Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Sept.(camp/pre-season) The New Normal - The horror, the horror...

[Ugene Magic]

Last posts from last thread.

It's true he goes hot and cold one year to the next. Maybe we're due for a hot one then.

Well if it's gonna work with any Center, I could see Carter being the guy for him. Plays a simplistic style. He won't feel as compelled to force passes to Carter like he does with Malkin. And I suspect Zuck will get some free points with Kap running the gauntlet time to time.

To me, Zuck seems to be overthinking things out there a lot. He's concerned about appeasing his linemates too much. He plays best when he relies on his instincts and has an aggressive mindset. I like when he carries the puck himself with speed in the O-zone. That's when he can do damage. He starts sucking when he slows down and tries to get cute with give-and-go's.

Hopefully with Carter he'll have a better orientation of where his linemates are around him. To this point I feel Zuck is very poor with decision making/pass accuracy on the walls. The opposition get too many easy exits off turnovers.

I think we're mostly in agreement. The poor decision making on the walls is something I think could be cleaned up a bit with less overthinking too. Hopefully he has a good mental reset over the summer and finds that connection with Carter.

It's a shortened season of stats. I'm not sure why anyone is taking that season as any rational basis of future production.

In 2012-13 Andrew Ladd had 46pts in 48 games. A 79pt pace that he's never ever sniffed in his entire NHL career.

The mere fact anyone takes what happened last year as a sign of anything to come just makes me laugh.

It is absolutely bizarre to me how much Isles fans took Eberle for granted

Yeah he wasn’t as Gretzky like against us this postseason but I’m happy as f*** he’s outta the division.

PTO isn't a guarantee. Also if they're that desperate for a LHD, trade him that Pettersson.

I think you need bodies on PTO just in general so a lot of awful players get one. Some of you muppets read too into shit.

Also I figured Palms would stay on the Island. Lou figured out a way to keep that team strong and now with a full season with Kyle Palmieri.

I think Palmieri is going to be a bust there tbh.

Or their playstyles perfectly complement each other. Kucherov's a wizard at finding those seam passes for people darting into the slot to pick up in flight, and Point seems to excel at using his speed/agility to dart into that area to receive those passes.

Point definitely benefits from playing with a guy like Kucherov, but make no mistake Kucherov benefits from playing with a guy who goes to the areas to take advantage of what Kucherov does best.

Kucherov put up 100 points while playing with Stamkos and Namestnikov in 17-18.

I'm not denying Point is a # 1 C. But this idea that he is a top five center that was made above is ridiculous. He has an argument for top ten.

Stop cussing guys

I don't. Palmieri plays a fairly simple adaptable game that gets production. Trotz would have to purposely misuse him like Zucker is here, to tank his production.

He had a rough start when he got there, 4pts in 17 but then added 9 in 19 in the playoffs where he started to get comfortable. It's a whack season. I'd never consider what happened last year as Gospel for a lot of things.

You mean like use him on the third line and not play him on the 1st power play?

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Full season incoming.

Better looks as well.

Why does that change the fact Trotz used him on L3 and not on the 1st power play?

Who was on their first powerplay.

You have the weirdest fixation to prove a point that no one wanted or asked for one out of some serious petty shit.

Someone says hey good for that team with keeping a solid winger, you come in like the captain obvious with facts that no one wanted or cares about. But you do you.

Click to read more...

 

[Gurglesons]

Ugh.... You made me turn on my computer to argue this.

Top 20 centres per fantasy value starting last year, decent list to start with:

1 Nathan MacKinnon (COL - C) - clearly better
2 Connor McDavid (EDM - C,F) - clearly better

This is where it gets interesting.

