Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Sept.(camp/pre-season) The New Normal - The horror, the horror...

[Andy99]

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - Trading Malkin, finding centers, and free agent help

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

Janko got a PTO with the Devs.

They'll sign him and he'll score the game winner for them in the first game we play against em

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - Trading Malkin, finding centers, and free agent help

I'm still on the fence with this, I mean I love Geno and yes for sure I don't want him or Letang to get moved here but at the end of the day it's either we move them for a somewhat of a quicker rebuild down the road or it's a painful 7-8 years of being pathetic once they retire.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm still on the fence with this, I mean I love Geno and yes for sure I don't want him or Letang to get moved here but at the end of the day it's either we move them for a somewhat of a quicker rebuild down the road or it's a painful 7-8 years of being pathetic once they retire.

I'd suggest looking at the teams that sold off all their assets and attempted to rebuild in small markets.

It's easy to rebuild when you can sign a Panarin or Tavares and even then those teams aren't really doing great.

 

[Khelandros]

As soon as trading Geno pops into the conversation, you might as well look at moving Sid, cause that is when the rebuild starts. There is no way we would be competitive with just a first line with nobody down the middle behind Sid. Pens have spent 4 years looking for a 3C, how are they going to find a 2C?

 

[Peat]

Geno's trade return at this point would probably not move the needle on how quick a rebuild would go. He is probably not attracting the sort of high pick or potentially franchise altering prospects that increases the pace of a rebuild.

Not sure Letang is either.

I mean. I'm not really for trading either of them, nor do I see much point to a discussion when the team is very loudly committed to doing elsewise. But if we are going to consider it - any rebuild for this team, in terms of aiming at being long term contenders again (rather than just being 2016 Minnesota or so), is about finding 3 young talents, at least 1 at C, who are going to be in the top 50 NHL players for most of their careers. We've seen where trade prices are right now, and how they go when a player has a large amount of control over his destiny, and we know roughly where you've got to pick to have a decent chance of getting those players/how likely teams are to let go of players tracking that way. Any argument over trading the big names has to acknowledge that doing so really mightn't achieve a whole lot.

If you want to trade assets to accelerate a rebuild, you start with Guentzel.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Geno's trade return at this point would probably not move the needle on how quick a rebuild would go. He is probably not attracting the sort of high pick or potentially franchise altering prospects that increases the pace of a rebuild.

Not sure Letang is either.

I mean. I'm not really for trading either of them, nor do I see much point to a discussion when the team is very loudly committed to doing elsewise. But if we are going to consider it - any rebuild for this team, in terms of aiming at being long term contenders again (rather than just being 2016 Minnesota or so), is about finding 3 young talents, at least 1 at C, who are going to be in the top 50 NHL players for most of their careers. We've seen where trade prices are right now, and how they go when a player has a large amount of control over his destiny, and we know roughly where you've got to pick to have a decent chance of getting those players/how likely teams are to let go of players tracking that way. Any argument over trading the big names has to acknowledge that doing so really mightn't achieve a whole lot.

If you want to trade assets to accelerate a rebuild, you start with Guentzel.

This is where I keep going with all these "trade Malkin" nimrods. What, exactly, do you think Malkin is returning these days? What are you doing with all that magical cap space?

Just say you hate the guy for no good reason and be done with it. Don't pretend it's some prudent, savvy GM move. It isn't.

 

[dogthateats]

HockeyBuzz Ryan Wilson lol




Lol

 

[Gurglesons]

Geno's trade return at this point would probably not move the needle on how quick a rebuild would go. He is probably not attracting the sort of high pick or potentially franchise altering prospects that increases the pace of a rebuild.

Not sure Letang is either.

I mean. I'm not really for trading either of them, nor do I see much point to a discussion when the team is very loudly committed to doing elsewise. But if we are going to consider it - any rebuild for this team, in terms of aiming at being long term contenders again (rather than just being 2016 Minnesota or so), is about finding 3 young talents, at least 1 at C, who are going to be in the top 50 NHL players for most of their careers. We've seen where trade prices are right now, and how they go when a player has a large amount of control over his destiny, and we know roughly where you've got to pick to have a decent chance of getting those players/how likely teams are to let go of players tracking that way. Any argument over trading the big names has to acknowledge that doing so really mightn't achieve a whole lot.

If you want to trade assets to accelerate a rebuild, you start with Guentzel.

I think Letang retained would return a boatload of shit if we moved him to say Toronto or Boston.

