Penguins Win Lottery!

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Spacemania

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Alright, well I suppose it was meant to be. They got the top pick. Not that I'm crying over it, I'm personally glad the Sharks didn't get em, I think he's got way too much pressure on him to revive the NHL, and although he'll have a great season, were all going to think in the end that he didn't meet expectations, as all I hear is "the next Gretzky" or the such.

However, my point is, that if the team doesn't make the playoffs this year, they might as well pack up, move out, and sell the franchise.
 

Ric Flair

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DanielBriere48 said:
Another point.The Pens have not tried at all to be better.

I know, they are so horrible for the game, all they want to do is lose. Now that they can draft Crosby they will probably just trade him for some mediocre prospects. They'll prolly trade Malkin and Fleury for a few 4th rounders as well. Simply disgusting. It's almost as bad as when they'd put together lines with guys like Lemieux, Jagr, Kovalev, Nedved, Recchi, Tocchet, Francis, etc. Damn penguins, never trying to win.
 

discostu

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This is an interesting arguement, as the truth falls in between the two sides.

I don't think "tanking" is best adjective to describe Pittsburgh's performance. Certainly, I never felt that the team on the ice was trying to win. I think the coaching staff did their best to win games. I think ownership decided that if they were going to lose, they were going to do it as cheaply as possible.

I also agree with Vlad, that this isn't a good thing. In an ideal world, every team should be trying to be as competitive as they can, and if a team does happen to suck, it shouldn't be from a pre-determined decision that it's okay to lose, and if they do come in last, then hey, at least there is a hot prospect in it for them. I actually think the salary floor is one way to ensure that teams will not field such a poor team as Pittsburgh has this last few years.

The other thing is, I don't think tanking is as lucrative as you make it sound. True, a couple of high profile prospects are great building blocks for your team, but, it's not enough to guarantee sucess, or at least enough of it to warrant the damage you'll do to your fan-base in those lean years. To succeed, you need to have strong player development, and a success in drafting players beyond the top 10. Ottawa's a great example. Many people point to our crappy years of high draft picks as the source of our success, but really, it's the drafting of players like Alfredsson, Hossa, Havlat, Fisher, Arvedson, Salo, Dackell, Rachunek, etc. that we built are roster around, all of which were drafted outside of the top 10. Plus, there's enough prospects busts, that "tanking" is quite a risky proposition.

One thing I do agree with you on Vlad, is that it should have been an equal weighted lottery, but I'm not sure if we have the same reasons. In my opinion, in regular years, the fans of a poor performing teams get rewarded with high draft picks, and high profile prospects. It helps alleviate the pain of watching a bad team for a whole year. This past year, the season was gone. Every team's fans had to give up a year of watching their team. The difference was, that Pittsburgh's fan missed a year watching young, unseasoned players would struggle against stronger teams, and, as an Ottawa fan, I missed an opportunity where my team would be a strong contender for the cup. Hardly an equal sacrifice, IMHO. When the dust settled for the draft, teams like Pittsburgh got an increased chance at the top pick, while teams like Ottawa and Tampa, which gave up a year of prime contendership, had a significantly lessened chance at the top prize.

But, honestly, it wasn't that big a deal to me. The other purpose of a draft is a method for weaker teams to become stronger, and the weighted system did allow that. The question comes down to "need" versus "earned", and everyone is going to have different opinions on how those two issues should factor into the process. The one thing that we can take solice in is that it still came down to random chance, and quite honestly, there were worse teams that could have gotten the pick.
 

Unholy Diver

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let me try to explain things in lay terms for you people that can not seem to understand the penguins situation


if you are making 9.50$ an hour you do not go out and buy a $750,000 home but you find an apartment that you can afford maybe for 400$ a month

so are people in the small apartments "tanking"? no they are living within their means

you can not spend money that you do not have

and as for the Pens being "so bad" as Dan Briere says, well the Sabres have made it out of the 1st round of the playoffs just as many times as the Pens have so are the Sabres "all time cellar dwellers"? did the Sabres "tank" when the blew game 7 in the cup finals a few years back?

you people have no idea what the Pens situation is or was and your hatred for the team will keep it that way
 

The Dopefish

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I was watching the entire lottery unfold on NESN (obviously slanted for the local Bruins but they dissed the Habs more than the Pens :)) and was crossing my fingers and such. Then they got called and I was ecstatic.

