prospect(s) in any Jake deal.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I get your point, but they've traded away so many of their picks it's hard to make a determination on how good/bad they really have been, they have found a few diamonds even when not picking in the top 5 (Letang, Guentzel, Rust), and it's a completely different front office.

I take your point but this team hasn't developed a regular NHLer since like Dom Simon and he kinda sucks. The lack of picks plays into that but the days of Rust/Jake/etc. are long ago, now.

Of course you can't develop much if it never plays. So there's that.

 

[Freeptop]

Maybe but I would argue that to a 28yo who has a wife and a couple kids who are starting school or are established at a school or are playing in a very preferred town (say close to family), there would be more important things that a NTC would give them over money. It could be the cherry on top. Like Rakell - "Hey, $5mil for 5yrs." "Hmmmm...I dunno." "Okay, $5x5 and an NTC." "Okay".

Not that the negotiation couldn't go "$6mil!" "Hmmm, how about $5mil and a NTC?" "Deal".

If I wasn't a business owner and was working for the man again, if the difference was "agreeable salary + 20% and they can send me throughout the lower-48 to an office" vs "salary, 20% less, and a promise that I can maybe choose my next location"...then, I'm probably taking the 20%. I don't know what a average person makes but say you're an engineer at 28 making $100,000. $100,000 vs $120,000...I'm taking the $120k.

Funny enough, I'm a software engineer, and when I was 29, I made the choice to take a 20% pay cut in order to move across the country.
Granted, I basically made that back by virtue of Pittsburgh having a much lower cost of living than Silicon Valley, but still, the fact that you chose that exact analogy in response to me is something I can't help but find amusing

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't want Hoglander because he's more of what we already have.

Why are the Pens the only team that insists that you need to be in the 5'10-6'1 range? Adding a bit of size isn't against the CBA.

How many players on the Penguins have 17 goals this year?

Funny enough, I'm a software engineer, and when I was 29, I made the choice to take a 20% pay cut in order to move across the country.
Granted, I basically made that back by virtue of Pittsburgh having a much lower cost of living than Silicon Valley, but still, the fact that you chose that exact analogy in response to me is something I can't help but find amusing

Hilariously, I'm going to be making this same decision to move back to Pittsburgh from Seattle at either age 29 or 30 too

 

[DesertedPenguin]

https://x.com/TheFourthPeriod/status/1762619280518992294?s=20

This means nothing and it's how you know Pagnotta is full of it.

Scouts are at games all the time. What matters is when an AGM or GM shows up, and they have been known to just buy tickets to avoid being spotted.

 

[Ulf5]

How many players on the Penguins have 17 goals this year?



Hilariously, I'm going to be making this same decision to move back to Pittsburgh from Seattle at either age 29 or 30 too

Besides, we can have a line of
Hoglander- Phillips- Puustinen.

 

[pistolpete11]

Picks are great but this place wanted to give away the 14th overall/Yager for literally anybody six months ago, so I don't really get why the emphasis is on the 1st rounder (likely 20+) instead of the already drafted prospect(s) in any Jake deal.

I mean, we've been revisiting the Zucker and Kapanan trades for 5 years and realizing giving up 1sts for mediocre middle 6 wingers probably wasn't the best idea.

But when discussing Hoglander vs. a 1st, we should now go after the 'prospect' even though we're staring down a rebuild? OK.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean to be clear I'm not making a case for Hoglander, here.

Again... other than the fact that his name is Hoglander. That's pretty awesome.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean, we've been revisiting the Zucker and Kapanan trades for 5 years and realizing giving up 1sts for mediocre middle 6 wingers probably wasn't the best idea.

But when discussing Hoglander vs. a 1st, we should now go after the 'prospect' even though we're staring down a rebuild? OK.

This thought would be more valid if the Penguins didn't suck at drafting with their 1st rounders, though.

Coincidentally, neither of the 1sts the Penguins gave up in those deals turned into any NHLer. Filip Johansson was the 1st from the Zucker trade, he wasn't even signed by the Wild. Amirov sadly passed away before he could make it.

 

[pistolpete11]

This thought would be more valid if the Penguins didn't suck at drafting with their 1st rounders, though.

Coincidentally, neither of the 1sts the Penguins gave up in those deals turned into any NHLer. Filip Johansson was the 1st from the Zucker trade, he wasn't even signed by the Wild. Amirov sadly passed away before he could make it.

What 1st rounders?

 

[Empoleon8771]

What 1st rounders?

Poulin ended up pretty clearly a dud, did he not?

The best they've gotten with their 1st rounders dating back to Staal are Kapanen and Maatta. Not exactly an inspiring group.

 

[OnMyOwn]

Hoglander just turned 23 a couple months ago and will finish with 20+ goals this year. He also only makes like 1 mil for another year.

I absolutely take that over a random late first rounder. In a perfect world it’s “in addition to” a first.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You definitely lean heavy on your first round picks. But they aren't the only picks you get. And this team has barely (and I think I'm being kind, here) managed to develop even depth players with the entirety of their drafts.

