Confirmed with Link: Penguins trade Scott Wilson + 2018 3rd rd. pick for Riley Sheahan + 2018 5th rd. pick

[HandshakeLine]

This is huge. You're not going to hit on everything, and his willingness to cut ties and move on is so refreshing vs shero.

And I agree that fehr and streit were low risk guys and I can't see how you can criticize them, let's also not get carried away by saying streit helped us win a cup. He was bad, even if the move wasn't.

I like how this thread is evolving into a discussion about GMing philosophies. It's a nice change of pace from how trade threads usually go.

Shero's biggest weakness as a GM was his, as you point out, unwillingness to change things up. Perhaps that was because we were his first team where he got to be a GM, since he seems to be a bit more flexible in Jersey now. There's some wisdom there-- look at the Gonchar signing, for example. Gonch's first season here, he was atrocious, but he evolved into a significant part of that Cup winning squad because Shero didn't panic and ship him out after a problematic season.

It's interesting to me that the big issue right now is supposed team identity. It's a valid concern, but at the same time, team identity can and should shift, depending on who's available, who's still on the roster, and how teams are playing. Holding onto a team identity when you don't have the players to play it is just as weird to me as keeping a coach on the team because he won a Cup a few seasons back and hasn't had results since. You have to be realistic about what improves your chances the most this particular season, not what worked last year or the year before.

And on that level, I get what GMJR is doing- he's saying "Well, I lost some important pieces in the off-season, the other pieces we brought in for the beginning of the season are struggling-- it's time to re-evaluate this a bit." And if it totally falls apart, that's on him, and rightly so. But, at the same time, he has to experiment and put together the roster that best utilizes the core, and for that, I'll give him some leeway and time, just like I'd give any other GM in that position.

 

[Shady Machine]

Conversely, over the summer we gave up a center prospect and moved down from the 1st round into the 2nd in order to get a winger.

Yeah and I said that was really stupid haha.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I've criticized three moves I think during Rutherford's tenure? Hagelin, Hunwick and Reaves. I guess four if you want to tie in the moving on from Bonino thing, but like I've consistently said I don't think that is a bad move. I was completely wrong on Hags, and I would never take back that deal. I'm just saying the viewing of that deal is based on the HBK line. In reality, he has been a non-factor since that run.

I just don't think JR is the mastermind that people are trying to make him out to be. He made moves that turned out to be exactly what we needed. I think he also comes off as extremely arrogant. The fact he had the balls to say that his best years of GMing were in Carolina from 10 - 14 is a complete joke. His viewpoint on the genius of the Niemi signing this summer. He's a weird dude. I'm glad he is more prone to fixing his mistakes quickly versus Shero. Like I said above, the next two years will have a lot to do with how we view his tenure here. Sully and him were absolutely dominate in their moves and guidance of the team in 15-16.

In terms of 16-17, I don't really think roster construction won us a cup. I think Sullivan's coaching was hugely responsible for that. I don't really believe 16-17 is a season we should try to emulate.

Nobody's saying Rutherford's a mastermind. They're saying he's been a great GM for us who's had an incredible run the last couple years - and I say this as a guy who ripped on him more than practically anyone when he came here because of his dubious track record. The question is who exactly do you think is better/not lucky? Where are these GMs who've had such pristine track records that they can boast a comparably good run to Rutherford's recent one but without his previous mistakes?

I'm genuinely curious, because anyone can criticize a GM's work in a vacuum. When you have to actually compare his work to others, you find out that every GM has made mistakes, but only a rare few have had the sort of success JR's had here.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This is giving me flashbacks to the Shero/Patrick debates that used to rage here.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yeah and I said that was really stupid haha.

But by the same token, isn't it possible that Sheahan's acquisition was less a commentary on how expensive centers are in today's NHL, and just not a great move in terms of value that placed too much emphasis on his past track record?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

This is huge. You're not going to hit on everything, and his willingness to cut ties and move on is so refreshing vs shero.

