Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread XVI: Marching to the TDL Edition

[Pens x]

They should try Zucker with Sid to increase the guy’s trade value at the very least. But what can you expect from a coach that buries young guys like Z for established vet turds. Roster decisions aren’t his strongest attribute.

 

[ronduguayshair]

We see an ongoing theme. Posters here not understanding depth. In a covid season on top of that.

Working on understanding depth. Then we'll move on to defensive responsibility.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think Zucker and futures for Eberle makes sense because Eberle is solely a RWer. If I'm spending that kind of capital, I want to get a LWer, not a RWer. You could argue that they'll also need a RWer when Rust walks after the year, but I'd rather not make an addition on a potential need instead of an addition based on a known need.

In addition, what I've seen from O'Connor and Zohorna makes me pretty content with what they have going into next year with their bottom-6. If they keep Carter and Heinen and run with those two, O'Connor, Zohorna, Blueger and McGinn as their bottom-6, I don't have a ton of worries. I'd probably advocate for Zohorna-Carter-Heinen and O'Connor-Blueger-McGinn as the bottom-6 lines, but you have some flexibility there.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I don't think Zucker and futures for Eberle makes sense because Eberle is solely a RWer. If I'm spending that kind of capital, I want to get a LWer, not a RWer. You could argue that they'll also need a RWer when Rust walks after the year, but I'd rather not make an addition on a potential need instead of an addition based on a known need.

Yeah, I'd agree here. That'd be more of a move you make after the UFA period opens and Rust leaves/your plan Bs don't work out.

 

[Victor Z]

In addition, what I've seen from O'Connor and Zohorna makes me pretty content with what they have going into next year with their bottom-6.

That's a good plan, if this coach will actually get on board with it. Sadly, a more likely scenario has Sully running to Hextall in the offseason and desperately begging him to find out if Carter Rowney or Greg McKegg are available.

Edit: Why not? One of those guys may be the next Evan Rodrigues!

 

[HandshakeLine]

Honestly, I think ZAR should be gone at the deadline no matter what he brings statistically to the table, simply because he's a UFA that's going to be out of here come the first day of free agency anyway. Saving 1.5 million is an additional bonus.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's a good plan, if this coach will actually get on board with it. Sadly, a more likely scenario has Sully running to Hextall in the offseason and desperately begging him to find out if Carter Rowney or Greg McKegg are available.

Edit: Why not? One of those guys may be the next Evan Rodrigues!

What makes you think he wouldn't play O'Connor in that kind of role?

Zohorna may be questionable, but O'Connor as a ZAR replacement is a pretty safe prediction to make.

 

[Victor Z]

What makes you think he wouldn't play O'Connor in that kind of role?

Zohorna may be questionable, but O'Connor as a ZAR replacement is a pretty safe prediction to make.

I hope he DOES play DOC in a role that's suitable to further his development, but there's every reason to believe that the Penguins will always be looking for "proven" players like Dom Simon ("You're all overreacting, he was only re-acquired to play at WBS!"), Brian Boyle, Mark Jankowski, etc.

If the Penguins really do resign Carter, Rust, Letang and Malkin they're likely to have the perfect opportunity to try to get some younger, hungrier players into the lineup because the money (hopefully) won't be there to sign too many retreads.

 

[SEALBound]

I really like what we've seen from Zohorna. To the point that, I'm not sure I give ZAR a roster spot until Big Z faulters...

And with that, I see ZERO reason to resign ZAR when you have Big Z and DOC.

 

[pistolpete11]

I don't think Zucker and futures for Eberle makes sense because Eberle is solely a RWer. If I'm spending that kind of capital, I want to get a LWer, not a RWer. You could argue that they'll also need a RWer when Rust walks after the year, but I'd rather not make an addition on a potential need instead of an addition based on a known need.

In addition, what I've seen from O'Connor and Zohorna makes me pretty content with what they have going into next year with their bottom-6. If they keep Carter and Heinen and run with those two, O'Connor, Zohorna, Blueger and McGinn as their bottom-6, I don't have a ton of worries. I'd probably advocate for Zohorna-Carter-Heinen and O'Connor-Blueger-McGinn as the bottom-6 lines, but you have some flexibility there.

O'Connor's pointless streak is up to 17 games now. I'm not sure we should be relying on him to take a spot next year, especially if we are also relying on Zohorna to take a spot as well, especially especially given this team's inability to stay healthy and need for bottom 6 wingers to step up in more prominent roles.