I wore my Lemieux jersey to and from work (80+F outside, I didn't care). Obviously it turned out to do more with about hockey then I was feeling. :D
 

bit82

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this was my favorite sports day in the past couple of years. this topps the steelers/pats playoff game from this years playoffs. i was so happy when i heard bettman say that the Penguins have the #1 pick.
 

pensrule

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Sad day for the NHL. Most ****** franchise gets rewarded for their disgraceful tanking AGAIN :shakehead

I'm hoping a lot of teams in the Pens division will tank over the years and give crappy performances in Pittsburgh. That's what this organization deserves.

Next time there is heated talks and a CBA negociation is looming, you can damn well expect even more teams to tank than what we saw the last two NHL seasons.

Really should have been one ball per team :(

*******! :madfire: The Pens are a great franchise. Not there fault there's no money in there ****** arena right now, should change in the near future.

As far as tanking, that's ******** too. They were one of the hottest teams down the stretch in the last season.

They would have made the playoffs without Crosby this year! :yo:
 

pensrule

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Yeah, I'm going to back this up with the same kind of facts you used to call my position pathetic.

None whatsoever.

When you want to argue about why you disagree with my position, you are free to do so intelligently. Since this isn't your style and you have never done that, I doubt it's gonna happen now.


All games are televised.
 

Zoo

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King Fish said:
As a Flyers fan I am very excited in the possibility of a a good rivalry again. Carter, Richads, and Crosby will be fun to watch!

Not to forget Malkin... and us this makes for a big rivalry yes.

Whitney vs Pitkanen

Malone vs Umberger

Crosby vs Carter

Malkin vs Richards

Fleury vs Niittymaki

Orpik vs Gagne
 

amon

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Lol i want crosby in montreal :cry:

But in every lottery you have a winner and congratulation to the pens its a great news for the nhl . The two best player of their generation playing in the same team ouch . Its a good news we have the 5 th pick maybe a guy like kopitar should be great . I dont understant the people that *****ing on the system and etc . Its a lottery everybody is frustrated to not have crosby but we have winner and loser . I am anxious about the next season to see crosby nail ovechkin . I just dont like ovechkin he loves him too much . he dont have a thing that big athlete like lemieux , gretzky , lafleur, forsberg have and its call modesty . Good season to pens , to canadiens and for everybody . Lets see if the ny ranger will do the same stupid mistake that in the last decade :dunno:And forget about crosby in mtl . Mario lemieux said the same thing when he was draft and he stay in pittsburg and fell in love with the team so ..... lets wait for esposito or kessel maybe :bow:
 

Fists of Fuhry

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Congrats To You Pens Fans

Honestly, I've been drinking since the lottery results and I don't feel an ounce better about it... :cry: but as an Oiler fan, I guess my congratulations goes out to the Pen fans out there because you guys have had to endure the same pains as Oiler fans have over the last few years - star player after star player leaving because of money. Now that karma has set things right in steeltown, I can only hope that Oiler fans are next in line for an early Christmas... Please God let us sign Forsberg, Zubov, and Khabibulin... its only the right thing to do :pout:
 

octopi

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Evilo said:
:shakehead
So trying to break even is tanking?

Not only that, but there odds of winning with three balls were a mere 6.25%.

2 balls= 4.17%, One ball=2.08%

If they did tank, it certainly didn't give them overwhelming odds of winning the lottery.
 

No Quarter*

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Hey Vlad, I don't have a problem with you nor am I trying to start one, but all of your posts on this thread are some of the biggest whiney ass, sour grapes posts I've seen on HFboards since I've joined well over 3 years ago.
I mean some of the remarks you made don't make one iota of sense and are probably brought on by pure bitterness.
I read and reply on alot of your stuff on the lounge and your alot better and more valued poster than you make yourself out to be on this thread.
Just chill the hell out and offer congratulations cause that's what 99% of us on the Pens board would do if your home team won it.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Skipped through the last few pages so sorry if anything similar was posted yet.

- Vlad, consider this possibility, at least. The Penguins were a winning team to a point through the 00-01 season. During this time they sold a good bit of tickets and fielded a respectable payroll as well.

The next season, they took a total nosedive and have remained in the NHL cellar since then.