Seeing Letang in either of those jerseys would also probably force me to kill myself. But if Letang puts up a similar season to last year and a contender can add him for under 4 million, they're probably giving us a 1st, highly regarded prospect or young player.

The issue with Malkin is his trade protection and cap hit. I can't think of a team that makes a move for him in season that is likely on his NTC.

 

[Deport Ogie]

This is where I keep going with all these "trade Malkin" nimrods. What, exactly, do you think Malkin is returning these days? What are you doing with all that magical cap space?

Just say you hate the guy for no good reason and be done with it. Don't pretend it's some prudent, savvy GM move. It isn't.

This is about 5 steps further than most of the "Trade Malkin" folks go with their thought process. I'd wager a range of 90-94% of folks that say "Trade Malkin now!', if answering honestly as to why they think that, would answer "...because Mark Madden says so."

 

[AjaxTelamon]

This is where I keep going with all these "trade Malkin" nimrods. What, exactly, do you think Malkin is returning these days? What are you doing with all that magical cap space?

Just say you hate the guy for no good reason and be done with it. Don't pretend it's some prudent, savvy GM move. It isn't.

The most prudent thing to do is let Rust and Geno play out the string this year, and see how it goes. Maybe that will get Rust to actually play the kind of hockey that wins in the playoffs. Letang is another issue, I'd re-up him if he's agree to something reasonable. If we're out of contention at the deadline, you can recoup some serious assets by selling our expiring contracts for futures. Florida might be thrilled to add Geno at the deadline, and we could always have the option of bringing him back.

In all fairness, Geno being out half the season, then taking a month to get up to speed is about the only chance we have of peak Geno in the playoffs anyways. I hope they ease Sid back in for the same reason, he can't take a full season either.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The most prudent thing to do is let Rust and Geno play out the string this year, and see how it goes. Maybe that will get Rust to actually play the kind of hockey that wins in the playoffs. Letang is another issue, I'd re-up him if he's agree to something reasonable. If we're out of contention at the deadline, you can recoup some serious assets by selling our expiring contracts for futures. Florida might be thrilled to add Geno at the deadline, and we could always have the option of bringing him back.

In all fairness, Geno being out half the season, then taking a month to get up to speed is about the only chance we have of peak Geno in the playoffs anyways. I hope they ease Sid back in for the same reason, he can't take a full season either.

I dunno. In regards to Malkin I'm just gonna have to stick to my guns... unless he actively WANTS out, I'm not at all good with shipping off a franchise legend for some magic beans at the deadline. I completely understand that a lot of fans are all like "it's a business" but to me that only applies so far.

I think you will get your wish though in that they seem to want to use this year as a holding pattern to see some things. Which I don't really agree with if we're pretending this is a Cup contender but whatever. I guess I'm past caring that much. I just want Sid, Malkin and if I had my way Letang to retire as only-Penguins at this stage. I have zero expectations for a real contending team.

 

[canadianguy77]

If they were going to go the route of trading away our stars, the time to do it was a few years ago. If we could’ve managed 4 or 5 1sts for each of Sid and Geno, and a few more with Letang, it might have made sense. Having three or four 1st round picks for half a decade certainly would’ve made the trades more palatable.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If they were going to go the route of trading away our stars, the time to do it was a few years ago. If we could’ve managed 4 or 5 1sts for each of Sid and Geno, and a few more with Letang, it might have made sense. Having three of four 1st round picks for half a decade certainly would’ve made the trades more palatable.

Right.

I dunno why so many fans are on all this, now. In my opinion there was never a good time to trade any of them but if they WERE going to it should have been years ago.

I suppose I could have seen an alternate reality before their B2B happened where the thought was "this is stagnating and it's the core's fault." It would have been the wrong conclusion but I've seen other teams do dumber things.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The idea of blowing this team up while the core still has gas in the tank is stupid IMO.

People assume the Penguins will easily be able to find their new Crosby, Malkin and Letang, while in reality they almost definitely won't. The Oilers have had like 10 top-10 picks dating back to 2010 and they got arguably the best hockey player since Mario with one of those picks, and they still don't even have the equivalent of a Crosby, Malkin and Letang. You are far more likely to become like the Oilers (needing a decade of high picks to get something even close to the old core) or like the Sabres (you basically can't recreate the old core) if you nuke the team than you are to be able to assemble a new core equal to the core they currently have.

