Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: October - We got Boyle! Yay....? But the season is starting!

[Gurglesons]

I'm certainly no expert, but I think it is crazy not to hold optimism after our mini-roadtrip. Sometimes the negativity in these forums is just baffling.

People get mad at me, but it is 100% a Pittsburgh thing. Boston does it too. There is so much success it blinds people to the fact that most teams don’t win a championship every year, every decade or even every twenty years.

A lot of teams don’t make the playoffs consistently. People on here expect to win rounds every year.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Malkin had a few bad weeks last year to start the season and people act like his career is over.

As a guy who uses the term "shitshow nightmare" for Malkin's season last year... even I think the criticism has gone a bit far. There was at least as much good as bad.

 

[Gurglesons]

As a guy who uses the term "shitshow nightmare" for Malkin's season last year... even I think the criticism has gone a bit far. There was at least as much good as bad.

Sidney Crosby got outscored at 5v5 in the 15-16 playoffs worse than Malkin did last regular season.

This concept of stat watching people use on this board after already having a mindset is the very definition of the opposite of how stats should be implemented.

 

[Pens x]

People get mad at me, but it is 100% a Pittsburgh thing. Boston does it too. There is so much success it blinds people to the fact that most teams don’t win a championship every year, every decade or even every twenty years.

A lot of teams don’t make the playoffs consistently. People on here expect to win rounds every year.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect your team to win a round in 3 years, especially when 2 of those teams were inferior on paper. No one is upset that we didn’t win the cup during the last 3 seasons.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect your team to win a round in 3 years, especially when 2 of those teams were inferior on paper. No one is upset that we didn’t win the cup during the last 3 seasons.

None of the teams were inferior on paper by certain metrics. The reality in hockey is every playoff series is a coin flip. Selling off your best assets is not the way to make the coin flip differently.

I know it’s frustrating, but it’s just the reality of the sport. A lot of hockey is luck.

 

[Headshot77]

Honestly, the only assets which have depreciated are Crosby and Malkin. The remainder, outside of Jake, Rust, and Letang, just aren't very valuable.
/QUOTE]

Letang is our MVP and somebody is gonna dump 8+ million on his doorstep after this season. He has TONS of value.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sidney Crosby got outscored at 5v5 in the 15-16 playoffs worse than Malkin did last regular season.

This concept of stat watching people use on this board after already having a mindset is the very definition of the opposite of how stats should be implemented.

Also I mean... we all DO know these guys are well into their 30s, right? We didn't really expect them to not have some ups and downs as they aged? You can't pace at 1.3+ PPG forever...

 

[Gurglesons]

Also I mean... we all DO know these guys are well into their 30s, right? We didn't really expect them to not have some ups and downs as they aged? You can't pace at 1.3+ PPG forever...

I mean even when they were doing that we lost in the 1st round like 50% of the time from 2005-06 to 2014-15..

2006-07
2010-11
2011-12
2014-15

Granted 10-11 they were both out. But from 09-10 to 15-16 the only teams we beat in the playoffs were NYI, Ottawa and Columbus.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

This core has at least 1 more good run, maybe 2. Some people always forget (in-between Cups I guess)..."depth" does not replace what 87/71/58 bring when it matters. The only question for Malkin is his knee. Otherwise I have no doubt he has more great hockey left. Letang and Crosby do as well, obviously. I think Malkin will come in somewhere in the 7-8 range. Letang will get a raise but will stay here.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This core has at least 1 more good run, maybe 2. Some people always forget (in-between Cups I guess)..."depth" does not replace what 87/71/58 bring when it matters. The only question for Malkin is his knee. Otherwise I have no doubt he has more great hockey left. Letang and Crosby do as well, obviously. I think Malkin will come in somewhere in the 7-8 range. Letang will get a raise but will stay here.

I guess sometimes I just think maybe people take how good these guys are a little for granted? I get that the cliff comes up quick for MOST guys. These aren't most guys.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

And that was really the point Sullivan was making in that Athletic article that was somewhat maligned here. The elite guys are different.

