Confirmed with Link: Penguins trade Scott Wilson + 2018 3rd rd. pick for Riley Sheahan + 2018 5th rd. pick

[ColePens]

I'm starting to think having the best roster on paper to start the season is more important than winning Cups to pixie.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Ray Shero was never really the problem. He was and is a solid GM. One who you don't want to trade with, if you can help it.

His only real downfall was insisting on hitching his wagon to a loser. I would also contend that his drafting strategy was bonkers but he hit on some forwards nobody really expected him to... so kind of a wash there, now. He also had a stubborn streak a mile wide. It sometimes served him well but ultimately cost him his job. Finally, I'm not too sure if he had great ideas about who to surround his breadwinners with. But frankly a lot of that was probably the dummy coach.

I still consider Shero a big reason for the Penguins success. It's a bit easier to say years and two Cups later, though.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

GMs have shelflifes and Shero's ended... probably around 2012, tbh. Bylsma should have been fired or given his final warning, Fleury's problems should have been dealt with more aggressively, wanting to give Staal that contract was ridiculous, the god damned Pouliot pick and then 2013 happened. 2013 should have been the final straw but Bylsma stayed and bad contracts were handed out. 2014 was just some stupid mad scramble not to get fired without any plan. The loyalty, early tenure drafting problems, draft philosophy and the problems with playing youth caught up with him.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Oh yeah... I forgot about him trying desperately and pathetically to hold on to his draft baby by rolling up a wheelbarrow filled with cash. That was bad. Luckily our current GM thought he was playing a Staal-themed version of Pokemon at the time, so damage avoided. Oh... and despite all of the fan-service to the contrary... Staal simply didn't want to be a Penguin, anymore.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm starting to think having the best roster on paper to start the season is more important than winning Cups to pixie.

This whole argument spawned from you criticizing the Sheahan trade.

 

[Gurglesons]

Why not? Even though he didn't win 2 Cups, he was pretty good. If he won 2 Cups, I would say "cemented" as well. I would say Shero was very good. I think many of us agree he was a very solid GM. In fact, I believe his failing moment was hanging on to DB too long. Look now how he's adapting w/ NJ. He notices speed won the Pens cups. He's trying to adjust.

Cool, hopefully you are this even keel about Rutherford if his moves lead to a first round exit in consecutive years.

I know I'll bite and admit my feelings on the summer were completely wrong just like the Hags deal which I thought was ridiculous given our cap issues.

I'm not trying to say Rutherford has been a bad GM, just he has historical habits and in two of the years he has been here we've seen them work out absolutely perfectly. The other one was a disaster. And this year still has to play out.

 

[Pens x]

Shero was a crappy gm overall. We literally didn't produce a single forward until after he left the Pens. Jordan Staal was pretty much the only NHL regular forward produced during his tenure. Then he offered him $60 million. I know he drafted Guentzel which worked out great for the Pens.

Look at his first round picks, they are straight up depressing. He had some strange obsession with Dmen who never actually developed into good players. Harrington, Morrow, Samuelsson, Pouliot, etc. So many posters vehemently defended him screaming you have to take the BPA! He never turned any of these idiots into anything by trade.

Shero threw away draft picks at the deadline year after year. He was loyal to vets and overpaid guys last their primes. He never surrounded Sid and Geno with sufficient talent. They always had to make do with crap players.

The Hosea and Neal trades were very good but he made so many stupid decisions.

 

[HandshakeLine]

So then you believe Shero cemented his legacy here as well, given he had back to back appearances as well?

Shero's legacy will be that of a decent GM who made some rookie mistakes in his first job.

Still don't know what that has to do with your argument, though.

 

[Peat]

I'm starting to think having the best roster on paper to start the season is more important than winning Cups to pixie.

I'm pretty sure winning the argument beats both Not that Pixies is alone in going overboard with an argument instead of accepting that it's better to wait and see how it turns out.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Oh yeah... I forgot about him trying desperately and pathetically to hold on to his draft baby by rolling up a wheelbarrow filled with cash. That was bad. Luckily our current GM thought he was playing a Staal-themed version of Pokemon at the time, so damage avoided. Oh... and despite all of the fan-service to the contrary... Staal simply didn't want to be a Penguin, anymore.

Yeah and iirc there's an interview after being fired where Shero said his biggest mistake was losing Staal. Shero got saved from himself there because JR wanted the complete set and Staal wanted more than being a 3C. Now our old Staal is the only Staal there and I suppose no one completely got what they wanted when it was all said and done.

And, with Scuderi, Kunitz and Dupuis he gave older players those contracts after a lockout shortened season. Adams also got that moronic 35+ contract.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Shero was a crappy gm overall. We literally didn't produce a single forward until after he left the Pens. Jordan Staal was pretty much the only NHL regular forward produced during his tenure. Then he offered him $60 million. I know he drafted Guentzel which worked out great for the Pens.