And I agree that fehr and streit were low risk guys and I can't see how you can criticize them, let's also not get carried away by saying streit helped us win a cup. He was bad, even if the move wasn't.

Streit most certainly made a contribution when his number was called. It isn't like he came in and played in 2-3 games and we never saw him again.

Streit came in after the deadline while they were jockeying for position and played some pretty heavy minutes (18-20 a night) when their blueline was banged up to hell.

Even though he only played in a few playoff games, you can't discount that he was needed down the stretch when the team was limping along.

It just seems like a very odd choice to call out trading a fourth rounder for a depth defenseman that was actually needed.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think Hainsey trolling James Neal in the finals should be memorialized with a 5 minute supercut on the jumbotron when GMJR retires or is fired.

 

[Shady Machine]

But by the same token, isn't it possible that Sheahan's acquisition was less a commentary on how expensive centers are in today's NHL, and just not a great move in terms of value that placed too much emphasis on his past track record?

Actually, thinking about it more, the Reaves and Sheahan trades are similar. It's all about supply and demand. JR demanded a player like Reaves, not many of them are available and St Louis wasn't trying to move him, so JR had to pay the price to get him.

Likewise, centers worth a damn are rare and expensive. As such, even ones coming off of really poor seasons cost solid assets. It was obvious to anyone being honest about the Pens roster situation that they NEEDED a center that can fill a 2 way role like a Bones, even if that player is worse than Bones, and they needed it soon. Despite Detroit needing to move Sheahan, they likely weren't going to give him away if they can help it and JR would have lost if Detroit put him on waivers.

So JR identified a man and paid the price.

I think it's fair to say that JR tends to overpay for needs, real or perceived, once he identifies a target. Without knowing who else may have been interested in Sheahan or what other centers are realistically available, it's tough to know for sure.

My criticism of JR with the Reaves deal is that I don't believe he was a need. While I don't care for Sheahan, a player like him is an absolute need and if it costs Wilson + 3rd to risk losing him to waivers, I'm okay with that.

 

[Andy99]

I like how this thread is evolving into a discussion about GMing philosophies. It's a nice change of pace from how trade threads usually go.

Shero's biggest weakness as a GM was his, as you point out, unwillingness to change things up. Perhaps that was because we were his first team where he got to be a GM, since he seems to be a bit more flexible in Jersey now. There's some wisdom there-- look at the Gonchar signing, for example. Gonch's first season here, he was atrocious, but he evolved into a significant part of that Cup winning squad because Shero didn't panic and ship him out after a problematic season.

It's interesting to me that the big issue right now is supposed team identity. It's a valid concern, but at the same time, team identity can and should shift, depending on who's available, who's still on the roster, and how teams are playing. Holding onto a team identity when you don't have the players to play it is just as weird to me as keeping a coach on the team because he won a Cup a few seasons back and hasn't had results since. You have to be realistic about what improves your chances the most this particular season, not what worked last year or the year before.

And on that level, I get what GMJR is doing- he's saying "Well, I lost some important pieces in the off-season, the other pieces we brought in for the beginning of the season are struggling-- it's time to re-evaluate this a bit." And if it totally falls apart, that's on him, and rightly so. But, at the same time, he has to experiment and put together the roster that best utilizes the core, and for that, I'll give him some leeway and time, just like I'd give any other GM in that position.