 

[Pens x]

None of the teams were inferior on paper by certain metrics. The reality in hockey is every playoff series is a coin flip. Selling off your best assets is not the way to make the coin flip differently.

I know it’s frustrating, but it’s just the reality of the sport. A lot of hockey is luck.

I think you are oversimplifying it. Last year had nothing to do with luck. I guess you could say we had the bad luck of having pathetic goaltending and two GMs that refused to address it or a head coach unwilling to try someone else? You can’t really blame last season on luck.

Luck plays a role in winning the cup, not failing to get out of the first round for 3 straight seasons. That falls on poor coaching, poor goaltending and crappy off seasons on part of management.

 

[PensandCaps]

The Habs team that we lost to 2 years ago were very different than the Habs team from last season…

Not really. They just got lucky in a game 7 vs a vastly better Leafs team.

 

[BillyOcean]

I mean the justification would be the comparable contracts for centers in the league.

Good point but I don't know if there's been a recent comp off the top of my head for a future hall of fame center with significant injuries concerns who will be 36 the season the new contract begins.

Joe Thornton maybe around 2017 signed a one year deal for 8 million?

Anything with years might be less to reduce the cap hit.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If Geno isn't markedly improved from his level last year, I will be upset if he goes for more than $7.5M.

He has been poor in 2 of the last 3 seasons and has missed tons of time, which counts. I'm all about his legacy, greatness etc. but I'm very opposed to giving "thank you for your past service" contracts at huge salary numbers (there are some instances where I'm fine with legacy contracts, such as what the Steelers have been doing with Ryan Shazier).

Just because his lack of availability hasn't cost us playoffs spots in the past doesn't mean it couldn't in the future. And we need to be squirreling cap space where we can to go hunting for other big names to complement them - Hertl, Forsberg, etc.

Furthermore, as you said Letang deserves a raise if anything. He has been a bargain at his price and is currently the Pens best player. Frankly he has been the most important player on the team for years.

Yeah, I just think this team's gonna bend the knee to both Geno and Letang and re-sign 'em for whatever they want. Ticket and merch sales are key to ownership and after all the lost revenue from Covid, they're gonna want to milk out the last dollars from this era before the cash cow is finally dry.

I don't see Geno taking anything less than $7.5 million whatsoever. Even that's pushing it, I expect him to come in somewhere right around $8 million.

Letang's gonna be the ugly situation, imo. With how much money GMs are throwing at blueliners around the league, I can't imagine Letang and his camp aren't just kinda licking their chops waiting to cash in. Especially since he sort of has the team in a bad spot re: the blueline. No realistic #1 d-men available in FA this summer, and we don't have the assets to replace Letang via trade.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

@Headshot77
I think he was saying everyone outside of Jake, Rust and Letang aren't valuable.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Kessel outscored the other team at 5v5 in 18-19.

The big dunk on Malkin last year comes from the expected goals crowd which correct me if I’m wrong is something you consistently dunk on, correct?

Malkin had a few bad weeks last year to start the season and people act like his career is over.

Malkin was terrible for his first 20 games last year before looking pretty good for 10 and then getting hurt. Because of course he got hurt.

My big dunk on Malkin is that he looked unimpactful. That the xG numbers backed it up or didn't back it up is only vaguely relevant to me.

Look all of this is irrelevant if he comes back and looks like he did in his 10 good games or in '19-'20 or in most of his years before. But if it replicates last year then all that money is doing is paying for nostalgia. That wasn't a winning player last year. Give me Carter at 2C and we'll figure it out.

Regardless my expectation is both that he looks pretty good and that he takes a pay cut. At least to offset Letang who IMO needs a raise.

 

[Gurglesons]

Good point but I don't know if there's been a recent comp off the top of my head for a future hall of fame center with significant injuries concerns who will be 36 the season the new contract begins.

Joe Thornton maybe around 2017 signed a one year deal for 8 million?

Anything with years might be less to reduce the cap hit.

Thornton got 3 years I think at a comparable rate to 9 mil in 2014?

