Confirmed with Link: Penguins sign Chris Kunitz to 3 year extension ($3.85M AAV)

[Ogrezilla]

Which brings me back to my point from earlier; if he's not gonna get rid of the coach, he needs to get rid of the player that is messing up the top 6.

Like I said, it's like Moneyball where Billy Beane traded Carlos Peña to force Art Howe to play Scott Hatteberg.

Except Dupuis should still be playing, just in a different spot.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Except Dupuis should still be playing, just in a different spot.

So fire the coach.

Again either the coach or the player needed to go. Shero extended both.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So fire the coach.

Again either the coach or the player needed to go. Shero extended both.

I am really hoping that Martin can help Disco see the light. But ya, I am definitely not a Disco fan. You won't get an argument from me on that front.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I am really hoping that Martin can help Disco see the light. But ya, I am definitely not a Disco fan. You won't get an argument from me on that front.

Dupuis could be everyone's favorite player if used correctly. But because DB has him attached to Sid's hip and Shero gave him 3.75M for the next 4 years he's gonna get a lot of hate. Same with Kuni, but to a lesser extent because he's shown that he's a top 6 player for much longer than Duper.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Dupuis could be everyone's favorite player if used correctly. But because DB has him attached to Sid's hip and Shero gave him 3.75M for the next 4 years he's gonna get a lot of hate. Same with Kuni, but to a lesser extent because he's shown that he's a top 6 player for much longer than Duper.

I would love to see what this team could do with a coach willing to experiment. Be fluid with the lines. Have a lead and a defensive zone draw? Sure, that's where I don't mind KCD. But when we are trailing all game and Dupuis is getting more ice time than Evgeni Malkin, there is a serious problem.

 

[JTG]

If Sidney Crosby didn't want Pascal Dupuis on his wing, Pascal Dupuis wouldn't be there. We can debate back and forth about who should be there all we want. 87 wants Dupuis. He feels Dupuis gives him the best opportunity to do his best and makes him the most comfortable. Whether Dupuis is the best fit there to us is irrelevant. The man who it is relevant to wants him there.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If Sidney Crosby didn't want Pascal Dupuis on his wing, Pascal Dupuis wouldn't be there. We can debate back and forth about who should be there all we want. 87 wants Dupuis. He feels Dupuis gives him the best opportunity to do his best and makes him the most comfortable. Whether Dupuis is the best fit there to us is irrelevant. The man who it is relevant to wants him there.

show me some sort of evidence to back up Sidney Crosby having more power over our lines than the head coach. Until then, I will assume that our coach does our coaching.

 

[JTG]

show me some sort of evidence to back up Sidney Crosby having more power over our lines than the head coach. Until then, I will assume that our coach does our coaching.

You honestly believe Sidney Crosby doesn't have input on who his linemates are, ESPECIALLY if he didn't like playing with a particular linemate? If Sidney Crosby really disliked playing with Pascal Dupuis, Dupuis wouldn't be there.

The coach determines the lines, but Sid sure as hell has input and I'm sure it's weighed heavily.

 

[Ogrezilla]

You honestly believe Sidney Crosby doesn't have input on who his linemates are, ESPECIALLY if he didn't like playing with a particular linemate? If Sidney Crosby really disliked playing with Pascal Dupuis, Dupuis wouldn't be there.

The coach determines the lines, but Sid sure as hell has input and I'm sure it's weighed heavily.

I'm sure he has input, ya. But if it doesn't work, the coach needs to change it.

 

[Tender Rip]

http://www.csnne.com/boston-bruins/horton-wasnt-going-wait-around-bruins

I believe 'wanting to go a place where my kids can play outside' does not really imply that Pittsburgh was not an option. Just saying.

As for the Crosby decides stuff.... with the often completely wrong/useless sidekicks Malkin has had, how come there are no such arguments for him? I mean, he is only our highest paid player, twice Art Ross + one time Conn Smythe winner, and we did not really doubt that he had clout when Therrien talked of sitting him and Malkin made clear that this meant a flight to Russia as far as he was concerned.

DB decides the lines. There is NOTHING to suggest otherwise, and even if there was, it would be on him to do the right thing just the same.

 

[JTG]

http://www.csnne.com/boston-bruins/horton-wasnt-going-wait-around-bruins

I believe 'wanting to go a place where my kids can play outside' does not really imply that Pittsburgh was not an option. Just saying.

