Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: November - Go home Sully, you're drunk

[Tacitus Kilgore]

Jake for Coked up Ryan Malone pls

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I disagree. I think he benefited greatly from a still prime 87/71 on a Cup caliber team. He took full advantage of that.

His “regression” has more to do with the trajectory of the team and its core pieces. He’s never been someone to have great games independent of his center’s impact. That’s what we need more than ever.

Eh, I don't know. I'm about as hard on Jake as anyone around, but Jake when he jumped into the league full-time and Jake now are dramatically different guys. He definitely benefited from playing with a Sid and Geno who weren't 35 and battered to shit, but I do think early Jake was a way more dynamic, way more engaged player.

I think we're past the point of no return as far as "needing that now more than ever". The caliber of guy we'd need to yank this team out of the tailspin of age and injury isn't a reasonable acquisition. Forsberg, Tarasenko, Gaudreau--these aren't guys good enough to do what a team in our position needs in order to become a legit challenger again. They're not as good as Kessel was when we got him, and even then, we still had a 27/28 year old Sid and Geno--not two guys ~35 and with several more significant injuries piled on since.

 

[Gurglesons]

You’d only take 9 forwards in the league over him during that time frame?

Again. If he was that level of talent, we’d be a powerhouse.

Offensively we were for a couple of those years. Issue was always our defense.

 

[dogthateats]

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Jake for Coked up Ryan Malone pls

Could just give Jake coke and have him never once think about his shoulder issue again, nor feel any pain.

 

[mpp9]

Offensively we were for a couple of those years. Issue was always our defense.

We were middling among playoff teams in terms of CF% and xGF% in that time frame. And that’s including 17-18 when most here would agree we still had a very good chance at a Cup.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Maybe Flower joined the Hawks to sabotage them. What a guy!

 

[Gurglesons]

We were middling among playoff teams in terms of CF% and xGF% in that time frame. And that’s including 17-18 when most here would agree we still had a very good chance at a Cup.

We also were subject to significant injuries throughout those years.

 

[mpp9]

Eh, I don't know. I'm about as hard on Jake as anyone around, but Jake when he jumped into the league full-time and Jake now are dramatically different guys. He definitely benefited from playing with a Sid and Geno who weren't 35 and battered to shit, but I do think early Jake was a way more dynamic, way more engaged player.

I think we're past the point of no return as far as "needing that now more than ever". The caliber of guy we'd need to yank this team out of the tailspin of age and injury isn't a reasonable acquisition. Forsberg, Tarasenko, Gaudreau--these aren't guys good enough to do what a team in our position needs in order to become a legit challenger again. They're not as good as Kessel was when we got him, and even then, we still had a 27/28 year old Sid and Geno--not two guys ~35 and with several more significant injuries piled on since.

I would wager Gaudreau would put us a in a far better spot to compete while the big guns can still put up ppgish numbers. After that, yeah it’s game over.

I’m cool with whatever at this point. We’ve achieved what was needed in this era. What happens, happens.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I would wager Gaudreau would put us a in a far better spot to compete while the big guns can still put up ppgish numbers. After that, yeah it’s game over.

I’m cool with whatever at this point. We’ve achieved what was needed in this era. What happens, happens.

Y'see, I think Gaudreau is pretty much everything that's wrong with Jake. He's a smallish guy who plays a soft game, doesn't really elevate in the playoffs, and with his new deal, he's probably gonna ask for a ridiculous amount to stick around.

I'd rather just hang on to Jake and eventually move him for a big bunch of futures, potentially as soon as this summer if/when the wheels fall off this season--be it before the playoffs, or following another 1st round exit.

 

[LOGiK]

I'm willing to go on record this is the year they finally miss the playoffs.

Besides, if they do make it... I'm beyond watching a punishing first round defeat.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I get the gut feeling that we'll either hang on to Rust and lose him for nothing to some team like Detroit who is gonna give him some absurd Hyman-like contract, or we'll try like Hell to re-sign him. I would love to see the team take a proactive approach and move him at the deadline or something, but I just can't see anything like that happening within the spectrum of reality.