Look at his first round picks, they are straight up depressing. He had some strange obsession with Dmen who never actually developed into good players. Harrington, Morrow, Samuelsson, Pouliot, etc. So many posters vehemently defended him screaming you have to take the BPA! He never turned any of these idiots into anything by trade.

Shero threw away draft picks at the deadline year after year. He was loyal to vets and overpaid guys last their primes. He never surrounded Sid and Geno with sufficient talent. They always had to make do with crap players.

The Hosea and Neal trades were very good but he made so many stupid decisions.

Have you enjoyed being a Pens fan at any point in time?

I've never seen so much doom and gloom from someone who follows a team that's won 3 Cups in the past decade. Reading your posts, I sometimes think I ended up on the Arizona or Florida boards with how disappointing so much of the past few years seem to be for you.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I've noticed that a lot of the folks who are hesitant to give JR credit were the most vocal defenders of Shero when he was fired. So to them acknowledging JR's positive contributions means they were wrong about their insistence Shero was doing a good job as GM.

I've felt like both Patrick and Shero have posthumously won cups for this franchise with their moves before they were fired.

However, Shero walked into a golden opportunity and kind of found a way to f*** it all up. The mess he left behind for JR to clean up, far exceeded the pieces he bequeathed to him.

JR gave this org a legacy they were in danger of losing because of the prior regime, and without him, we would have been talking for years on end how the Pens blew two generational talents. It would have haunted this franchise for years.

Any Pens fan who doesn't get that, needs a reality check back to the summer of 2014.

 

[Gurglesons]

I've felt like both Patrick and Shero have posthumously won cups for this franchise with their moves before they were fired.

However, Shero walked into a golden opportunity and kind of found a way to **** it all up. The mess he left behind for JR to clean up, far exceeded the pieces he bequeathed to him.

JR gave this org a legacy they were in danger of losing because of the prior regime, and without him, we would have been talking for years on end how the Pens blew two generational talents. It would have haunted this franchise for years.

Any Pens fan who doesn't get that, needs a reality check back to the summer of 2014.

Or you know, just realize that Shero was under significant cap issues and we made two cup finals and an ECF during his run. We were the third best team in the league during that time and his prospects and organizational structure have helped us become the best team in the league since the 05 lock out.

Just like if Rutherford totally screws the pooch the next two years it honestly shouldn't be viewed as a negative tenure. He won us two cups.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Or you know, just realize that Shero was under significant cap issues and we made two cup finals and an ECF during his run. We were the third best team in the league during that time and his prospects and organizational structure have helped us become the best team in the league since the 05 lock out.

Just like if Rutherford totally screws the pooch the next two years it honestly shouldn't be viewed as a negative tenure. He won us two cups.

My opinion of Shero is his Penguins tenure can be split into two time frames:

1-Pre-2009, where he seemed to have a clear direction and made the necessary moves to build a Cup champion.

2-Post-2009, where he seemed to lose the script and resulted in an underachieving Pens team year after year.

It's almost as though Shero became a completely different GM after he won the Cup.

Hopefully Rutherford can avoid Shero's pitfalls.

 

[Gurglesons]

You mean pre-ELC Malkin and Crosby and post-ELC Malkin and Crosby.

Shero's main issue was his alignment and trust in a coach who was a lot of times the antithesis of what he tried to build.

I'd love to hear the reasoning behind Shero keeping Danny B and how it relates to how his dad was treated by the Flyers.

I would also love to hear off the record how ownership effected him and Rutherford.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You mean pre-ELC Malkin and Crosby and post-ELC Malkin and Crosby.

Crosby was already making $8.7 by the time the first Cup happened. Malkin's salary is the only one that went up. But that just goes back to Shero being questionable when he had to actually balance the salary cap with building a deep roster.

JR's had to deal with both Crosby and Malkin on their expensive deals rather than on ELCs. He's done a better job of making sure the depth still is there.

All you've proved is Shero wasn't very good at managing the cap when his stars were paid their actual value.

 

[Gurglesons]

Crosby was already making $8.7 by the time the first Cup happened. Malkin's salary is the only one that went up. But that just goes back to Shero being questionable when he had to actually balance the salary cap with building a deep roster.

JR's had to deal with both Crosby and Malkin on their expensive deals rather than on ELCs. He's done a better job of making sure the depth still is there.

All you've proved is Shero wasn't very good at managing the cap when his stars were paid their actual value.

Plllllease. Rutherford has had almost 10% more cap space in terms of what Crosby and Malkin were taking up during Shero's time here.

If you're going to bring up pre-09 and post-09 it is pretty obvious what happened and if want to deny it is going to happen the next two years good luck. Rutherford will show that he was better at managing the cap in the next two years.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Or you know, just realize that Shero was under significant cap issues and we made two cup finals and an ECF during his run. We were the third best team in the league during that time and his prospects and organizational structure have helped us become the best team in the league since the 05 lock out.