Let the core ride it out until they retire and hope you catch lightning in a bottle in one of their remaining years. Don't spend a boatload of assets to try and win with the core and really focus on retaining/gaining futures, but still give the team a legitimate chance at contending every year. You only pull the plug on it when the team no longer has a chance at being a contender.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The idea of blowing this team up while the core still has gas in the tank is stupid IMO.

People assume the Penguins will easily be able to find their new Crosby, Malkin and Letang, while in reality they almost definitely won't. The Oilers have had like 10 top-10 picks dating back to 2010 and they got arguably the best hockey player since Mario with one of those picks, and they still don't even have the equivalent of a Crosby, Malkin and Letang. You are far more likely to become like the Oilers (needing a decade of high picks to get something even close to the old core) or like the Sabres (you basically can't recreate the old core) if you nuke the team than you are to be able to assemble a new core equal to the core they currently have.

Plus isn't the idea to suck real bad for a few years and get those lotto picks?

Say you shuffle Malkin and Letang off for a few middling firsts and a handful of decent younger roster players and some cap space. Now you still have Crosby and he isn't gonna sit around on a cap floor team with a bunch of garbage wallowing around in the bottom of the standings. So you gotta fill out the roster with an expensive free agent or three who like you mentioned almost certainly aren't going to be as good as even old Letang/Malkin. So you've basically just done all that to go nowhere and are still maybe making the first round and getting dumped while not collecting any of those super important top five picks.

Like... what is the point, here?

 

[Gurglesons]

The idea of blowing this team up while the core still has gas in the tank is stupid IMO.

People assume the Penguins will easily be able to find their new Crosby, Malkin and Letang, while in reality they almost definitely won't. The Oilers have had like 10 top-10 picks dating back to 2010 and they got arguably the best hockey player since Mario with one of those picks, and they still don't even have the equivalent of a Crosby, Malkin and Letang. You are far more likely to become like the Oilers (needing a decade of high picks to get something even close to the old core) or like the Sabres (you basically can't recreate the old core) if you nuke the team than you are to be able to assemble a new core equal to the core they currently have.

Let the core ride it out until they retire and hope you catch lightning in a bottle in one of their remaining years. Don't spend a boatload of assets to try and win with the core and really focus on retaining/gaining futures, but still give the team a legitimate chance at contending every year. You only pull the plug on it when the team no longer has a chance at being a contender.

I think moving Letang and Rust is something you entertain if we are not in the playoffs.

Malkin is a big no. Jake is a big no. Sid is a big no.

 

[Gurglesons]

Plus isn't the idea to suck real bad for a few years and get those lotto picks?

Say you shuffle Malkin and Letang off for a few middling firsts and a handful of decent younger roster players and some cap space. Now you still have Crosby and he isn't gonna sit around on a cap floor team with a bunch of garbage wallowing around in the bottom of the standings. So you gotta fill out the roster with an expensive free agent or three who like you mentioned almost certainly aren't going to be as good as even old Letang/Malkin. So you've basically just done all that to go nowhere and are still maybe making the first round and getting dumped while not collecting any of those super important top five picks.

Like... what is the point, here?

The point with Letang would be you restock the cabinets to make a trade for a younger player that fits the RD hole and hopefully extends the window a couple years.

Or you go the UFA route and sign a player like Klingberg or Dumba.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The most prudent thing to do is let Rust and Geno play out the string this year, and see how it goes. Maybe that will get Rust to actually play the kind of hockey that wins in the playoffs. Letang is another issue, I'd re-up him if he's agree to something reasonable. If we're out of contention at the deadline, you can recoup some serious assets by selling our expiring contracts for futures. Florida might be thrilled to add Geno at the deadline, and we could always have the option of bringing him back.

In all fairness, Geno being out half the season, then taking a month to get up to speed is about the only chance we have of peak Geno in the playoffs anyways. I hope they ease Sid back in for the same reason, he can't take a full season either.

It's not really my preference to ship out Geno, but I'm just not sure he's going to be available when you need him over the next few years. We can't even be sure what his ceiling is when "healthy" after this knee injury. We will have to see how the year plays out, and I imagine that's what Hextall is doing.

The org may be better advised to just extend Carter as your 2C, and use the cap savings elsewhere. It's not ideal, but what choice do you have if Geno doesn't come back from this latest injury, just keep hoping?