Summer's gonna be a real pivot point for the franchise, I'd guess. Everything hinges on Geno and Letang, and I'd guess the latter is gonna want big bucks to continue being our #1 d-man. Market value for top defensemen has skyrocketed, Letang's been on a crazy discount for years, and he holds all the cards because sans Letang, this blueline is firmly in "just f***ing blow it up" territory--with nobody even close to his level available through FA or trade.

 

[LOGiK]

The worst thing about Jakes injury was that it had such long-term and career changing damage.... for a goal that meant nothing in a game that was already won. That hurts the worst.

Old Jake gone and died that day in my mind. So I'm prepared for this Jake.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Eh, I don't know. I'm about as hard on Jake as anyone around, but Jake when he jumped into the league full-time and Jake now are dramatically different guys. He definitely benefited from playing with a Sid and Geno who weren't 35 and battered to shit, but I do think early Jake was a way more dynamic, way more engaged player.

I think we're past the point of no return as far as "needing that now more than ever". The caliber of guy we'd need to yank this team out of the tailspin of age and injury isn't a reasonable acquisition. Forsberg, Tarasenko, Gaudreau--these aren't guys good enough to do what a team in our position needs in order to become a legit challenger again. They're not as good as Kessel was when we got him, and even then, we still had a 27/28 year old Sid and Geno--not two guys ~35 and with several more significant injuries piled on since.

I think the bolded is the biggest issue with Jake right now. When he first came up and his first couple of seasons with us, he looked almost like a poor man's Brad Marchand. He'd go to the dirty areas consistently, and he'd play almost with this edge where his size wasn't going to deter him.

Today, he plays more like a "finesse" forward. He's talented enough to get his points when the opposition is playing lousy defense and leaving holes in their D-zone coverage, but he's no longer willing to battle for that open space when the opposition is even halfway competent defensively.

In a lot of ways, I think he's gotten content with just getting paid a lot of money.

 

[KIRK]

The worst thing about Jakes injury was that it had such long-term and career changing damage.... for a goal that meant nothing in a game that was already won. That hurts the worst.

Old Jake gone and died that day in my mind. So I'm prepared for this Jake.

That's the thing. When people say they'd entertain trading Jake, they're not talking about old Jake. They're talking about the Jake you've got now (both in terms of never coming fully back from the shoulder and other teams knowing they can give him a rough ride and make him even more timid).

 

[ChaosAgent]

Woah man, don’t insult the culinary delicacies of Pittsburgh like that.

cc: @DocEmrickSkitters

Bleu Cheese plz

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think the bolded is the biggest issue with Jake right now. When he first came up and his first couple of seasons with us, he looked almost like a poor man's Brad Marchand. He'd go to the dirty areas consistently, and he'd play almost with this edge where his size wasn't going to deter him.

Today, he plays more like a "finesse" forward. He's talented enough to get his points when the opposition is playing lousy defense and leaving holes in their D-zone coverage, but he's no longer willing to battle for that open space when the opposition is even halfway competent defensively.

In a lot of ways, I think he's gotten content with just getting paid a lot of money.

I don't think it's a money/contract thing. I think he just got the shit kicked out of him one too many times and nobody likes getting a stick in the kidneys or punched in the face. Add in his shoulder issue and it's a mess.

Jake's always been good around the net, be it cleaning up loose pucks or deflecting shots from the point. The problem is that he's not built for that sort of workload and now that his shoulder's f***ed, it's basically all he leans on anymore. In the regular season, it's one thing, but in the playoffs it's an entirely different beast.

Defensively is where I think his game's probably dropped off the most. Dude's as bad as Kessel ever was away from the puck. Just embarrassing levels of fly-bys and losing track of his assignments and lazy backchecks.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Y'see, I think Gaudreau is pretty much everything that's wrong with Jake. He's a smallish guy who plays a soft game, doesn't really elevate in the playoffs, and with his new deal, he's probably gonna ask for a ridiculous amount to stick around.

He can skate though.