Just like if Rutherford totally screws the pooch the next two years it honestly shouldn't be viewed as a negative tenure. He won us two cups.

Or you know, realize Shero had the wrong vision for his team.

He and his scouts flat out admitted they felt they could focus on the blueline and put lesser talented players around Crosby and Malkin because they "could elevate lesser players".

I do enjoy the irony in you saying JR got lucky making good trades based around his vision and doing his homework, but not admitting Shero hitting on a few gems in the late rounds (Murray, Guentzel, Rust) wasn't pure luck.

 

[HandshakeLine]

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Plllllease. Rutherford has had almost 10% more cap space in terms of what Crosby and Malkin were taking up during Shero's time here.

If you're going to bring up pre-09 and post-09 it is pretty obvious what happened and if want to deny it is going to happen the next two years good luck. Rutherford will show that he was better at managing the cap in the next two years.

So you're just going to ignore being wrong about Crosby being on his ELC during their first Cup?

I mean, this is the problem with you, pixie. You'll make an incorrect statement (both Crosby and Malkin were on their ELC when we won in 2009 -- both got raises after the Cup win), then change the parameters of the discussion to gloss over the fact your original conclusion had flaws in it.

The bottom line is Shero made some questionable moves after 2009 that had zero to do with Crosby and Malkin's cap hits, while most of his moves prior to 2009 seemed to actually have a vision in mind.

 

[ColePens]

I've felt like both Patrick and Shero have posthumously won cups for this franchise with their moves before they were fired.

However, Shero walked into a golden opportunity and kind of found a way to **** it all up. The mess he left behind for JR to clean up, far exceeded the pieces he bequeathed to him.

JR gave this org a legacy they were in danger of losing because of the prior regime, and without him, we would have been talking for years on end how the Pens blew two generational talents. It would have haunted this franchise for years.

Any Pens fan who doesn't get that, needs a reality check back to the summer of 2014.

I'm so happy we can like posts... but this needs quoted to remind us over and over and over again how good we got it.

And even if I dislike a Reaves or Sheahan deal, they are so small in comparison to the thought of feeling 2014 summer all over again.

 

[Riptide]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/penguins-agree-to-terms-with-matt-cullen-1-year-800k.1938139/

A good read at the reactions in this thread in regards to another move. People making up conclusions before it's even begun.

Part of me wishes I posted in these threads more often (other than just the cap ones) so that I could look back on things after the fact.

 

[ColePens]

Shero was a crappy gm overall. We literally didn't produce a single forward until after he left the Pens. Jordan Staal was pretty much the only NHL regular forward produced during his tenure. Then he offered him $60 million. I know he drafted Guentzel which worked out great for the Pens.

Look at his first round picks, they are straight up depressing. He had some strange obsession with Dmen who never actually developed into good players. Harrington, Morrow, Samuelsson, Pouliot, etc. So many posters vehemently defended him screaming you have to take the BPA! He never turned any of these idiots into anything by trade.

Shero threw away draft picks at the deadline year after year. He was loyal to vets and overpaid guys last their primes. He never surrounded Sid and Geno with sufficient talent. They always had to make do with crap players.

The Hosea and Neal trades were very good but he made so many stupid decisions.

I... didn't know the only job of a GM is to develop wingerz! I mean... he was very close to signing Parise and Hossa and the both chose different teams. Goodness gracious, Pens X. Sometimes I think you try to post stuff like this just to get lols from everyone else.

I think the right idea is the mind-frame Jiggy just had. It's okay to give the guy credit and realize he made some mistakes, too. Shit happens. Nobody is perfect. I won't look at the Patrick or Shero era in shame. I won't ever hate those guys. They weren't awful GMs. But it does really put into light what JR was able to accomplish. Just insanely impressive.

 

[Riptide]

I think when moves made for a specific reason are called lucky, it's difficult to take the point seriously.

A good GM identifies players who they believe will fit a system or a team or a certain role on a team, then goes out and gets them. Those players panning out doesn't mean he was "lucky".

Lucky would be something like trading Malkin for Alex Galchenyuk, where Malkin gets injured his first game for his new team while Galchenyuk goes on to become a top five player in hockey. In other words, lucky is when something that absolutely no one could foresee takes place that resulted in what looked like a questionable move at the time becoming a good move.

I think some of the moves were lucky ones. I have no issues with that. Moving the 1st for Perron and then trading him for Hagelin I think could fall under getting lucky. Same with moving Despres for Lovejoy and it panning out - or at least in the sense that it worked out okay in the end. But The Keseel deal, the Hornqvist deal and the Daley deal's were not luck. Same with Schultz. And signing Cullen was never luck. The guy was still a good player.

 

[Riptide]

Ok. That is what I'm saying.

If everything is just a matter of luck, then you can't criticize them either... because they weren't bad... just "unlucky". I mean if their successes are "luck" then their failures must be "unlucky".