Salary Cap: Penguins future roster building (2017-18 and beyond) | Contract/FA charts in Post #1

[molon labe]

Assuming Letang and Schultz will be back next year, then this has been 5/6 of the way done. That would give us

an elite #1 RD in Letang
a solid top pairing LD partner for him in Dumoulin
two solid middle pairing D in Maatta and Schultz who can fill the top pair role for short stints
and a great #5D in Cole who can step in and play on the 2nd pair very effectively.

We need a #6 and some depth guys. Ruhwedel looks like a guy who can be a #6 to me. Would it be nice to get someone better? Sure it would. It's always nice to upgrade. But the only spot on our D where we NEED to find someone is 3RD. Everywhere else will be filled with guys who are capable of filling the role we need them to fill. All of this assuming expansion doesn't take a D from us obviously.

It comes down to cost for me. I think Ruh is a better 6D for what he'll be getting payed than Bonino likely will be as a 3C for what he's getting payed. If we can afford both, awesome. Upgrade away. I am in no way against upgrading the D. If we can use Maatta for an upgrade somewhere and then bring in a solid replacement, by all means do it. If we can find a better 3RD than Ruh, or even find a better 2RD than Schultz and push him to 3RD, by all means, do it. But we can have a solid D again just by bringing back Ruh and Schultz.

Edit: When fully healthy we have the most complimenting defense towards team style that we maybe have ever had. (Sorry coffee not kicking in yet)

Problem is we can only count on Letang being healthy for 50-65 games at the most, and there's absolutely no way to guess when those games are.

When I talk about shoring up the blueline, I'm talking about how we should have something similar to our forward group - where we can 'afford' to lose about 2 maybe 3 guys on average (which is average for the Pens for whatever reason) and still function in the same style. If we lose 2 or 3 defensemen, our entire structure changes. I wouldn't go nuts over it, but I'd like to see a legitimate 'replacement' for Letang where we can still have Schultz as our PPQB and comfortable on the 2nd pairing. Nobody can comfortably step in for Letang when he's out. This idea will certainly come at a price. Shattenkirk to me looks like a replacement to Schultz as he couldn't carry Tanger's jock on the defensive end...and he'd be pricey replacement/insurance for Schultz. Don't know if that's really worth it.

 

[HandshakeLine]

If you have a better way to describe people who refuse to accept the reality of Maatta's poor play I'd like to see it.

It's telling that so many of the responses here are simply attempts to discredit the method which I deliver the reality of the situation.

It's telling that you have to ask me to hand you a rhetorical framework so that you can discuss something without resorting to inflammatory terms and strawmen.

 

[DanielPlainview]

It's telling that you have to ask me to hand you a rhetorical framework so that you can discuss something without resorting to inflammatory terms and strawmen.

Yes. I need you to provide me a "rhetorical framework" to discuss hockey... The people telling me that I'm making up everything but the skating issue, are resorting to attacking completely irrelevant things instead of trying to argue against my points about Maatta, or simply resort to "you have no argument bro" are apologists. And if you think being called an apologist is in someway inflammatory then you need to grow some thicker skin.

There have been 0 strawmen given by me.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yes. I need you to provide me a "rhetorical framework" to discuss hockey... The people telling me that I'm making up everything but the skating issue, are resorting to attacking completely irrelevant things instead of trying to argue against my points about Maatta, or simply resort to "you have no argument bro" are apologists. And if you think being called an apologist is in someway inflammatory then you need to grow some thicker skin.

There have been 0 strawmen given by me.

I got plenty of thick skin, kid. You're the one melting down.

Maybe you should get some gelato. Gelato helps.

 

[Penske]

Yes. I need you to provide me a "rhetorical framework" to discuss hockey... The people telling me that I'm making up everything but the skating issue, are resorting to attacking completely irrelevant things instead of trying to argue against my points about Maatta, or simply resort to "you have no argument bro" are apologists. And if you think being called an apologist is in someway inflammatory then you need to grow some thicker skin.

There have been 0 strawmen given by me.

The only evidence you are providing is your eye test nothing else. There's stats out there that discredit you and almost everyone else's eye test disagrees with you.

You hate Mattaa we get it but move along if all you can provide is "it's what I see".

 

[DanielPlainview]

I got plenty of thick skin, kid. You're the one melting down.

Maybe you should get some gelato. Gelato helps.

What melt down? I'm having a blast here. What is clear, though, is some here are completely unable to handle criticism of Maatta

 

[DanielPlainview]

The only evidence you are providing is your eye test nothing else. There's stats out there that discredit you and almost everyone else's eye test disagrees with you.

You hate Mattaa we get it but move along if all you can provide is "it's what I see".

I don't hate Maatta, I just think he's not a good player and I base that on watching him play.

Stats are not reality in the way you want them to be here. And the only responses to my points have been a bunch of "nuh uh!" posts. I mean seriously, that's all this has been. It's ridiculous.

