Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Empoleon8771]

Going to leave this here, because I like to see people froth at the mouth...



In all seriousness, I think a major issue facing the Penguins is the young guys aren't that good. Once DOC started to figure it out a bit, he got a consistent spot in the lineup. But he hasn't played like anything other than a third or fourth liner.

I like POJ. His speed and his offensive potential are intriguing. But there is no question he hit a wall and possibly should have been a healthy scratch had the Pens been healthy on defense.

Nylander is a poor man's Danton Heinen.

I'm not wowed by anyone in WBS, including Puustinen. The only prospects down there that intrigue me are Poulin, who has a long way to go to get his feet under him, and Blomqvist, who will need a full season in net to show where he is.

If the Penguins had the 2023 equivalents of Rust, Guentzel, even Kuhnhackl and Wilson, and Sullivan wasn't playing them, I'd have an issue. These guys can't hold those guys' jockstraps.

This is such a crock of shit from Rossi that is solely trying to deflect blame from Sullivan for running the same team every game.

Sullivan had the option to play POJ or Kulikov. He picked Kulikov. Sullivan had the option to play O'Connor or Archibald. He picked Archibald. Sullivan had the option to play Smith or Ruhwedel. He picked Ruhwedel.

Spare me that shit, Rossi. It's so easy to see through that nonsense.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Not buying Robs take here at all. Look how long Sully took to trust Doc and how quick he was to sit POJ when we acquired Kulikov.

Nonsense imo

How much of that with DOC had to do with the guys in front of him on the roster early and the fact he didn't have to clear waivers?

After the first of the year, he was pretty much a fixture in the lineup, even if his minutes fluctuated. He was allowed to play through scoring slumps or dips in play.

I was disappointed POJ was taken out immediately once Kulikov joined, but seeing how POJ played in the final quarter of the season, maybe it was the right idea. He had one goal and five assists in his final 27 games after having four and 12 in his first 48. He was also shakier defensively.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It’s the best kind of crock of shit because we actually f***ed up the cap a lot this year, so there’s a grain of truth.

 

[Pancakes]

What young players should Sullivan have played but didn’t?

Took too long to trust Poj and Doc imo

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Smith looked pretty decent. Certainly better than Dumoulin.

And that might have come down to contractual issues out of Sullivan's hands.

He can't force Hextall to recall Smith and jettison one of the vets.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And that might have come down to contractual issues out of Sullivan's hands.

He can't force Hextall to recall Smith and jettison one of the vets.

Absolute bullshit. He specifically scratched Smith for Ruhwedel when both were on the roster.

 

[Pancakes]

How much of that with DOC had to do with the guys in front of him on the roster early and the fact he didn't have to clear waivers?

After the first of the year, he was pretty much a fixture in the lineup, even if his minutes fluctuated. He was allowed to play through scoring slumps or dips in play.

I was disappointed POJ was taken out immediately once Kulikov joined, but seeing how POJ played in the final quarter of the season, maybe it was the right idea. He had one goal and five assists in his final 27 games after having four and 12 in his first 48. He was also shakier defensively.

Some but not all imo. But yes Hextall deserves some blame for not making more room for Doc.

 

[Pens x]

And that might have come down to contractual issues out of Sullivan's hands.

He can't force Hextall to recall Smith and jettison one of the vets.

I’m at a loss for words for anyone defending Mike Sullivan in 2023. It’s been an eternity since he was effective.

It’s utterly amazing.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

This is such a crock of shit from Rossi that is solely trying to deflect blame from Sullivan for running the same team every game.

Sullivan had the option to play POJ or Kulikov. He picked Kulikov. Sullivan had the option to play O'Connor or Archibald. He picked Archibald. Sullivan had the option to play Smith or Ruhwedel. He picked Ruhwedel.

Spare me that shit, Rossi. It's so easy to see through that nonsense.

I'll give you the POJ/Kulikov choice. Archibald was solid for $900K. Once injuries cleared a path for DOC in January, he was in the lineup pretty much every night. Sullivan also played Poehling a lot when he was healthy.

And did he really have an option with Smith/Ruhwedel? Smith was already playing on his off side.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'll give you the POJ/Kulikov choice. Archibald was solid for $900K. Once injuries cleared a path for DOC in January, he was in the lineup pretty much every night. Sullivan also played Poehling a lot when he was healthy.

And did he really have an option with Smith/Ruhwedel? Smith was already playing on his off side.

Smith was performing amazingly well on RD. These were their lines he was on when he was playing RD with Dumoulin:



Next game, Petry was healthy so Smith was scratched:



He explicitly had the option to play Smith, who was thriving on RD. He instead decided to play Ruhwedel and Friedman instead. He completely had the ability to just scratch Friedman, insert Petry into Friedman's spot and keep Dumoulin-Smith together. He explicitly decided to not do that.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't know that Sully hates younger players as much as this place wants to think. This team just has no f***ing young players worth a damn outside of maybe Puustinen (long shot) and Ty Smith.