I think his moves are in part a realization that an identity based solely on speed is unsustainable, at least in the RS. They really haven't played that way since the 2015-16 playoff push. Last year they were able to cover for it with an unsustainable shooting percentage fueled by big years from both Sid and Geno. This year they are starting out the same way, being unable to get out of their own end for quick transition and not possessing the puck enough in the O zone. But they're not getting the "luck" (I'll call it that) or the big games consistently from the stars. It might happen. But what if it doesn't. I think it's shrewd to try to add some "beef" to see if it can help keep the winning going in the RS and to accumulate points. May not work, we'll see. But I do think there's a plan there and I think it's based on realization that their identity is not sustainable through 82 games if you want to play that way in the playoffs

 

[SarahCrash]

honestly thought the Pens would have targeted Erik Haula, but this is a good return for Scott Wilson. Still does not fill our needs. However, I'm sure Sheahan can revitalize his career some.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nobody's saying Rutherford's a mastermind. They're saying he's been a great GM for us who's had an incredible run the last couple years - and I say this as a guy who ripped on him more than practically anyone when he came here because of his dubious track record. The question is who exactly do you think is better/not lucky? Where are these GMs who've had such pristine track records that they can boast a comparably good run to Rutherford's recent one but without his previous mistakes?

I'm genuinely curious, because anyone can criticize a GM's work in a vacuum. When you have to actually compare his work to others, you find out that every GM has made mistakes, but only a rare few have had the sort of success JR's had here.

In the last two years? Nobody has been as solid as tinkering with a line-up as Rutherford as evident by his cup wins. That doesn't mean I believe that he had a plan for all of his moves. I think that is evident by 14-15 and this year.

I think in terms of actually building a team Yzerman, Francis and Shanahan / Lou have a bigger impact on their teams. The next two years will define whether Rutherford is as smart as we think he has been or if he just threw some pieces around and they stuck.

 

[ColePens]

honestly thought the Pens would have targeted Erik Haula, but this is a good return for Scott Wilson. Still does not fill our needs. However, I'm sure Sheahan can revitalize his career some.

Stahp... I want Haula so bad. When I watch that kid play, I see him in a Pens uniform. Boy can he fly.

 

[ColePens]

In the last two years? Nobody has been as solid as tinkering with a line-up as Rutherford as evident by his cup wins. That doesn't mean I believe that he had a plan for all of his moves. I think that is evident by 14-15 and this year.

I think in terms of actually building a team Yzerman, Francis and Shanahan / Lou have a bigger impact on their teams. The next two years will define whether Rutherford is as smart as we think he has been or if he just threw some pieces around and they stuck.

This will hurt you a bit, but JR cemented his legacy as a Pens GM whether you like it or not with b2b Cups when it looked like we'd be lucky to get one more in the 87/71 era. I was a believer in the team's core, but boy it looked a bit on thin ice after that Boston beat down.

 

[Gurglesons]

This will hurt you a bit, but JR cemented his legacy as a Pens GM whether you like it or not with b2b Cups when it looked like we'd be lucky to get one more in the 87/71 era. I was a believer in the team's core, but boy it looked a bit on thin ice after that Boston beat down.

So then you believe Shero cemented his legacy here as well, given he had back to back appearances as well?

 

[Shockmaster]

In the last two years? Nobody has been as solid as tinkering with a line-up as Rutherford as evident by his cup wins. That doesn't mean I believe that he had a plan for all of his moves. I think that is evident by 14-15 and this year.

I think in terms of actually building a team Yzerman, Francis and Shanahan / Lou have a bigger impact on their teams. The next two years will define whether Rutherford is as smart as we think he has been or if he just threw some pieces around and they stuck.

This is typical main board gibberish right here. GMs who just stockpile picks and prospects are regarded higher than GMs who’s teams have actually won Cups.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is typical main board gibberish right here. GMs who just stockpile picks and prospects are regarded higher than GMs who’s teams have actually won Cups.

GMs who make continuous logical moves and build their own teams from within are going to get more credit as GMs versus Rutherford's approach.

Like I said, it is tough to argue against Rutherford's record the past two years. His history as a GM doesn't support him being the genius people want to make him out to be for those two years though. Perron / Hagelin, Despres / Lovejoy, etc. could have all blown up in our face. That is what I mean when I say he is lucky. Does anything Yzerman has done since he got to Tampa strike you as lucky outside of prospect development?

 

[Shockmaster]

GMs who make continuous logical moves and build their own teams from within are going to get more credit as GMs versus Rutherford's approach.

