Confirmed with Link: Penguins sign Chris Kunitz to 3 year extension ($3.85M AAV)

[Ogrezilla]

Of course Shero can't force guys to sign here, but we don't know if guys would sign here if offered a contract.

There was no talk of Shero having any interest in either Horton or Semin, so the "Shero cannot force people to sign here" card doesn't work.

There wasn't any talk of Shero having any interest in D'Agostini or Kobasew either.

I just don't think you can hold it against a GM when he doesn't sign a specific free agent unless you know at least some of the story. Criticize things with Malone or Hossa all you want. Criticize signing Dupuis. We at least know some of what happened in those talks. But when you say we could have signed Horton and use it as a negative against Shero, I take issue with that. I remember people being upset that we didn't trade Martin for Malone at one point. Or we didn't trade for Stewart or Setoguchi or Clutterbuck or whoever.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

So, lets just sign him until he's 38? We'd have survived without Dupuis until the deadline.

The deal is longer than I personally would've done, but what I would've done means nothing. I still would have signed him. And giving a guy extra term to avoid losing him is just the way it goes sometimes. With the cap going up, I don't think his term is going to really hurt the team.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

He might have through trade, but that's not relevant. You don't let someone walk because you might be able to replace/upgrade them. Being forced to replace a guy who leaves in FA usually results in disappointment. Setting yourself up for it is just dumb.

Free agency, probably not. Horton explicitly stated that he wanted to avoid a big hockey market. He wasn't coming here no matter what. There weren't many other worthwhile options available that way.

You do know that GMs can make trades before free agency starts, right? Shero could have easily had a replacement for Duper, via trade, before FA began.

And no one knows if Horton would have signed here. The reports that he wanted a quieter market could just as easily be "I don't want to play in Boston" w/o saying that.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

, "easily", right. Making a perfect hockey trade that addresses your needs exactly is just the simplest thing in the world, isn't it?

Pittsburgh might not be as intense as Boston, but if the guy wanted to escape pressure to some degree, it's definitely not what he's looking for.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

There wasn't any talk of Shero having any interest in D'Agostini or Kobasew either.

I just don't think you can hold it against a GM when he doesn't sign a specific free agent unless you know at least some of the story. Criticize things with Malone or Hossa all you want. Criticize signing Dupuis. We at least know some of what happened in those talks. But when you say we could have signed Horton and use it as a negative against Shero, I take issue with that. I remember people being upset that we didn't trade Martin for Malone at one point. Or we didn't trade for Stewart or Setoguchi or Clutterbuck or whoever.

Those aren't notable players. Every high profile FA has dozens of rumors surrounding them of what teams are interested before FA starts.

I can say with just as much centrality that Semin/Horton would have signed w/ the Pens as you can say that they wouldn't have signed. Because neither of us knows the truth of who Shero talked to, neither can be right or wrong.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I can say with just as much centrality that Semin/Horton would have signed w/ the Pens as you can say that they wouldn't have signed. Because neither of us knows the truth of who Shero talked to, neither can be right or wrong.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

, "easily", right. Making a perfect hockey trade that addresses your needs exactly is just the simplest thing in the world, isn't it?

Pittsburgh might not be as intense as Boston, but if the guy wanted to escape pressure to some degree, it's definitely not what he's looking for.

I never said "perfect" or "exactly".

Shero could have def gotten Seto for a combo of those assets (because we know what Seto got). He may not be the "perfect" player or "exactly" fit our system, but he would have been an upgrade on four years of Duper and given Shero options next summer when the cap goes up and FAs are more reasonably priced.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Let's use your logic, though: we don't know who Shero talked to, so he may well have offered some combination of those pieces to Minnesota and they declined all of them. I can say this with "centrality". This isn't a video game where you keep adding players/picks to the trade until the combined value bars are high enough to pry your chosen asset from the other team.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

You laugh at me here , yet extensively post on how you think Stew "probably" wasn't available in the other thread?