 

[ChaosAgent]

I feel like this will just be circular talk because you’re very rash in your assignments. Nothing wrong with that, you enjoy the sport having immediate reactions.

One day you’ll be old with a child or whatever and understand judging a player whose done what Malkin has on a 20 game sample ain’t worth it.

Or maybe you’ll be at Jack’s in Southside with a Ben jersey I dunno.

I don't plan on having a child.

This is all a self-congratulatory post. Really it's so rife with unnecessary personal attacks that whatever substance is underneath isn't worth it. Shadow-edit to a substantive argument - I know shadow-editing is your greatest strength and I can see an actual point there - but I won't address it. Because as always it's personal attack nonsense posted with a half-stiffy.

GFY.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think Geno was bad for a full 20 games to start, but he was definitely bad for the first dozen or so. The lack of off-season training and some heavy confidence/mental issues were extremely evident.

Doesn't matter though. He could not post a point all season (obviously exaggeration) and the FO would still cater to whatever his demands are for a new deal. That's just the reality of the situation.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't plan on having a child.

This is all a self-congratulatory post. Really it's so rife with unnecessary personal attacks that whatever substance is underneath isn't worth it. Shadow-edit to a substantive argument - I know shadow-editing is your greatest strength and I can see an actual point there - but I won't address it. Because as always it's personal attack nonsense posted with a half-stiffy.

GFY.

Malkin is the second best Russian in NHL history and you want to cast his legacy aside with this franchise because of a maybe.

AFTER the dude just put up 5 pts in 4 playoffs games potentially damaging his knee long term in his life.

Look in the mirror. Malkin on any other franchise would be their all time greatest player yet you’ll sit there and act like 20 games in a pandemic ridden season define him.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Malkin is the second best Russian in NHL history and you want to cast his legacy aside with this franchise because of a maybe.

AFTER the dude just put up 5 pts in 4 playoffs games significantly damaging his knee long term in his life.

Look in the mirror.

I don't want to set aside ANYTHING.

I want to see him on the ice this year to see what he looks like. If he's great as he's been most of the time, sure cater to him. If he sucks, play hardball.

His next contract isn't a referendum on his legacy. It's about whether this team actually pays players for anticipated future production or not.

I appreciate you not littering your post with your "lol Yinzer and I hate Pittsburgh (not really but really I do)" feelings of superiority.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't want to set aside ANYTHING.

I want to see him on the ice this year to see what he looks like. If he's great as he's been most of the time, sure cater to him. If he sucks, play hardball.

His next contract isn't a referendum on his legacy. It's about whether this team actually pays players for anticipated future production or not.

I appreciate you not littering your post with your "lol Yinzer and I hate Pittsburgh (not really but really I do)" feelings of superiority.

We have a chance to have Sid; Letang; and Malkin retire Penguins. While being a competitive team despite what you and @Big Friggin Dummy say.

It is a referendum.

 

[Peat]

I don't want to set aside ANYTHING.

I want to see him on the ice this year to see what he looks like. If he's great as he's been most of the time, sure cater to him. If he sucks, play hardball.

His next contract isn't a referendum on his legacy. It's about whether this team actually pays players for anticipated future production or not.

I appreciate you not littering your post with your "lol Yinzer and I hate Pittsburgh (not really but really I do)" feelings of superiority.

Not being funny, but isn't this argument basically irrelevant with the bolded? Because once it happens, whatever Geno did last season kinda won't come into his next contract. At which point, why argue over what he'd deserve based on last season?

 

[ChaosAgent]

We have a chance to have Sid; Letang; and Malkin retire Penguins. While being a competitive team despite what you and @Big Friggin Dummy say.

It is a referendum.

We won't have a competitive team if we pay Geno $9.5M against our cap at age 39.

But as always, I appreciate a post without 2-3 personal swipes.

BFD ignored you and can't see what you post. Nonetheless @Big Friggin Dummy Pixies is lumping you in with me as Rondu-adjacent. Just wanna let you know.