Rust, Sheary, and Guentzel all came from "within." What exactly are you trying to get at? That GMs shouldn't make trades. And perhaps those giving credit to some of the no-Cup GMs need to re-evaluate what they think makes a good GM.

Like I said, it is tough to argue against Rutherford's record the past two years. His history as a GM doesn't support him being the genius people want to make him out to be for those two years though. Perron / Hagelin, Despres / Lovejoy, etc. could have all blown up in our face. That is what I mean when I say he is lucky. Does anything Yzerman has done since he got to Tampa strike you as lucky outside of prospect development?

Kunitz, Girardi, and Callahan were all really dumb moves by Yzerman. Just a trio of aging, broken down vets.

 

[Gurglesons]

Rust, Sheary, and Guentzel all came from "within." What exactly are you trying to get at? That GMs shouldn't make trades. And perhaps those giving credit to some of the no-Cup GMs need to re-evaluate what they think makes a good GM.

Jake and Rust aren't Rutherford's assets much like Letang and Kennedy weren't Shero's. I'll give you Sheary as Rutherford's staff saw enough in him to retain him after we signed him.

If you want to give someone credit for the youth infusion, look at our coach.

My main point here is that Rutherford has a penchant for over paying and illogical moves. They worked out the past two years, but don't be surprised and critical of deals like the Sheahan one.

Kunitz, Girardi, and Callahan were all really dumb moves by Yzerman. Just a trio of aging, broken down vets.

Kunitz and Girardi have played seven games. Yzerman's cap structure has resulted in them losing one player because of Cally. That player was moved for one of the best defense prospects in the league. Not to mention that deal was more rooted in the expansion draft.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'm not sure why JR's long term history in Carolina is more relevant than the work he has done in Pittsburgh. It's certainly interesting to look at the past, but Carolina was a totally different organization and situation. He hasn't really made many illogical moves in Pittsburgh and the ones he has made were short term and not high impact.

There are likely some trends and tenancies that you can tie between moves made in both organizations (overpaying in trades for players/positions he wants), but we need to judge him primarily on the moves he has made in Pittsburgh and on the whole, he has done a very good job.

I'm far from a "JR is the best GM ever" kind of guy, but I think it's unfair to chalk up most of his success as luck.

It's also really hard to know which moves a GM leads themselves vs which ones are lead by their staff (Botts, Guerin, Karmanos, etc), but he is the GM, so from Shady Machine, he will get credit for the moves that turn out well and criticism from the moves that don't. I have concerns about some of the moves made this off season and have voiced those repeatedly, but I am certainly aware that I could end up looking like a fool.

The one move where some form of luck (or incredible foresight) was involved was the hiring of Sully. JR deserves credit for that hire, but I doubt anyone in the organization knew Sully would be the perfect hire that would change the Penguins identity and deliver this kind of result.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Jake and Rust aren't Rutherford's assets much like Letang and Kennedy weren't Shero's. I'll give you Sheary as Rutherford's staff saw enough in him to retain him after we signed him.

If you want to give someone credit for the youth infusion, look at our coach.

My main point here is that Rutherford has a penchant for over paying and illogical moves. They worked out the past two years, but don't be surprised and critical of deals like the Sheahan one.

I'll just point out that if you're going to start refusing to give credit to JR for anything he did that involves prospects drafted before him, then you better admit that Ray Shero doesn't deserve even an iota of credit for the 2009 Cup because all his success was due to who Patrick drafted.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

In the last two years? Nobody has been as solid as tinkering with a line-up as Rutherford as evident by his cup wins. That doesn't mean I believe that he had a plan for all of his moves. I think that is evident by 14-15 and this year.

I think in terms of actually building a team Yzerman, Francis and Shanahan / Lou have a bigger impact on their teams. The next two years will define whether Rutherford is as smart as we think he has been or if he just threw some pieces around and they stuck.