I think you need a reasonably established top 9 and leave a spot on L4 for DOC, Zohorna, Bjorkqvist, etc. to compete for in camp and hope someone takes a step forward. If that means signing more E-Rod or Heinen types to a little bit more money, so be it.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, I'm not so sure DOC's much better than Lafferty in the sense that he's some unpolished gem. He's a whole hell of a lot smarter, which puts him above Lafferty, but he doesn't seem like anything more than a borderline NHL-caliber guy just yet. Same with Zoho.

 

[SEALBound]

O'Connor's pointless streak is up to 17 games now. I'm not sure we should be relying on him to take a spot next year, especially if we are also relying on Zohorna to take a spot as well, especially especially given this team's inability to stay healthy and need for bottom 6 wingers to step up in more prominent roles.

I think you need a reasonably established top 9 and leave a spot on L4 for DOC, Zohorna, Bjorkqvist, etc. to compete for in camp and hope someone takes a step forward. If that means signing more E-Rod or Heinen types to a little bit more money, so be it.

I still believe that DOC will be a better producer and have a bigger impact when given a more prominent role in the mid-6 / top-6 role. You give him Zucker/Kappy/Heinen/Rust/Jake/etc, I think the points come. I would say "17 game pointless streak as a bottom 6 / 4th liner".

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah, I'm not so sure DOC's much better than Lafferty in the sense that he's some unpolished gem. He's a whole hell of a lot smarter, which puts him above Lafferty, but he doesn't seem like anything more than a borderline NHL-caliber guy just yet. Same with Zoho.

Okay, lets say for the sake of argument that DOC = Lafferty (which I don't think will end up being true) but to Emp's point, if we need to say cap for raises, having DOC in the system as a 4C is very acceptable.

So worst case, there's a positive outlook on the guy.

 

[Empoleon8771]

O'Connor's pointless streak is up to 17 games now. I'm not sure we should be relying on him to take a spot next year, especially if we are also relying on Zohorna to take a spot as well, especially especially given this team's inability to stay healthy and need for bottom 6 wingers to step up in more prominent roles.

I think you need a reasonably established top 9 and leave a spot on L4 for DOC, Zohorna, Bjorkqvist, etc. to compete for in camp and hope someone takes a step forward. If that means signing more E-Rod or Heinen types to a little bit more money, so be it.

We're talking about him as a 12th forward or defensive 4th line role. Yes, I'd rather O'Connor be producing more, but he's playing effective hockey despite his production.

In a cap world, you're going to have to make sacrifices in some spots. Basically swapping out ZAR for O'Connor and Zucker for Zohorna seems like relatively minor sacrifices. Because that's all that is changing in my bottom-6.

I hope he DOES play DOC in a role that's suitable to further his development, but there's every reason to believe that the Penguins will always be looking for "proven" players like Dom Simon ("You're all overreacting, he was only re-acquired to play at WBS!"), Brian Boyle, Mark Jankowski, etc.

If the Penguins really do resign Carter, Rust, Letang and Malkin they're likely to have the perfect opportunity to try to get some younger, hungrier players into the lineup because the money (hopefully) won't be there to sign too many retreads.

Sounds like you're just bitching for the sake of bitching.

Simon and Boyle were brought in as depth and pretty much neither of them have played above the 4th line this year. They're both literally averaging 10 minutes a night on the year while being effectively even players. They're warm bodies that have played because the Penguins have been injured to all hell this year.

O'Connor has effectively been a regular this year, so he'll definitely be a regular next year. Zohorna was only not a regular to start this year because he stunk in camp due to an illness and needed time to get his conditioning up.

 

[pistolpete11]

I still believe that DOC will be a better producer and have a bigger impact when given a more prominent role in the mid-6 / top-6 role. You give him Zucker/Kappy/Heinen/Rust/Jake/etc, I think the points come. I would say "17 game pointless streak as a bottom 6 / 4th liner".

17 games is a loooooong time. Even for a 4th liner. He can't even luck into a secondary assist? It's not that hard. Just ask Sid

It's major red flag to me and if he wasn't a shiny new toy this year, this board would up in arms about him playing as much as he does.

I'm not completely writing him off yet. He's not 'bad', and especially with his size, I would love for things to start clicking. I just don't think we should be penciling him into the lineup for next year. He's in a "come to camp and earn a spot" position for me unless things drastically change the rest of this year.

 

[pistolpete11]

We're talking about him as a 12th forward or defensive 4th line role. Yes, I'd rather O'Connor be producing more, but he's playing effective hockey despite his production.

In a cap world, you're going to have to make sacrifices in some spots. Basically swapping out ZAR for O'Connor and Zucker for Zohorna seems like relatively minor sacrifices. Because that's all that is changing in my bottom-6.