I know the difference, but you don't seem to understand that Chris Stewart was probably never available for any kind of trade anywhere other than your mind. It's beyond cheap and dishonest to constantly say Shero should have traded for Stewart when in all likelihood no one could have traded for him. Do you really not think the Blues got all sorts of legitimate "hockey trade" proposals for Stewart at the time? And who cares if you think something based around Orpik might've worked? That's about as relevant to the situation as what I ate for breakfast this morning.

So saying that no one knows if these players were available/would sign is laughable but this post and just something in my mind, which is bases in your own assumptions, is not laughable or just in your mind?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Those aren't notable players. Every high profile FA has dozens of rumors surrounding them of what teams are interested before FA starts.

I can say with just as much centrality that Semin/Horton would have signed w/ the Pens as you can say that they wouldn't have signed. Because neither of us knows the truth of who Shero talked to, neither can be right or wrong.

So neither of us should use those situations as evidence for or against Shero or for anything else really. And neither of us should use those guys as examples of what we could have done instead of signing who we signed. Agreed.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

Let's use your logic, though: we don't know who Shero talked to, so he may well have offered some combination of those pieces to Minnesota and they declined all of them. I can say this with "centrality". This isn't a video game where you keep adding players/picks to the trade until the combined value bars are high enough to pry your chosen asset from the other team.

Minnesota traded Seto inside their divison, so I think the Pens would have had the upper hand on that one, but "we don't know" what might have been discussed in a possible trade call.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

It's much, much, much more reasonable to infer that Stewart wasn't available considering it was well known that the Blues liked him a lot and he ultimately wasn't traded at all (despite the fact that a player of his caliber and upside would have attract many very nice offers), and to qualify that with "probably" to indicate that this is speculation, than to suggest repeatedly that he might have been available because he was a healthy scratch at times, and use your own fabrication to criticize one of the 29 GMs who didn't trade for him.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Let's use your logic, though: we don't know who Shero talked to, so he may well have offered some combination of those pieces to Minnesota and they declined all of them. I can say this with "centrality". This isn't a video game where you keep adding players/picks to the trade until the combined value bars are high enough to pry your chosen asset from the other team.

That's not using logic, because we know what Seto went for and what Shero had available to trade.

Unless you think it's logical that MIN would have rather have WPGs 2nd than; Morrow, Nisky, or two 2nd rounders.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Minnesota traded Seto inside their divison, so I think the Pens would have had the upper hand on that one, but "we don't know" what might have been discussed in a possible trade call.

Yes, but they traded him for a pick that stands a good chance of being in the neighborhood of 15-20 (possibly even more) higher than what the Penguins could offer.

Also Setoguchi isn't a guy who is so dangerous you avoid trading him within your division if possible.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Minnesota traded Seto inside their divison, so I think the Pens would have had the upper hand on that one, but "we don't know" what might have been discussed in a possible trade call.

If they didn't want Niskanen, did we really have the means to make that trade? Its perfectly reasonable to think that they didn't want him even if we are playing the what-if game with the trade. We didn't have a 2nd rounder, even if we did it would have been less valuable than the 2nd rounder they got for him, and they aren't in a much better cap situation than we are.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

That's not using logic, because we know what Seto went for and what Shero had available to trade.

Unless you think it's logical that MIN would have rather have WPGs 2nd than; Morrow, Nisky, or two 2nd rounders.

The point was your logic is dumb. We never find out about 99% of the conversations between GMs, so for all we know, at the deadline Shero called Minnesota and offered Niskanen or Morrow and a pick for Setoguchi, but got turned down. Fast forward to July and a pending cap crunch for the Wild and he gets moved in what's mostly a salary dump.

But we can probably assume Setoguchi wasn't available at the deadline since Minnesota was hunting for a playoff spot. July rolls around and a Winnipeg second round pick is more valuable to Minnesota than any of the Penguins' assets (again, the most important thing for the Wild at that point is cap space, especially with Heatley injured and ineligible for a buyout), possibly short of Morrow.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That's not using logic, because we know what Seto went for and what Shero had available to trade.

Unless you think it's logical that MIN would have rather have WPGs 2nd than; Morrow, Nisky, or two 2nd rounders.

Morrow and the 2nd rounders were already traded. I get your point and obviously when a rental doesn't work it makes it look like a worse trade than they already are. But the fact remains that they were already traded by the time Setoguchi was traded.