3 Leon Draisaitl (EDM - C,LW) - plays with McDavid, does nothing in the playoff, might be better offensively, but not overall, Id take Point when it matters
4 Auston Matthews (TOR - C,F) - might be better offensively, plays with a Kuch lite player, does nothing in the playoffs
5 Sebastian Aho (CAR - C) - interesting argument
6 Jack Eichel (BUF - C,F) - has the potential, needs to get out of the tire fire hes in, unproven
7 Mika Zibanejad (NYR - C) - heck no
8 Sidney Crosby (PIT - C,F) - was, if healthy and engaged, can be better, if I had to Id take point
9 Brayden Point (TB - C,F) - enough said
10 Elias Pettersson (VAN - C) - unproven, talent might be there, isnt durable yet
11 Evgeni Malkin (PIT - C,F) - see Sid
12 Mark Scheifele (WPG - C,F) - interesting argument
13 John Tavares (TOR - C,F) - nope, terrible contract, doesnt really do much on his own now
14 Patrice Bergeron (BOS - C,F) - older version of Point
15 Aleksander Barkov Jr. (FLA - C,F) - could argue either way, lets see what the Panthers are this year,
16 Sean Couturier (PHI - C,F) - defensively yes, offensively no
17 Evgeny Kuznetsov (WSH - C,F) - heck no
18 Mathew Barzal (NYI - C,F) - interesting argument, personally would take Point
19 Ryan O'Reilly (STL - C) - defensively better, offensively worse, would take Point
20 Nicklas Backstrom (WSH - C,F) - not at this point in his career

So you have Mac and Mc clear at the top, then it gets interesting. Draisaitl, Matthews, Aho, Eichel, Scheifele, Barkov and Barzel mixed in with Point. First two I wouldnt take over Point if Im building a team, next 4 you could argue. Top 5 centre in the league is not a stretch.

You would take Eichel over Point, but not Matthews?

So basically what you are saying is you are taking Point because he did well in a playoffs. Two playoffs where Nikita Kucherov put up Mario Lemieux numbers.

 

[Gurglesons]

@Honour Over Glory I was providing reasoning for why I think Palmieri wouldn't be successful. Sorry someone disagreed with you.

 

[Zirakzigil]

You would take Eichel over Point, but not Matthews?

So basically what you are saying is you are taking Point because he did well in a playoffs. Two playoffs where Nikita Kucherov put up Mario Lemieux numbers.

If he comes back healthy, puts up 40+ goals and 60+ assists then maybe, but starting the season I would put Point #3 on centres I’d want leading my team. Barkov, Barzel and Aho are all close.

 

[Peat]

I think if Matthews was on Tampa, with Tampa's dmen to open up the game and with their superior depth to ease the burden, and with Kucherov's superior threat level running the power play instead of Marner's limited shooting threat, he'd shred things in the playoffs. I think it'd be dirty.

(Besides, if not doing things in the playoffs is that big a knock, how comes McDavid is so clear at the top...?)

I also think that with Couturier and ROR both outproducing Point last season, I'm curious about what makes him offensively better that doesn't lead back to the Kucherov thing. This was his season to make his case as an equal player rather than a piece riding in the wake, and he didn't take it.

I hope they go to the Olympics as it'll be interesting to see where he ends up in Canada's line up. I mean, if he's a top 5 centre contender talent then even allowing for all of Canada's talent, got to think you'd try and sneak him onto a wing in the top 6, right? Maybe stick him on Sid's wing.

 

[Gurglesons]

If he comes back healthy, puts up 40+ goals and 60+ assists then maybe, but starting the season I would put Point #3 on centres I’d want leading my team. Barkov, Barzel and Aho are all close.

I don’t get how you can put Barzal over Matthews either. Real Barzarre take.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think if Matthews was on Tampa, with Tampa's dmen to open up the game and with their superior depth to ease the burden, and with Kucherov's superior threat level running the power play instead of Marner's limited shooting threat, he'd shred things in the playoffs. I think it'd be dirty.

(Besides, if not doing things in the playoffs is that big a knock, how comes McDavid is so clear at the top...?)

I also think that with Couturier and ROR both outproducing Point last season, I'm curious about what makes him offensively better that doesn't lead back to the Kucherov thing. This was his season to make his case as an equal player rather than a piece riding in the wake, and he didn't take it.