Hextall kept the bottom-6 and blueline jam packed full of veteran colostomy bags, and Sullivan wouldn't dare think of demoting someone like Rust to the 3rd, putting Rakell on the 1st line, and putting someone like Puustinen with Geno. I think DOC is firmly in the bottom-6 club, and Poehling's shown flashes here and there of being decent but he's also gone for long stretches being a complete non-factor. I think you could run Poehling as 3C and DOC as 4C and be no worse than this team was all year--and save a chunk of money.

Sullivan's not exactly pushing somebody like Cole Caufield to the press box in favor of Heinen. This team has no great options for young guys. That being said, they're comfortable icing a roster that's lackluster as f***, so might as well do it on the cheap and actually see what you have in the WBS kids this fall. They won't, but it'd be nice.

This is such a crock of shit from Rossi that is solely trying to deflect blame from Sullivan for running the same team every game.

Sullivan had the option to play POJ or Kulikov. He picked Kulikov. Sullivan had the option to play O'Connor or Archibald. He picked Archibald. Sullivan had the option to play Smith or Ruhwedel. He picked Ruhwedel.

Spare me that shit, Rossi. It's so easy to see through that nonsense.

POJ sucked for the last half of the season, to be fair. I'd have still played him over Kulikov, who never should've been acquired, but POJ dropped off real hard as the season went on.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Some but not all imo. But yes Hextall deserves some blame for not making more room for Doc.

I think the reality is that while Sullivan might have been hesitant to play guys out of position or on their off sides, he had no issue playing young guys in a suitable role and maybe would have played more had they not been blocked.

Hextall stuffed the roster. He blocked guys like Ty Smith from playing their natural position. He blocked DOC from a full-time role.

And the other factor is the rest of the prospects just aren't that good.

 

[Empoleon8771]

POJ sucked for the last half of the season, to be fair. I'd have still played him over Kulikov, who never should've been acquired, but POJ dropped off real hard as the season went on.

I mean I agree with you, but that doesn't change that the fact that he did it.

You can't seriously expect me to believe the "Sullivan actually wanted to play young guys!" claim when he has shown to absolutely not do that anytime in recent memory.

Rossi saying that is just trying to gaslight fans into thinking they're wrong about how Sullivan hasn't scratched a veteran for a young player in like 4 years. I wouldn't have any problem if Rossi said something like "Sullivan plays who he thinks will give him the best chance to win", but trying to say that Sullivan actually wanted to play young players is just pure gaslighting.

 

[Jacob]

He did play Smith a lot. 20 minutes. So maybe he wanted him more and earlier. Could be he wanted Smith over POJ from day 1 too. Still I didn’t think he looked that great in his call-up. And a ton of those minutes were on the PP only because Petry and Letang were out.

I haven’t pencilled Smith into any lineup projections for next year. He’s like one of our few trade chips, too.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Smith was performing amazingly well on RD. These were their lines he was on when he was playing RD with Dumoulin:



Next game, Petry was healthy so Smith was scratched:



He explicitly had the option to play Smith, who was thriving on RD. He instead decided to play Ruhwedel and Friedman instead. He completely had the ability to just scratch Friedman, insert Petry into Friedman's spot and keep Dumoulin-Smith together. He explicitly decided to not do that.

Friedman has far more experience playing RD than Smith and with Rutta and Letang both out of the lineup, there may have been a desire to have someone a little more defensively responsible than Smith, who is still refining his work in his own zone.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Friedman has far more experience playing RD than Smith and with Rutta and Letang both out of the lineup, there may have been a desire to have someone a little more defensively responsible than Smith, who is still refining his work in his own zone.

You posted a tweet from Rossi that said "Sullivan would have liked to have young players on the roster", and now you're making excuses for him for why he wasn't playing the young players he had on the roster.

Look dude, I'm not nearly as anti-Sullivan as most other people here, but it's so obvious you just refuse to criticize him for anything. Rossi trying to gaslight fans into thinking something that is so clearly not true is ridiculous, and it's ridiculous to support.

 

[Empoleon8771]

By the way, I've argued against the idea that Sullivan is anti-youth on here in the past. I still don't think that's the case, even with what I've said on this page. I think Sullivan just solely makes his lineups based on what he think will give the team the best chance to win. I don't think he has any bias for or against young players. He definitely has much more of a bias for play style than player age.

But for Rossi to come in and seriously try to argue that he was actually pro-young players, but it was big bad Hextall that didn't give him any? It's so obvious to see what that is. Rossi is a well established turd with a massive bias for Sullivan and against Hextall. He's trying to throw more pot shots at Hextall and deflect any criticism away from Sullivan. It's so obviously untrue and it's just gaslighting fans into believing something that anyone reasonably can say is 100% bullshit.