People may say they tanked and did nothing to keep that team together, but I question this idea. That team had tons of holes on it and was totally owned by the Devils in the ECFs that year. It ran mostly on the offense all year, but before Mario returned from retirement, they were around or below .500 if I remember correctly and not headed for the playoffs.

Mario's return definitely helped out the team a lot, and getting Hedberg who got very hot at the end of the season and in the playoffs pushed a team to the ECF.

But if they kept the key components to that team together, I really question if they compete at the same level or even make the playoffs the next year. The defense was horrid, the goaltending proved not to be so set, and they did sign most of the key offensive players with the money they saved from moving Jagr. I don't think he was a possibility for the team to resign at what he wanted and got, and furthermore I think that the Penguins kept him for too long hoping to win another Cup, thus limiting their options when it came to moving him and really hurting his trade value. They had to accept cash and mediocre prospects, but contrary to what seems to be popular belief, they signed Straka, Kovalev, and Lang after that season.

So we have almost the same team minus Jagr for the next season. Mario and Straka both get hurt, and the team struggles a whole lot. The defense is revealed as a huge weakness and there is no longer a really good offense to compensate so much.

They are now left with a team I think they thought had a shot to contend, and had some options. They have the CBA stuff starting to peak up on the horizon, and maybe it crosses Craig Patrick's mind that that might be the best time to start over.

The team was sort of falling apart and we were kind of running out of options. We could try to sign these top offensive players for longer, but they weren't working now and the attendance (aka, the revenue for the team mostly) was going down because the team wasn't as good.

So now what to do? Well, I guess move some players for what you can get. A bad situation and tough luck injury really killed Lang's trade value. Kovalev was traded for pretty much nothing - there is not much that can legitimize that trade. I contend that we got fair value for Straka and Hedberg.

Another option would have been bringing in some defensive help and maybe another offensive player and kept the guys we had. But that would have likely totaled a fairly large amount, and maybe we couldn't afford that or better yet, don't want to try to risk it and 'afford' it.

I don't think it was a planned tanking. I think it was a little bit of mismanagement with assets and some bad situations that led the team to being torn apart. I also contend that the team that was taken apart really wasn't that good and needed a decent bit of money pumped into it to be better. Could not doing that be seen as purposeful? Yes, and it was a purposeful decision. But I think considering the circumstances, it has proven to be a wise decision. Other teams had similar but also different situations. The Pens in my opinion were sitting in a position where they didn't have as good of a team as they thought they did, and either had to commit money that they didn't have in improving it, or pretty much scrap it and start over.

This has gotten way off topic, so I apologize to the mods if they are thinking of closing this. Vlad, I'd love to hear some responses to this, and feel free to take it to PM if you want. I know we can discuss this civilly. I don't have the time for a huge debate over this, and I've said before that I'm more than content leaving the past in the past, but I want to hear your thoughts here.
 

flyercide

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I am happy for Lemieux.. he deserved to be rewarded. I wasn't actually hoping for him to go to Pit but glad he did. Also I almost died.. when I saw Anaheim at the end.. each team I would have liked to see Sid go to kept getting knocked off & than there was Anaheim. Argh that would have been worst case scenario for me... would have hated him out west playing for Anaheim. They had Selanne & Kariya & did squat...
 

Evilo

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Well that's the problem, isn't it? What are you going to do if more teams play it "smart" and go that way?

Imagine if, say, 14 teams decide they have a chance at the cup and 16 decide to float around and aim for the basement.

Can't you see this is EXACTLY the problem I am talking about? Would you look forward to playing 16 divisional games against two teams that are tanking in your division, and half the league in shamble acting in a completely unethical manner?

You're supposed to give your all to win.

I can't believe you're actually arguing with me, to tell me teams tanking is a GOOD THING. It's not for hockey fans under any circumstances. From a management point of view, it MAY work, but for the league it's devastating. How can you not see that after what you just told me?

No. You seem to put on the same page what Washington did and what Pittsburgh did.
Under the new CBA, few teams will be in such trouble as Pittsburgh or Calgary. At least I hope so.
But teams with plenty of money that will choose to tank will be few and far between.
The reason it happenned in Pittsburgh was because the owner didn't want to lose money.
The reason it happenned in Washington was tanking.