I hope they go to the Olympics as it'll be interesting to see where he ends up in Canada's line up. I mean, if he's a top 5 centre contender talent then even allowing for all of Canada's talent, got to think you'd try and sneak him onto a wing in the top 6, right? Maybe stick him on Sid's wing.

I’m more curious about Team Canada putting McDavid at C or W.

Wonder how that’ll go if he’s played at W and he’s supposedly this Lemieux level talent. Granted Lemieux played LW with Gretzky back in 89.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

If he comes back healthy, puts up 40+ goals and 60+ assists then maybe, but starting the season I would put Point #3 on centres I’d want leading my team. Barkov, Barzel and Aho are all close.

Oh I'm easily taking Point over Eichel. Way more rounded game, more durable, better attitude, harder worker and insane playoff producer.

He was top 10 in Selke voting 3 years in a row. His takeaway-giveaway ratio is absurdly good for a Forward.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh I'm easily taking Point over Eichel. Way more rounded game, more durable, better attitude, harder worker and insane playoff producer.

I would take Point over Eichel as well, but I don’t have Eichel as a top ten C I don’t think.

 

[Peat]

A healthy Eichel could be in the indisputably next level attacking talent tier on a good team though. He's a mystery box because of everything he's been through, but there's possibly a super-elite gamebreaker in there.

I’m more curious about Team Canada putting McDavid at C or W.

Wonder how that’ll go if he’s played at W and he’s supposedly this Lemieux level talent.

I automatically assumed they'd play him at C due to prestige but, since you mention it, there's a real question there. You got all of Canada's centres and are picking 4, is McDavid the one you want to be actually picking up the defensive duties and all that? Good case for the rational answer being no.

Maybe they should stick McDavid on Crosby's line as the winger. Then everyone's happy until that young whippersnapper won't pass the puck to Sid enough.

McDavid-Crosby-MacKinnon. I want to see that line at least once.

 

[Gurglesons]

A healthy Eichel could be in the indisputably next level attacking talent tier on a good team though. He's a mystery box because of everything he's been through, but there's possibly a super-elite gamebreaker in there.



I automatically assumed they'd play him at C due to prestige but, since you mention it, there's a real question there. You got all of Canada's centres and are picking 4, is McDavid the one you want to be actually picking up the defensive duties and all that? Good case for the rational answer being no.

Maybe they should stick McDavid on Crosby's line as the winger. Then everyone's happy until that young whippersnapper won't pass the puck to Sid enough.

McDavid-Crosby-MacKinnon. I want to see that line at least once.

I actually was thinking they put Point between those two and then have the Marchand - Crosby - Bergeron unit behind it.

That makes me less confident in the US putting up a fight this year despite the defensive and goaltending advantages.

I agree on Eichel, but at the same time he’s got a significant injury. I just fail to see how someone explains Point over Matthews unless you are using the playoffs and then if you are McDavid can’t be first.

 

[Peat]

I actually was thinking they put Point between those two and then have the Marchand - Crosby - Bergeron unit behind it.

That would be perfectly cromulent too. Virtually impossible to screw up. But darn it all if I don't want to see Crosby with those two just as a giant flex.

That makes me less confident in the US putting up a fight this year despite the defensive and goaltending advantages.

Canada's talent level at forward is just gross. If you were just to pick their starting 12 by ppg from last season, Point wouldn't make it. Neither would Bergeron, Tavares, Barzal...

The US probably has as much offensive talent (well, from forwards 3-12), but not as many of them are defensively sound as well. Pretty interesting to see how the US play that. I wouldn't be surprised to hear a lot of screaming when they leave some of the high scoring offence only players at home...

I agree on Eichel, but at the same time he’s got a significant injury. I just fail to see how someone explains Point over Matthews unless you are using the playoffs and then if you are McDavid can’t be first.