It isn't just that Jake gets ragdolled all over the ice. He's slow as shiz and labors around the ice.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That's the thing. When people say they'd entertain trading Jake, they're not talking about old Jake. They're talking about the Jake you've got now (both in terms of never coming fully back from the shoulder and other teams knowing they can give him a rough ride and make him even more timid).

The added benefit is it would force Sullivan to actually shake up his lines.

It's kind of sad that management has to actively move players out in order to force Sullivan to stop stubbornly sticking with the same combinations every single night, even when they're not working.

 

[KIRK]

He can skate though.

It isn't just that Jake gets ragdolled all over the ice. He's slow as shiz and labors around the ice.

I wouldn't say 'slow as shit', but speed isn't an advantage for him like it may have been to a degree a few years ago (how much of that is Jake and how much is the league, even the big teams, being faster is a debate for another spot).

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

He can skate though.

It isn't just that Jake gets ragdolled all over the ice. He's slow as shiz and labors around the ice.

I don't know that Jake's slow, I just think he's lazy, and clueless without the puck now. Which is weird considering he was originally a C who had a solid all-around game before joining the NHL club.

Gaudreau definitely creates more than current Jake, but I don't know how well that'd work with two centers who also need to be carrying the puck to have the most impact.

A lot of stuff makes me not too keen on trading for Gaudreau, tbh. Not the least of which is his impending ~$8 million AAV payday, and the massive cost it'd take to pry him out of a Calgary team that's doing pretty well right now.

 

[KIRK]

The added benefit is it would force Sullivan to actually shake up his lines.

It's kind of sad that management has to actively move players out in order to force Sullivan to stop stubbornly sticking with the same combinations every single night, even when they're not working.

Not sure you'll ever get away from that, with or without Jake. Sully was a guy 4-5 years ago who was a lot more proactive when it came to managing his combos.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't know that Jake's slow, I just think he's lazy, and clueless without the puck now. Which is weird considering he was originally a C who had a solid all-around game before joining the NHL club.

Gaudreau definitely creates more than current Jake, but I don't know how well that'd work with two centers who also need to be carrying the puck to have the most impact.

A lot of stuff makes me not too keen on trading for Gaudreau, tbh. Not the least of which is his impending ~$8 million AAV payday, and the massive cost it'd take to pry him out of a Calgary team that's doing pretty well right now.

Gaudreau definitely isn't who I'd target. I would want someone bigger, or that doesn't have the size concerns Gaudreau has.

But honestly I don't care about a 1-for-1 trade. Move him now, get assets then figure out what to do with them later. We play okay with like 47 guys injured. Losing Jake is just another piece down.

BTW your point that he was a center coming up is well-taken. Sully and the team know that his all-around game is regressed. Not even entertaining the notion of putting him at C down Crosby & Malkin...let alone Crosby, Malkin and Carter is proof positive that they know he's a liability now.

 

[KIRK]

Gaudreau definitely isn't who I'd target. I would want someone bigger, or that doesn't have the size concerns Gaudreau has.

But honestly I don't care about a 1-for-1 trade. Move him now, get assets then figure out what to do with them later. We play okay with like 47 guys injured. Losing Jake is just another piece down.

Look, you don't give him away (sometimes people construe slightly hyperbolic comments made here as ZOMG GIVE HIM AWAY FOR A BAG OF PUCKS), but I really don't see the controversy in saying THIS Jake isn't an untouchable and, as such, is someone you're willing to entertain moving.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Gaudreau definitely isn't who I'd target. I would want someone bigger, or that doesn't have the size concerns Gaudreau has.

But honestly I don't care about a 1-for-1 trade. Move him now, get assets then figure out what to do with them later. We play okay with like 47 guys injured. Losing Jake is just another piece down.

Yeah, I think we're well beyond the Neal-Hornqvist stage of trying to find a paradigm shift. That probably should've happened after the Habs play-in series.

Think we just wait and see how badly Letang wants to rob the FO and what's up with Geno this summer and move from there. Even if they stick around, I hope Hexturke makes it clear we're no longer in "all in at any cost" territory, and we'll start parting out the team for futures sooner than later.