Blame Washington and the Rangers all you want, but don't put the Pens in the tanking department. They weren't.

You choose to igrnore the fact that trading superstars for prospects, money or simply crap was the only thing that enabled Pittsburgh to break even.
If they had traded Kovalev for a package of players, they would have been in the red.
And CP did try to trade Jagr for Kovalchuk straight up. It didn't work, and few teams wanted to put Jagr's salary on their hands because of the new CBA.
You completely forget the facts many teams' behaviour was guided by the new CBA. Some would not take heavy salaries (every time CP tried to trade one of his stars, few teams were interested), and some would give everything to get rid of the big salaries (Pittsburgh).
Without the CBA, Pittsburgh would have had teams interested in Jagr or Kovalev. And their dumping trades (which would have not happenned anyway) would have resulted in better offers.

I think this lucky number yesterday made up for the years of frustration a great hockey mind like CP had to endure.
He's a competitive guy, and seeing the players he either drafted (Jagr) or traded for peanuts (Kovalev), or even took off waivers (Straka, Lang) develop into stars and eventually leave for close to nothing was heartbreaking.
But he didn't have the choice if he wanted to break even.
If I remember right, Calgary (one of the examples you gave) turned some benefit after two rounds of playoffs, right?
Well Pittsburgh couldn't afford the major risk of losing money.
 

me2

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The Pengs tanking or not tanking did not get them Crosby. They could have finished 5th last or 8th last or 12th last every year and still had no better or worse shot at Crosby than tanking about finish last or 2nd last (providing they don't win the 1st overall pick).

The Pengs just got lucky, and good for them.
 

Wisent

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Well that's the problem, isn't it? What are you going to do if more teams play it "smart" and go that way?

Imagine if, say, 14 teams decide they have a chance at the cup and 16 decide to float around and aim for the basement.

Can't you see this is EXACTLY the problem I am talking about? Would you look forward to playing 16 divisional games against two teams that are tanking in your division, and half the league in shamble acting in a completely unethical manner?

You're supposed to give your all to win.

I can't believe you're actually arguing with me, to tell me teams tanking is a GOOD THING. It's not for hockey fans under any circumstances. From a management point of view, it MAY work, but for the league it's devastating. How can you not see that after what you just told me?

I haven't seen that many games of the Pens the last season, but what speaks against this tanking theory is that they actually won at an impressive streak at the end of the last season. They didn't know how the draft lottery would be conducted so that they were actually diminishing their chances of getting the first. In addition I was under the impression that Pittsburgh had to trade their quality players because they couldn't afford them anymore. If other teams know that they not gonna give them very much anyway. Just my impression.
 

turnbuckle*

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What a surprise. A huge day for the Pittsburgh franchise (congratulations), and what should have been a classy thread offering congratulations gets hijacked by Vlad and his own personal agenda. We have unfortunately heard this unfounded whining about Pittsburgh on many occasions in the past, give it a rest. Your constant need for attention has once again been realized - are you happy now? I ws actually enjoying reading this thread and some of the classy comments being offered by the losers until you decided it had to be about you for about the zillionth time around here. Maturity can be a long drawn out process sometimes, particularly in your case. Good look in acquiring some.
 

Evilo

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Vlad has every right to think the Pens tanked.
He simply doesn't understand the Pens' financial situation in details, and there's nothing wrong with that.
The thing is simple : when you don't want to lose money, and you barely break even with money trades, then you can't do anything else.
 

klingsor

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turnbuckle said:
What a surprise. A huge day for the Pittsburgh franchise (congratulations), and what should have been a classy thread offering congratulations gets hijacked by Vlad and his own personal agenda. We have unfortunately heard this unfounded whining about Pittsburgh on many occasions in the past, give it a rest. Your constant need for attention has once again been realized - are you happy now? I ws actually enjoying reading this thread and some of the classy comments being offered by the losers until you decided it had to be about you for about the zillionth time around here. Maturity can be a long drawn out process sometimes, particularly in your case. Good look in acquiring some.

Congrats to Pitt.

Hey turnbuckle. Please clear your PMs.
 

FlyersHomer DM03

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well i've always said how i've missed the pittsburgh/philly rivalry being of importance, certainly sidney gives them a chance to do something...

and its good to see him go to a struggling market and hopefully generate some revenue from...a team that really hasn't
 
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