Fair all round.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

@Honour Over Glory I was providing reasoning for why I think Palmieri wouldn't be successful. Sorry someone disagreed with you.

It wasn't up for a back and forth. It was a statement that they made it work to keep their talent. Many thought they wouldn't be able to.

 

[Gurglesons]

It wasn't up for a back and forth. It was a statement that they made it work to keep their talent. Many thought they wouldn't be able to.

I don’t think anyone thought they’d lose the players they signed.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'd still try to get Eichel. Everyone knows the issue and the value won't be as high as it could be and everyone also knows this can get super ugly if they don't move him and he has to report to the team he has absolutely no trust in.

A First, Poulin, Angello, and Pettersson.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'd still try to get Eichel. Everyone knows the issue and the value won't be as high as it could be and everyone also knows this can get super ugly if they don't move him and he has to report to the team he has absolutely no trust in.

A First, Poulin, Angello, and Pettersson.

How mangled is Eichel?

No way we get him without sending Jake back and/or to a 3rd team. Or you'd have to start with Marino, Zucker or something like that.

It isn't happening. To be honest though I'm always up to go big-game hunting for the next franchise player I don't want it to be a player signed for ungodly years/money with huge medical uncertainty.

 

[Gurglesons]

I’d rather pay the same package for Hertl versus Eichel tbh.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Eichel is all world talent imo. Like only McDavid and maybe Matthews possess that level of god given raw ability. I really want to see him healthy and on a good team.

Very curious, I think there is completely-nuke-the-league type of potential.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I’d rather pay the same package for Hertl versus Eichel tbh.

Yeah Hertl is super-well suited to start as a high-powered compliment to 87/71 then gradually become the main guy - or at least co-main guy with 87.

At a glance, Guentzel for an extended Hertl is very close.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Eichel is all world talent imo. Like only McDavid and maybe Matthews possess that level of god given raw ability. I really want to see him healthy and on a good team.

Very curious, I think there is completely-nuke-the-league type of potential.

I've never put Eichel in that generational player category.

From the modern generation, Mack McD, Drai and Matthews are all clearly above him. He's on the same level as a Barkov. Run-of-the-mill franchise center type of material. Like a great player but in an ordinary way. I don't see "otherworldly" with him and never have.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah Hertl is super-well suited to start as a high-powered compliment to 87/71 then gradually become the main guy - or at least co-main guy with 87.

At a glance, Guentzel for an extended Hertl is very close.

Not really. As I said in the last salary cap thread the deal is probably Kapanen, Poulin and a 1st for him as a UFA throw in Clang or Blomqvist if he signs.

 

[Gurglesons]

I've never put Eichel in that generational player category.

From the modern generation, Mack McD, Drai and Matthews are all clearly above him. He's on the same level as a Barkov. Run-of-the-mill franchise center type of material. Like a great player but in an ordinary way. I don't see "otherworldly" with him and never have.

Last year he had the big performance where he looked like a 1st overall guy.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Not really. As I said in the last salary cap thread the deal is probably Kapanen, Poulin and a 1st for him as a UFA throw in Clang or Blomqvist if he signs.

Eek. Kapanen, Poulin and a 1st? I'd rather move Jake. That is if Jake is interesting to them.

If we had Hertl, a left winger has to go the other way.

 

[Gurglesons]

Eek. Kapanen, Poulin and a 1st? I'd rather move Jake. That is if Jake is interesting to them.

If we had Hertl, a left winger has to go the other way.

If Hertl is on the market teams like CBJ and Minnesota are going to be selling their farms. Guentzel ain't working.

 

[madinsomniac]

if we obtained Eichel, one of three things would probably happen…
1. He would spontaneously combust as soon as he touched the cursed ice at ppg
2. He would come down with a contagious case of leprosy and infect the team
3. He will be absolutely great until a defensive goon brings an axe on the ice and lops his head off and the department of player safety gives the guy a medal for safeguarding good ol fashioned hockey…