As for the Crosby decides stuff.... with the often completely wrong/useless sidekicks Malkin has had, how come there are no such arguments for him? I mean, he is only our highest paid player, twice Art Ross + one time Conn Smythe winner, and we did not really doubt that he had clout when Therrien talked of sitting him and Malkin made clear that this meant a flight to Russia as far as he was concerned.

DB decides the lines. There is NOTHING to suggest otherwise, and even if there was, it would be on him to do the right thing just the same.

Pittsburgh wasn't an option. We weren't giving him a 7 year deal, nor should you give a 7 year deal to a guy who is a shooter and has a bum shoulder, and we have no idea how he would fit in here. Columbus gave him the very best offer he was going to get.

If Sidney Crosby didn't want to play with Pascal Dupuis, Dupuis wouldn't have been on Sid's hip for this long. Sid enjoys playing with him, and he has said as much in many interviews.

I think Bennett is a better fit in that spot too, but it is what it is.

 

[Tender Rip]

Pittsburgh wasn't an option. We weren't giving him a 7 year deal, nor should you give a 7 year deal to a guy who is a shooter and has a bum shoulder, and we have no idea how he would fit in here. Columbus gave him the very best offer he was going to get.

Pssst, dude! Just like he could have taken a different deal from Boston if they had approached him, he could have taken a different deal from the Pens. None of us can ever know, I am simply pointing to first the fallacy that there were no other/better options in free agency and secondly that he was 'never signing with Pittsburgh because he wanted a small market'. These are just trivial arguments and now it is then on to moving to a new goal post. Horton at 5.3 million is a discount that justified the 7 year deal, not least because of his age and recent performances where it matters. 36 points in 43 playoff games matter.
7 years? Yeah, a tad long, but it is hardly a cap killer with where it is supposed/likely to be at in just 5 years.

If Sidney Crosby didn't want to play with Pascal Dupuis, Dupuis wouldn't have been on Sid's hip for this long. Sid enjoys playing with him, and he has said as much in many interviews.

Sid will never ever publicly say that there is a team mate he does not want to play with, and you know that. It is also highly unlikely he said "I don't want to play with Jarome Iginla". Again, never mind what he wants or does not want, it is up to the coach to make the right decisions. My final point on that is simply to ask you if you think Crosby will throw a hissy fit about Dupuis NOT being there? He will do so no more than he did when Armstrong was traded, and no more than Geno did when Gonchar and Talbot were not extended. These guys are pros who want to win.

I think Bennett is a better fit in that spot too, but it is what it is.

Yeah, it is what it is, and we don't have to obsess about it all the time, but we also don't need to make up elaborate reasons to suggest that Shero's decision to extend Duper was not questionable.

 

[Dupree13]

During the playoffs last year, when everyone was pulling their hair out at K-C-D being joined at the hip while Iginla was playing out of position, it was hinted at by Josh Yohe that Sid had some input on that situation. When they desperately needed some kind of jolt against Boston, Byslma shook up every other line except that one.

Then you had Sid in multiple interviews come out and say that he prefers to play with those guys. Some said he was just answering the question, but usually guys will give a non-answer to those questions so to me that was noteworthy.

There's not zero evidence to the idea that Sid could exercise "soft power" over the coach to get the line-mates he wants. Maybe there's not incredibly strong evidence, but there's not zero reason to think it. And it makes sense that a franchise player who happens to be good friends with the owner is more powerful than any coach. Doesn't mean that he's running rampant with his power, but he has that power for sure.

 

[#66]

Sid will never ever publicly say that there is a team mate he does not want to play with, and you know that. It is also highly unlikely he said "I don't want to play with Jarome Iginla". Again, never mind what he wants or does not want, it is up to the coach to make the right decisions. My final point on that is simply to ask you if you think Crosby will throw a hissy fit about Dupuis NOT being there? He will do so no more than he did when Armstrong was traded, and no more than Geno did when Gonchar and Talbot were not extended. These guys are pros who want to win.

How do you have 10,000 post on these boards and not understand that the Pens have been kneeling to their superstars for almost 30 years now? Do you think Zubov was traded for Hatcher because CP didn't like having the leagues best power play? Recchi looked pretty good winning a cup for the B's after he was run out of Pittsburgh... twice.

If my grandmother thinks Iggy should have played with Sid, I think Bylsma would too. Sid understands that he's hard to play with so when he gets a comfort level with a player he keeps them there. Its as clear as day.