LL is the only GM of the ones you mention to assemble a cup winner, and his last ten or so years in NJ were quite dubious to say the least.

All of the situations LL, Yzerman and Francis took hold of, were vastly different than what JR walked into. All three teams were ready made for a long rebuild, while the Pens asked JR to cast his magic wand and save the remnants of a failed dynasty.

Just a slightly different situation and what JR did is nothing short of a miracle, yet you and others want to call him lucky, while I've seen a multitude of people try to credit Botterill as the real mastermind.

The same Botterill who was around when the huge mess was being made for JR to fix.

 

[Shockmaster]

Jake and Rust aren't Rutherford's assets much like Letang and Kennedy weren't Shero's. I'll give you Sheary as Rutherford's staff saw enough in him to retain him after we signed him.

Regardless of which GM they were drafted/signed under, they still came from within the Penguins system and were brought up. They weren't traded for or overpaid by Rutherford. Shero often enough didn't trust his own draft picks, and signed too many veteran FA's as a result.

If you want to give someone credit for the youth infusion, look at our coach.

Okay, but give the GM credit for realizing the last coach wasn't trusting youth enough and made a change.

My main point here is that Rutherford has a penchant for over paying and illogical moves. They worked out the past two years, but don't be surprised and critical of deals like the Sheahan one.





Kunitz and Girardi have played seven games. Yzerman's cap structure has resulted in them losing one player because of Cally. That player was moved for one of the best defense prospects in the league. Not to mention that deal was more rooted in the expansion draft.

You know what other GMs have made illogical moves - all of them. You'd be hard-pressed to not find a GM who at one point or another has made a mistake. In recent years, Rutherford has made a lot fewer than the rest, including no-Cup Teflon Yzerman. You just seem to want o make excuses for all other GMs for some reason, as if you're still bitter about Shero being fired.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'll just point out that if you're going to start refusing to give credit to JR for anything he did that involves prospects drafted before him, then you better admit that Ray Shero doesn't deserve even an iota of credit for the 2009 Cup because all his success was due to who Patrick drafted.

I can agree with that, but he also put together a consistent contender and set the organization up for the back to back cup run in terms of structure, and honestly many of the people that were involved in management the past two years.

I'm not trying to say what Rutherford did isn't miraculous or isn't unprecedented in this era. I'm pointing out the flaws in some people saying we should blindly follow his decisions because they worked the past two years. The past two years were the perfect culmination of a shit ton of skilled depth playing up to their highest potential, every trade working out the way we had hoped and Crosby, Kessel and Malkin going god mode two years in a row in the playoffs.

The next two years are when the actual tough decisions are made, and that doesn't take away what Rutherford has done here. But it will be the difference between being back to back winners and a dynasty.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

LL is the only GM of the ones you mention to assemble a cup winner, and his last ten or so years in NJ were quite dubious to say the least.

All of the situations LL, Yzerman and Francis took hold of, were vastly different than what JR walked into. All three teams were ready made for a long rebuild, while the Pens asked JR to cast his magic wand and save the remnants of a failed dynasty.

Just a slightly different situation and what JR did is nothing short of a miracle, yet you and others want to call him lucky, while I've seen a multitude of people try to credit Botterill as the real mastermind.

The same Botterill who was around when the huge mess was being made for JR to fix.

I've noticed that a lot of the folks who are hesitant to give JR credit were the most vocal defenders of Shero when he was fired. So to them acknowledging JR's positive contributions means they were wrong about their insistence Shero was doing a good job as GM.

 

[ColePens]

So then you believe Shero cemented his legacy here as well, given he had back to back appearances as well?

Why not? Even though he didn't win 2 Cups, he was pretty good. If he won 2 Cups, I would say "cemented" as well. I would say Shero was very good. I think many of us agree he was a very solid GM. In fact, I believe his failing moment was hanging on to DB too long. Look now how he's adapting w/ NJ. He notices speed won the Pens cups. He's trying to adjust.