Maatta can't skate. He can't shoot. His passes are often poor and he often struggles to receive passes. He is often out of position. He plays with next to no intensity. These are the facts.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I don't hate Maatta, I just think he's not a good player and I base that on watching him play.

Stats are not reality in the way you want them to be here. And the only responses to my points have been a bunch of "nuh uh!" posts. I mean seriously, that's all this has been. It's ridiculous.

Maatta can't skate. He can't shoot. His passes are often poor and he often struggles to receive passes. He is often out of position. He plays with next to no intensity. These are the facts. Either accept it or be an apologist.

Ok lets take this slow so you dont get confused...

Why is Maata bad? AS/IN actual play and results not ... cant skate and cant pass and all this other broad stroke nonsense.

Because all statistical evidence points to him being at least quite competent if not just good. So even if you were right about all his flaws, its obvious that either you are ignoring all the things he does well or blowing those flaws out of proportion to how they actually effect hockey games.

BUT if you think, there is a chance that all of these stats are somehow missing why he is bad. Heres the chance to PROVE your case. I wont hold my breath.

 

[chethejet]

At one time he showed great promise. But injuries, surgery have taken it's toll. How much I don't know. But at this point he isn't worth that contract and quite frankly GMJR was far to premature to extend him. But he is 22 so who knows. His skating is not good and unless that improves big time, he is a 5 type due to his not adding anything that most 5 types play at.

 

[Peat]

Agree to disagree here. I've never in any sport been one to compare salaries because I feel there are variables that cause the market to really go one way or the other. Some franchises feel desperate, some feel they owe, some are afraid to let go of guys, etc. For instance there's a very likely scenario where some team grossly overpays Shattenkirk this year. According to market, if he gets 6.5 or 7 some may say that's average - but according to what that then takes away from your team in terms of cap hit it becomes an overpayment - because that team is overpaying for a specific service. Goalie tandems that total 10M'ish is an overpayment for that position.

- thoughts along those lines. So yeah agree to disagree.

How do you work out what's an overpayment and what's not without looking at what that payment can net you in the rest of the market?

 

[MayorofWBS]

I don't hate Maatta, I just think he's not a good player and I base that on watching him play.

Stats are not reality in the way you want them to be here. And the only responses to my points have been a bunch of "nuh uh!" posts. I mean seriously, that's all this has been. It's ridiculous.

Maatta can't skate. He can't shoot. His passes are often poor and he often struggles to receive passes. He is often out of position. He plays with next to no intensity. These are the facts. Either accept it or be an apologist.

I know, how did he manage to be a 1st rounder and make it to NHL with all these super glaring deficiencies in his game. It's a good thing you're here to tell us all this. I don't know how we let this slip by.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Ok lets take this slow so you dont get confused...

Why is Maata bad? AS/IN actual play and results not ... cant skate and cant pass and all this other broad stroke nonsense.

Because all statistical evidence points to him being at least quite competent if not just good. So even if you were right about all his flaws, its obvious that either you are ignoring all the things he does well or blowing those flaws out of proportion to how they actually effect hockey games.

BUT if you think, there is a chance that all of these stats are somehow missing why he is bad. Heres the chance to PROVE your case. I wont hold my breath.

I don't even know how to respond to this. I told you how he's bad and you just act like what I said weren't actual criticisms. As if my constant observation of Maatta doing (or failing at or not doing) those things repeatedly doesn't count toward legitimate criticism. Because well you don't like it.

 

[Jacob]

I think Maatta is a bad player who is riding his perceived potential and a lack of organizational depth. I mean plainly: he sucks. Can't skate. Can't position. Can't pass. Can't receive passes. Can't shoot. Doesn't hit much. Little intensity. Not a leadership personality. Easily rattled.

How do you compare each of these skillsets to Dumoulin's? Clearly he's a better skater than Maatta, but the rest?

 

[DanielPlainview]

I know, how did he manage to be a 1st rounder and make it to NHL with all these super glaring deficiencies in his game. It's a good thing you're here to tell us all this. I don't know how we let this slip by.

Meaningless. Poor attempt at apologetics.

 

[Shwag33]

Hainsey can't do anything better than Maatta.

 

[Shady Machine]

Incorrect. There is no opinion here. I see it, I say it. If people disagree, that is their problem. Like flat earthers.

oh boy.

 

[DanielPlainview]

How do you compare each of these skillsets to Dumoulin's? Clearly he's a better skater than Maatta, but the rest?

Just off the top of my head, I haven't been paying as much attention to him as I have some other players...I don't very often see Dumoulin muff easy passes or make errant passes but I wouldn't say he's a great mover of the puck, just better than Maatta. He doesn't shoot often but he seems to be less likely to strike someone in the stands when he does. He plays tougher; he's bigger and bring more physicality. His positioning is inconsistent but his better skating allows him to make up for it where Maatta usually cannot.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I don't even know how to respond to this. I told you how he's bad and you just act like what I said weren't actual criticisms. As if my constant observation of Maatta doing (or failing at or not doing) those things repeatedly doesn't count toward legitimate criticism. Because well you don't like it.