 

[Til the End of Time]

Pittsburgh wasn't an option. We weren't giving him a 7 year deal, nor should you give a 7 year deal to a guy who is a shooter and has a bum shoulder, and we have no idea how he would fit in here. Columbus gave him the very best offer he was going to get.

If Sidney Crosby didn't want to play with Pascal Dupuis, Dupuis wouldn't have been on Sid's hip for this long. Sid enjoys playing with him, and he has said as much in many interviews.

I think Bennett is a better fit in that spot too, but it is what it is.

sid should not be the one making that call. even if his preference is playing with dupuis, he's enough of a team player to do what the coach tells him. and its up to the coach to make the hard decisions and maybe make his star unhappy for the betterment of the team.

if byslma is more concerned with making his star comfortable than icing the best possible team, then he's not doing his job and needs to go. same goes for shero.

this team already lost out on several potential cups because it was of their bs country club attitude where the players happiness was a higher priority than winning. it would be an absolute shame if the same crap is still going on. a shame, yes, but not really surprising considering who was running things then and who is still running things now.

 

[Ogrezilla]

sid should not be the one making that call. even if his preference is playing with dupuis, he's enough of a team player to do what the coach tells him. and its up to the coach to make the hard decisions and maybe make his star unhappy for the betterment of the team.

if byslma is more concerned with making his star comfortable than icing the best possible team, then he's not doing his job and needs to go. same goes for shero.

this team already lost out on several potential cups because it was of their bs country club attitude where the players happiness was a higher priority than winning. it would be an absolute shame if the same crap is still going on.

agreed about Bylsma needing to make the call no matter who Sid prefers to play with. If that is really the reason Dupuis is still with Sid I want Bylsma fired even more than I already do.

 

[Til the End of Time]

During the playoffs last year, when everyone was pulling their hair out at K-C-D being joined at the hip while Iginla was playing out of position, it was hinted at by Josh Yohe that Sid had some input on that situation. When they desperately needed some kind of jolt against Boston, Byslma shook up every other line except that one.

Then you had Sid in multiple interviews come out and say that he prefers to play with those guys. Some said he was just answering the question, but usually guys will give a non-answer to those questions so to me that was noteworthy.

There's not zero evidence to the idea that Sid could exercise "soft power" over the coach to get the line-mates he wants. Maybe there's not incredibly strong evidence, but there's not zero reason to think it. And it makes sense that a franchise player who happens to be good friends with the owner is more powerful than any coach. Doesn't mean that he's running rampant with his power, but he has that power for sure.

that would be fine if sid's opinion only mattered on decisions were the two options were roughly equal.

but that's not the case with dupuis as his winger. it's clear to pretty much everyone that sid should have played with iggy last year, and its becoming clear that bennett should play with sid this season. these are pretty slam dunk decisions that are being screwed up because of what sid wants. i dont really blame sid, the coach and management should be willing to make the tough decisions.

 

[Dupree13]

It's not a question of Bylsma being more worried about keeping his star comfortable than the betterment of the team. That view still assumes that Bylsma is the one who is ultimately in charge. This theory assumes that isn't the case, and (if you buy into this theory) the problem is organizational rather than falling at Bylsma's feet.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I am baffled at the direction this thread has gone.

And I'm with Ogrezilla all the way.

Not only that I thought this thread was locked back in July based on one of the mod posts. Not sure how it got re-opened. Maybe something to do with the recent upgrade. As it stands, maybe 1 in 3 posts since it was bumped are actually about Kunitz and his contract. Probably 1 in 4 (don't care enough to count).

Either keep this about Kunitz and his contract, or about Kunitz as a player and how he's used, or I'm locking it.

This is not a Dan Bylsma thread.


FWIW I think I'd rather have Kunitz for 3 years at his rate, than Horton for 7 at his, given his injury history.

To me the better solution would be to move Bennett to Sid's RW, move Dupuis down to the 3rd line and keep Kunitz right where he is. He's a good player to have on the team. If you want more star power on the wings you probably have to give up some experience on D and go with the kids. Simple as that.

 

[Til the End of Time]

It's not a question of Bylsma being more worried about keeping his star comfortable than the betterment of the team. That view still assumes that Bylsma is the one who is ultimately in charge. This theory assumes that isn't the case, and (if you buy into this theory) the problem is organizational rather than falling at Bylsma's feet.

i think it's easier/more pleasant to assume bylsma is just a stubborn fool than this "star-treatment" stuff extends up to shero and lemieux. but honestly it could be either one.