Lack of first rounders is a valid excuse for not developing high-ish end players. I don't find it an excuse for developing zero players.

 

[pistolpete11]

Poulin ended up pretty clearly a dud, did he not?

The best they've gotten with their 1st rounders dating back to Staal are Kapanen and Maatta. Not exactly an inspiring group.

Poulin had some extenuating circumstances.

As did Maatta and he still ended up a top 4 defenseman on 2 Stanley Cup teams and is still an NHL regular today.

Hoglander seems like another Kapanen to me

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You're not gonna get a franchise building block back in a Jake trade. A couple Yager-tier or better prospects and a 1st or 2nd would be the best possible outcome imo. If they end up with a young roster player with solid upside like Hoglander, a prospect like Lekkerimaki, and a 1st rounder--I'm elated. That's best case scenario by miles.

People are gonna piss and moan regardless of what Dubas gets for Jake, so I'm just hoping the GM and his scouts get lucky and end up with a few good pieces to the puzzle long term. Not confident though. Even so, Jake has to be dealt regardless of what direction this team's gonna take; gear up for the rebuild, try and get assets to flip for a genuine Jake replacement for one last run, etc. Dude cannot be on this team post TDL, as letting him walk or re-signing him are asinine outcomes.

 

[Trade]

Höglander was heavily compared to Marchand in his draft year.

Having not watched any of his games, that tidbit of info was enough to sell me on him hard. I wanted him at 21.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Poulin had some extenuating circumstances.

As did Maatta and he still ended up a top 4 defenseman on 2 Stanley Cup teams and is still an NHL regular today.

Hoglander seems like another Kapanen to me

Yeah, I think this is valid. I just think "another Kapanen" is pretty much the realistic upside you'll be at with a late 1st. The most realistic outcome is that you get even less than that.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

When it comes to collecting picks the Penguins are squarely in "Brooks Orpik/Colby Armstrong" territory right now. This is why the idea of hoarding these bottom third first rounders doesn't excite me much. Especially with coach "30 is the new 20" at the helm.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Also, fire the coaching staff and continue replacing this team's pro and amateur scouting depts. It cannot be overstated how badly both of those things need to happen.

It's unreal how bad this team has been at drafting since they bass ackwards fell into Jake and Rust as 3rd rounders, and how bad they've been at zeroing in on NHL guys to trade for like Zucker, Kapanen, Brassard, Petry, Granlund, etc.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Also lol the main boards are funny, Canucks fans are on some weird stuff there. Apparently Reilly Smith wouldn't be a 2nd line player on any contender, despite the fact that he was a 2nd line player on the team that literally won the Stanley Cup last year.

Not talking hockey on here for like 3 months made me forget how crap the main boards are.

 

[Ulf5]

The Canucks are still in on Guentzel apparently.



Hoping they can get Hoglander and Lekkerimaki for him if they go that route. Even as someone who wants to keep Guentzel if possible, I'd be over the moon happy if you can get those two.

Please Jimmy for the love of God, don't abandon your gunslinger mentality now. Come and get your man.
I wouldn't mind Hoglander as long as he's like the 3rd piece in a deal. Reading Canucks forums, he has a motor that doesn't quit. But the return would have to include a near, guaranteed sure thing. Someone like a Lekkerimaki and a first too.
While a lower end first it could be added to ours to move up.

 

[pistolpete11]

You definitely lean heavy on your first round picks. But they aren't the only picks you get. And this team has barely (and I think I'm being kind, here) managed to develop even depth players with the entirety of their drafts.

Lack of first rounders is a valid excuse for not developing high-ish end players. I don't find it an excuse for developing zero players.

They haven't had very many even 2nd or 3rd that they kept. Ignoring the last few drafts since it's too early to say.

2020
2nd Blomqvist - is nearing NHL ready, seems promising
3rd Clang - traded him away, but last I heard he was still promising

2019
1st Poulin - so far a bust but was had some health issues
3rd Legare - bust
7th - Puusy - I don't think he's a long term 2LW, but I think and NHL player is possible

2018
2nd - Addisson - traded away, I think he kinda sucks, but he's playing in the NHL
Hallander - bust

2017
2nd Lauzon - bust
3rd Phillips.- bust

2016
2nd Gus - starting NHL goalie
2nd Bjorkqvist - bust
3rd Hall - bust

2015
2nd Sprong - current NHLer with a chance to pot 20goals in back-to-back years
5th Simon - Was a depth piece for a while

2014
1st Kapanen - whatever you feel about him
4th Lafferty - traded, has been a decent depth piece since getting un-Sullied

2013
2nd Jarry
3rd Guentzel

2012
1st Pouliot - bust, but I did see he's on a NHL roster somewhere
1st Matta - Has been an NHL since they drafted him
2nd Blueger - good depth piece except for getting Sullied last year
3rd Sundqvist - traded, decent depth piece
3rd Murray - say what you will about what happened after, but 2x Cup starting goalie



Everything else was a 4-7th. I'm not trying to say it's been great, but I was expecting this to be a lot worse TBH. The issue in my eyes is lack of picks more than bad picks.