Wow. Ok. Wow.

See NOBODY cares what you think Olli Maata's speed and passing score on the next NHL game should be. Because that all the "analysis" you have provided. Even if we could come to a consensus on these "flaws" you still have not proved how they have negatively affected the Penguins on the ice compared to the "league average defense man".

Fact ... nobody agrees with you eye test that Olli Maata is bad at everything
Fact ... stats dont support your argument

So either your are grossly overrating his flaws or grossly underrating the things he does well. Sometimes the problem is just you.

 

[nbonaddio]

I don't hate Maatta, I just think he's not a good player and I base that on watching him play.

Stats are not reality in the way you want them to be here. And the only responses to my points have been a bunch of "nuh uh!" posts. I mean seriously, that's all this has been. It's ridiculous.

Maatta can't skate. He can't shoot. His passes are often poor and he often struggles to receive passes. He is often out of position. He plays with next to no intensity. These are the facts.

Literally none of what you said is a fact.

Facts are quantifiable and proven, not some opinions from some random dude on a message board. The only thing close to facts presented are the stats that others have pointed out that conveniently disagree with your qualitative narrative.

If that's the best you got, I suggest you stop being so sensitive. People don't necessarily disagree with your point as much as they disagree with the moronic way you're going about it, trying to convince everyone that your cursory opinions are the same as legitimate and detailed analysis, as if you're some amazing hockey mind whose broad strokes should be excused from scrutiny.

 

[Shady Machine]

Agree to disagree here. I've never in any sport been one to compare salaries because I feel there are variables that cause the market to really go one way or the other. Some franchises feel desperate, some feel they owe, some are afraid to let go of guys, etc. For instance there's a very likely scenario where some team grossly overpays Shattenkirk this year. According to market, if he gets 6.5 or 7 some may say that's average - but according to what that then takes away from your team in terms of cap hit it becomes an overpayment - because that team is overpaying for a specific service. Goalie tandems that total 10M'ish is an overpayment for that position.

- thoughts along those lines. So yeah agree to disagree.

If you don't use comparable players, how do you determine if a player is paid fairly or not? Is it simply based on your opinion?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Oh goody, it's going to be one of those days in this thread.

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't hate Maatta, I just think he's not a good player and I base that on watching him play.

Stats are not reality in the way you want them to be here. And the only responses to my points have been a bunch of "nuh uh!" posts. I mean seriously, that's all this has been. It's ridiculous.

Maatta can't skate. He can't shoot. His passes are often poor and he often struggles to receive passes. He is often out of position. He plays with next to no intensity. These are the facts.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fact

You are really confusing opinion with fact. My opinion based on watching him play is that he passes well, he's in good position most of the time, he has an adequate NHL shot, he's a very smart player, knows where to be when, great stick positioning.

Now, he's far from a perfect player. His top speed is okay, but his acceleration and pivot ability are below NHL average and because of that, he can get burned for chances when he's slightly out of position. I question whether he's the right long term fit for this team, but he's only 22 and if paired with a great skater, that could help limit those chances turning into goals.

The advanced stats tend to line up with my opinion. I won't claim that my opinion is fact. It's just my opinion, but I believe it's informed by statistical evidence.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Hainsey can't do anything better than Maatta.

Hainsey is better at ending up in the splits for no good reason

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fact

You are really confusing opinion with fact. My opinion based on watching him play is that he passes well, he's in good position most of the time, he has an adequate NHL shot, he's a very smart player, knows where to be when, great stick positioning.

Now, he's far from a perfect player. His top speed is okay, but his acceleration and pivot ability are below NHL average and because of that, he can get burned for chances when he's slightly out of position. I question whether he's the right long term fit for this team, but he's only 22 and if paired with a great skater, that could help limit those chances turning into goals.

The advanced stats tend to line up with my opinion. I won't claim that my opinion is fact. It's just my opinion, but I believe it's informed by statistical evidence.

 

[DanielPlainview]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fact

You are really confusing opinion with fact. My opinion based on watching him play is that he passes well, he's in good position most of the time, he has an adequate NHL shot, he's a very smart player, knows where to be when, great stick positioning.

Now, he's far from a perfect player. His top speed is okay, but his acceleration and pivot ability are below NHL average and because of that, he can get burned for chances when he's slightly out of position. I question whether he's the right long term fit for this team, but he's only 22 and if paired with a great skater, that could help limit those chances turning into goals.

The advanced stats tend to line up with my opinion. I won't claim that my opinion is fact. It's just my opinion, but I believe it's informed by statistical evidence.

No, I'm not confusing opinion with fact. An opinion isn't recounting what Maatta does on the ice. He shoots poorly. I've seen it over and over. Same with everything else I've said.

Stats are not reprentation of reality. They are simply tallies.