 

[Dupree13]

i think it's easier/more pleasant to assume bylsma is just a stubborn fool than this "star-treatment" stuff extends up to shero and lemieux. but honestly it could be either one.

In before the lock. I find the latter more plausible.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Chris Kunitz needs to step it up. There is no reason to think he won't.

 

[ColePens]

He's done this before and came out on fire. But this is his worst 5 games i've seen of all time.

 

[Gooch]

He's done this before and came out on fire. But this is his worst 5 games i've seen of all time.

Both these guys are signed at an age where they're going to start to decline, and decline hard. The likelihood of him performing well might be short term but from the beginning this deal was an albatross in the making.

As for the other points, it's the person's name at the top that matters. Shero is directly responsible for the performance of the team. It was him that decided to not only re-sign these guys but lock them up for 4 years. He fully intends on them playing where they are and at their cap hit they'll basically have to be in a top 6 roll.

Shero also spent a lot to grab guys that essentially were used for bottom 6 duties, pushing out players that were more suited for those roles, essentially making the team worse. We can knit pick about bylsma but Shero extended him and seems to fully approve of the way he runs things. He keeps giving him his toys back and the anger needs to be directed in the proper place.

 

[JTG]

Pssst, dude! Just like he could have taken a different deal from Boston if they had approached him, he could have taken a different deal from the Pens. None of us can ever know, I am simply pointing to first the fallacy that there were no other/better options in free agency and secondly that he was 'never signing with Pittsburgh because he wanted a small market'. These are just trivial arguments and now it is then on to moving to a new goal post. Horton at 5.3 million is a discount that justified the 7 year deal, not least because of his age and recent performances where it matters. 36 points in 43 playoff games matter.
7 years? Yeah, a tad long, but it is hardly a cap killer with where it is supposed/likely to be at in just 5 years.



Sid will never ever publicly say that there is a team mate he does not want to play with, and you know that. It is also highly unlikely he said "I don't want to play with Jarome Iginla". Again, never mind what he wants or does not want, it is up to the coach to make the right decisions. My final point on that is simply to ask you if you think Crosby will throw a hissy fit about Dupuis NOT being there? He will do so no more than he did when Armstrong was traded, and no more than Geno did when Gonchar and Talbot were not extended. These guys are pros who want to win.



Yeah, it is what it is, and we don't have to obsess about it all the time, but we also don't need to make up elaborate reasons to suggest that Shero's decision to extend Duper was not questionable.

I'll just discuss the last point because if I'm moving the goal posts, so are you. Not every player wants to sign in Pittsburgh, and I have already expressed why it probably wasn't the best idea to extend a big deal to Horton. Shero would probably give him 3-5 years not at the money he was looking for. Why take that when Columbus gave him years and money? As much as you think I'm making things up, so are you.

Shero should have extended Dupuis. Dupuis is a good hockey player and he can help this team win. Period. How he is used is up to the coach, and over the last 2 years, Dupuis has done nothing to suggest that he isn't a top 6 winger. Sure, he's way more industrial than people here like, but he has produced. Not re-siging him would have been stupid, IMO as he can fill any role given on this team.

Sid has spoken numerous times about how he, Kunitz, and Dupuis have great chemistry and they feed off one another, and that over the years has been evident. Sid was just destroying the league last season with Kunitz and Dupuis on his wings. You can say, "oh he's just saying that because they are his teammates," but that would mean you are moving the goal posts, like you suggest me doing. So now we have to play mind reader? "Oh Sid says those things, but I really know he doesn't mean it, and he wants to play with someone else instead."

Horton has been injury prone with concussions and his shoulder. You don't give guys like that big money and term when you are a team who has their backs up against the salary cap. It's bad business. Giving wingers Shero could have got is like going back and redoing drafts and picking out the players who panned out. It's a futile exercise that will never end well.

The organization has a top 6 winger ready for duty, and the coaching staff is ****ing it up royally. That's the bud of the issue. We can go back and forth and talk about how Shero shouldn't have signed Dupuis though.


And in terms of Kunitz, this is who he is. He has these bouts and has had them numerous times in Pittsburgh. He will snap out of it. I'm sure of it. Much like Dupuis, it would be silly not to sign a guy capable of goal totals in the 20's and 50-60 points a year for under 4 million.