I want Sullivan fired, but I try to be as reasonable and unbiased as I can with my evaluation of him. That usually causes me to argue against both sides, both the people who think he sucks and the people who think he's great. Rossi trying to argue that Sullivan is actually pro-youth but Hextall didn't give him young players is so obviously bullshit meant to prop up Sullivan that it's impossible for me to not argue against it.

 

[Pancakes]

I think it can be both true that Hextall didn't give Sullivan enough youthful options due to cap issues and that Sullivan in general chose vets over youth for far too long. Sullivan eventually grew to trust Doc and Poj a lot more, but it took too long and especially so given how bad Carter etc were for most of the year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think it can be both true that Hextall didn't give Sullivan enough youthful options due to cap issues and that Sullivan in general chose vets over youth for far too long. Sullivan eventually grew to trust Doc and Poj a lot more, but it took too long and especially so given how bad Carter etc were for most of the year.

I think this is totally spot on. Neither side is innocent here, Hextall bungled the cap situation and Sullivan has shown to not trust young players.

My issue is with Rossi trying to argue that Sullivan is pro-young player and it was just Hextall who didn't give him that.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Posting a DK (either one), Madden or Rossi tweet should be an instant 24hr ban with no option to appeal.

I'm interested to see what guys like Puustinen or Svejkovsky bring to camp/pre-season. I'd be fine running a whole bunch of WBS dudes to save cash and see what they've got. This team's cooked anyway, might as well see if any of the prospects have any hope of becoming NHLers.

I hope they let all of Zucker, Dumo and Jarry walk. I imagine they're gonna try to keep Zucker around because he's a lockerroom favorite and the coach loves him, the coach thinks way too highly of Dumo so I'm sure he'll get an offer from the team, and I am almost certain Jarry is gonna be back, much to my extreme disappointment.

 

[Pancakes]

I think this is totally spot on. Neither side is innocent here, Hextall bungled the cap situation and Sullivan has shown to not trust young players.

My issue is with Rossi trying to argue that Sullivan is pro-young player and it was just Hextall who didn't give him that.

All the media is defending Sully and it is nauseating. Look for years I was more pro Sully than just about anyone here. I get it. I liked him. I still think he's a good coach.

But it feels clear he's reached his expiration date here and unless he actually learns from his mistakes this year and comes out of it better then we're making a mistake keeping him.

I think any gm we get will give him another chance though. So the best we can hope for is he reflects on where things went wrong and does better next year. I'm not optimistic on that front based on what I saw this year.

 

[Jacob]

There’s not a coach in the league that is actively pro-youth over veterans. Sullivan is probably somewhere in the middle as far as giving young guys ice time goes. If they’re good and/or fill a role they’ll usually play.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

You posted a tweet from Rossi that said "Sullivan would have liked to have young players on the roster", and now you're making excuses for him for why he wasn't playing the young players he had on the roster.

Look dude, I'm not nearly as anti-Sullivan as most other people here, but it's so obvious you just refuse to criticize him for anything. Rossi trying to gaslight fans into thinking something that is so clearly not true is ridiculous, and it's ridiculous to support.

I think the desire applied to the forwards more than the defense, but that's me trying to parse Rossi's tweet.

Did Sullivan take too long to trust DOC and POJ? Yes. He also played Carter too much, moved Rakell off Sid's line too quickly, and was far too patient with struggling special teams units.

But it's also true that Hextall handcuffed the coaches with too many one-way contracts and limited cap space.

Rossi's tweet was a bit over the top, but that's also partially why I shared it. The truth is likely somewhere in-between.

 

[LOGiK]

All the media is defending Sully and it is nauseating. Look for years I was more pro Sully than just about anyone here. I get it. I liked him. I still think he's a good coach.

But it feels clear he's reached his expiration date here and unless he actually learns from his mistakes this year and comes out of it better then we're making a mistake keeping him.

I think any gm we get will give him another chance though. So the best we can hope for is he reflects on where things went wrong and does better next year. I'm not optimistic on that front based on what I saw this year.

Example of this in 2023?

 

[wej20]

He did play Smith a lot. 20 minutes. So maybe he wanted him more and earlier. Could be he wanted Smith over POJ from day 1 too. Still I didn’t think he looked that great in his call-up. And a ton of those minutes were on the PP only because Petry and Letang were out.

I haven’t pencilled Smith into any lineup projections for next year. He’s like one of our few trade chips, too.

I'm with you on Smith, he looked ok but certainly didn't wow me. He's clearly got some decent offensive IQ, can make a pass, puck handle and he gets his shot to the net (though he's not going to overpower any goalies) but I thought he lacked another gear on his skating and he's definitely undersized.

If he had POJ's skating that I think you'd have a really nice young player on your hands.

I'd be looking to trade whichever of them have more value and then whoever is left slots onto the bottom pairing.