He's getting 66% O-zone starts.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think DOC's been a fine ZAR replacement, but I don't think the bar's very high to replace what ZAR brings to the table--despite the crowing from the heatmappers and the analytics gurus. It's not hard to find a replacement for a guy who doesn't produce at all offensively, but also isn't a detriment. DOC seems like that's all he is at the moment. Room to grow, of course, but I don't really notice much of anything in the way of "Huh, maybe there's something there afterall" quite yet.

 

[SEALBound]

He's getting 66% O-zone starts.

So?

 

[Peat]

I wouldn't hate going into next year with two open spots for whichever kid/fringe player steals them - front runners DOC and Zohorna, but Angello would have a shot, ditto Bjork and Hallander, and Simon would have a very good shot and why wouldn't you, maybe Bellerive, maybe Poulin, etc.etc. - but if we can get the extra money to reduce it to one I think I'd prefer that. Although I have to say, having glanced at next year's FAs, I'm not spotting obvious Heinen/ERod guys who'll just be left on the side of the curb again.

And that'll change if they have strong end of years but it is a fair point they've not inked their name onto the team yet. Maybe next year.

 

[pistolpete11]

So?

So I don't think guys being used in defense roles start 66% of the time in the offensive zone?

 

[Daeni10]

So?

66% OZ starts is not a defensive role.

I am fine with letting ZAR go because of cap reasons next season, but this year he should absolutely not be traded because he is a really good player for the role he is playing with us

 

[pistolpete11]

I think DOC's been a fine ZAR replacement, but I don't think the bar's very high to replace what ZAR brings to the table--despite the crowing from the heatmappers and the analytics gurus. It's not hard to find a replacement for a guy who doesn't produce at all offensively, but also isn't a detriment. DOC seems like that's all he is at the moment. Room to grow, of course, but I don't really notice much of anything in the way of "Huh, maybe there's something there afterall" quite yet.

Yeah, if ZAR is the standard, then DOC has been fine. But I don't know. I'd just prefer a guy who...ya know...wouldn't be a total surprise to see score a goal in the playoffs. To that point, I've seen more from Zohorna, but that could also be the adrenaline spike from getting called back up to the NHL.

Also, DOC isn't that cheap. Another $75k landed E-Rod. Another $175k landed Heinen. I'd rather take another shot at a guy like that who has shown something in the NHL before just handing over a spot to DOC.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, if ZAR is the standard, then DOC has been fine. But I don't know. I'd just prefer a guy who...ya know...wouldn't be a total surprise to see score a goal in the playoffs. To that point, I've seen more from Zohorna, but that could also be the adrenaline spike from getting called back up to the NHL.

Also, DOC isn't that cheap. Another $75k landed E-Rod. Another $175k landed Heinen. I'd rather take another shot at a guy like that who has shown something in the NHL before just handing over a spot to DOC.

Truth be told I can't really say I give a f*** about either DOC or ZAR, or even Zoho really. It's splitting hairs at that point imo. They're all bottom-6, maybe 4th liners at this juncture. Sully's gonna defer to ZAR though, like 101 times out of 100.

 

[SEALBound]

So I don't think guys being used in defense roles start 66% of the time in the offensive zone?

Literally, says who? What % does it literally go from "offensive role" to "defensive role"?

To get ahead of it, if it's 50%? I mean, why, literally why? What does an arbitrary number based on a confluence of events that DOC has little control over define his role between "offensive" and "defensive"?

It's like the faceoffs. 50%+ is good and <50% is bad, right? Well if the center loses several mid-game neutral zone faceoffs that have little consequence but wins the offensive zone faceoff late in the 3rd to establish zone time, I don't give a shit what the numbers say.

 

[Peat]

Yeah, if ZAR is the standard, then DOC has been fine. But I don't know. I'd just prefer a guy who...ya know...wouldn't be a total surprise to see score a goal in the playoffs. To that point, I've seen more from Zohorna, but that could also be the adrenaline spike from getting called back up to the NHL.

Also, DOC isn't that cheap. Another $75k landed E-Rod. Another $175k landed Heinen. I'd rather take another shot at a guy like that who has shown something in the NHL before just handing over a spot to DOC.

Likelihood is that DOC's cap hit gets lower over the summer with him getting a one way deal in return like Angello's did.

And, yeah, maybe he's quiet and never rises again... or maybe it's just a weird dry spell and it'll be fine. His numbers don't scream guy who can't score, they just scream streaky. Given he's shown he can beat NHL goalies, I wouldn't be surprised if it was dry spell.