And I think its perfectly reasonable to assume that they would rather the 2nd than Niskanen.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

The point was your logic is dumb. We never find out about 99% of the conversations between GMs, so for all we know, at the deadline Shero called Minnesota and offered Niskanen or Morrow and a pick for Setoguchi, but got turned down. Fast forward to July and a pending cap crunch for the Wild and he gets moved in what's mostly a salary dump.

But we can probably assume Setoguchi wasn't available at the deadline since Minnesota was hunting for a playoff spot. July rolls around and a Winnipeg second round pick is more valuable to Minnesota than any of the Penguins' assets (again, the most important thing for the Wild at that point is cap space, especially with Heatley injured and ineligible for a buyout), possibly short of Morrow.

lol, ok. My logic is dumb and you're logic is smart. Got it.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I mean, let's look at these assets from the Wild's perspective:
2013 2nd round pick - Penguins pick wound up at 58. For comparison, the Jets picked at 43.
2014 2nd round pick - A Jets pick is practically guaranteed to be higher than a Penguins pick, possibly as much as 20 spots.
Tyler Kennedy - Plays the same position as Setoguchi, would have yielded $1 million or less in cap savings.
Joe Morrow - Might have legitimately interested them.
Matt Niskanen - Only $700,000 in cap savings.

As of today, the Wild are less than $1 million beneath the cap. They also had to buyout Tom Gilbert and trade Clutterbuck before signing Cooke and Ballard. Cap space was likely the biggest takeaway from the trade for them.

 

[Til the End of Time]

the point isn't setoguchi or horton specifically. the point is shero has failed for many years to find crosby a legit winger. its a shame. and the one time he did likely acquire such a player (iggy) the coach was too stupid to play them together, who ultimately the gm is responsible for.

maybe there weren't good deals available this offseason, but i refuse to believe there have not been adequate upgrades out there in the past 4 years.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Morrow and the 2nd rounders were already traded. I get your point and obviously when a rental doesn't work it makes it look like a worse trade than they already are. But the fact remains that they were already traded by the time Setoguchi was traded.

And I think its perfectly reasonable to assume that they would rather the 2nd than Niskanen.

It's not that the rental didn't work, it's that they were clearly bad trades when they were made and the POs only proved that. That's why I didn't include what Shero gave up for Iggy, because that was a good trade and I'd do that deal again 10 times out of 10.

My point is that Shero chose to blow Morrow and two 2nds on old slow players that we all knew wouldn't help them in the POs, which not only didn't work out but left him with no assets to improve the top 6 this summer.

And like TTEOT said, it isn't necessarily about Seto specifically. There were/are a number of assets that Shero could have moved/signed that would have been a better fit than Dupuis on Sid's wing till he's 30.

 

[Ogrezilla]

the point isn't setoguchi or horton specifically. the point is shero has failed for many years to find crosby a legit winger. its a shame. and the one time he did likely acquire such a player (iggy) the coach was too stupid to play them together, who ultimately the gm is responsible for.

maybe there weren't good deals available this offseason, but i refuse to believe there have not been adequate upgrades out there in the past 4 years.

Chris Kunitz, James Neal, Beau Bennett and Jussi Jokinen are all legit wingers for Sid. That's 4 legit top 6 wings.

Where Shero has messed up is letting the coach continue to screw it up.

 

[JTG]

I am baffled at the direction this thread has gone.

And I'm with Ogrezilla all the way.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Chris Kunitz, James Neal, Beau Bennett and Jussi Jokinen are all legit wingers for Sid. That's 4 legit top 6 wings.

Where Shero has messed up is letting the coach continue to screw it up.

Which brings me back to my point from earlier; if he's not gonna get rid of the coach, he needs to get rid of the player that is messing up the top 6.

Like I said, it's like Moneyball where Billy Beane traded Carlos Peña to force Art Howe to play Scott Hatteberg.

 

[JTG]

Nathan Horton has had concussion issues like Sid and needed shoulder surgery to boot. That's exactly who I want to invest 7 years and 5.3 million into. A shooter with a bum shoulder.