If I'm picking 2 of the big 3 to keep, it's definitely Sid and Letang, as you have nothing close to a replacement for either. And if the old Geno doesn't exist any more, you don't extend him for 8m or even 6m a year to play 40 games a season and be hurt by the playoffs.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's not really my preference to ship out Geno, but I'm just not sure he's going to be available when you need him over the next few years. We can't even be sure what his ceiling is when "healthy" after this knee injury. We will have to see how the year plays out, and I imagine that's what Hextall is doing.

The org may be better advised to just extend Carter as your 2C, and use the cap savings elsewhere. It's not ideal, but what choice do you have if Geno doesn't come back from this latest injury, just keep hoping?

If I'm picking 2 of the big 3 to keep, it's definitely Sid and Letang, as you have nothing close to a replacement for either. And if the old Geno doesn't exist any more, you don't extend him for 8m or even 6m a year to play 40 games a season and be hurt by the playoffs.

I imagine Malkin will probably put up the best numbers he has had in years after returning from knee injury. He's either going to be in excellent shape or unable to play much longer.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The point with Letang would be you restock the cabinets to make a trade for a younger player that fits the RD hole and hopefully extends the window a couple years.

Or you go the UFA route and sign a player like Klingberg or Reilly.

Ehhhhhh... at least you make a cogent point. But I feel like Letang's game will be pretty great for another 2-3 years, he is a true number 1 and fits this team and how it CAN play when they are successful.

I suppose it's just a matter of what your vision is for latter day success, here. I still really like Letang as a piece of the puzzle for the remainder of the supposed window and would prefer they simply dump Rust and Zucker to make room for another truly dynamic forward (easier said than done and they'll never do it anyway I admit) along with trimming some fat in other areas to make upgrades to elements of the bottom six and perhaps goaltending should Jarry intentionally throw more playoff games for Tony Soprano or whatever.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ehhhhhh... at least you make a cogent point. But I feel like Letang's game will be pretty great for another 2-3 years, he is a true number 1 and fits this team and how it CAN play when they are successful.

I suppose it's just a matter of what your vision is for latter day success, here. I still really like Letang as a piece of the puzzle for the remainder of the supposed window and would prefer they simply dump Rust and Zucker to make room for another truly dynamic forward (easier said than done and they'll never do it anyway I admit) along with trimming some fat in other areas to make upgrades to elements of the bottom six and perhaps goaltending should Jarry intentionally throw more playoff games for Tony Soprano or whatever.

I mean, Letang is my favorite player. But, if they are out of the playoffs, I don't see how you can pass up getting pieces back for him.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's not really my preference to ship out Geno, but I'm just not sure he's going to be available when you need him over the next few years. We can't even be sure what his ceiling is when "healthy" after this knee injury. We will have to see how the year plays out, and I imagine that's what Hextall is doing.

The org may be better advised to just extend Carter as your 2C, and use the cap savings elsewhere. It's not ideal, but what choice do you have if Geno doesn't come back from this latest injury, just keep hoping?

If I'm picking 2 of the big 3 to keep, it's definitely Sid and Letang, as you have nothing close to a replacement for either. And if the old Geno doesn't exist any more, you don't extend him for 8m or even 6m a year to play 40 games a season and be hurt by the playoffs.

I'm not worried about what Malkin will look like post injury. I suspect he'll be fine and possibly even really good. Age is a thing, either way.

But if he is done for do you really think he'll just hang around collecting a paycheck for years while not being able to help the team? No... he'll retire from the NHL and play for his home team for a few years.

Malkin doesn't "exist" anymore but frankly neither do any of these guys.

EDIT: Worse comes to worse and he just can't recover next season I certainly don't trade him (who would want him in this state anyway?) but instead have a discussion at the end of the year about how the team can't really afford to simply hand a guy who can't skate 24 million dollars or whatever. Then he retires.

Trading him to squeeze a like 20th overall at the very end of his career after being devastated by the realization that he cannot continue is just... kinda low.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm a firm opponent on trading Letang, unless a perfect scenario lines up where you can get assets for Letang while signing a Dougie Hamilton caliber defenseman as a UFA, and I completely agree that I'd pick Letang over Malkin if I could only keep one.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm a firm opponent on trading Letang, unless a perfect scenario lines up where you can get assets for Letang while signing a Dougie Hamilton caliber defenseman as a UFA, and I completely agree that I'd pick Letang over Malkin if I could only keep one.

Much easier and cheaper to find a replacement for Letang than Malkin IMO.