Salary Cap: Penguins future roster building (2017-18 and beyond) | Contract/FA charts in Post #1

[Coastal Kev]

You need to stop. As I've said numerous times already, observing a hockey player consistently and repeatedly miss his target means he is innaccurate. This is fact. You don't need the numbers and graphs to make it fact. That's ridiculous.

I agree with the bolded 100%. But I will also let you know what my hockey eyes have seen during these playoffs; Maata has been the Pens most consistent Dman hands down.

Outside of the Ryan play where he made a poor read, it wasn't his lack of speed, he has been solid and competitive.

If he works on his core strength and skating this offseason, he'll round out to a pretty good Dman. He has offense in his game, he needs to get back to pre-cancer Olli.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Its absolutely absurd that an adult doesnt know the difference between facts and opinion. FACTS are inarguable. Opinion isnt.

Player X scored 50 goals, is a fact.
Player X led the league in goals and goals per game is a fact.
Player X is a good goal scorer is an opinion. It is a opinion using factual evidence a support but it is an opinion none the less. Its is about as rock solid as opinion as one could have based on the facts but still an opinion.

Olli Maata sucks, is an opinion. Its is an opinion based on little fact. There has been to this point zero evidence other than (what i suspect highly biased and substantially flawed) observation. With ZERO attempt to no only portray how often these observations happen but also ZERO attempt to compare to (with statistics or observation) all the other players relevant to accurately form this conclusion.

Player X sucks, because i see it. Not only implies the person is accurately processing the information on said player but every other player they are being compared too.

And this specific example of Olli Maata is only using prettiness rather than effectiveness as the main criteria anyway.

 

[Penske]

If certain people here scratched Maatta in the Washington series (because he sucks ) we wouldn't be playing right now...........fact

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

You need to stop. As I've said numerous times already, observing a hockey player consistently and repeatedly miss his target means he is innaccurate. This is fact. You don't need the numbers and graphs to make it fact. That's ridiculous.

What constitutes consistently?

It makes that specific shot inaccurate. It doesnt make him inaccurate unless he missed more than everyone else.

You need to compare or you "observations" are meritless.

My observation: Babe Ruth had below average power. Ive seen him ground out consistently and repetitively.

 

[Peat]

I believe it's got to be a fractional type system where you allot variable percentages based on the style of your team. Not necessarily an exact science - but point being on a team with Sid and Geno, the majority of your money should be going to them + supporting their talents. If we were to have 20% into our offense in an offensive style system, and 80% wrapped up in defense I don't see how that makes any sense.

In Oli's case - what's a supporting defender worth to the Penguins? Maybe that guy is worth 6 to a team that MUST HAVE defense at all costs, or nothing to a team that already has defenders but just wants a luxury, etc. For the Pens system, does he bring anything to the table that any of our available or could-be available players does not- where he gets a premium monetary consideration? We're currently grasping at the bottom trying to fill holes because of unforeseen circumstances sure - but if you back up players that need to be backed up and assemble the system accordingly, then yes I think you can just about name your price per position. A point being, comparable is being a bit generic - comparible salaries for players can only really be compared if you're comparing similar teams, styles, etc.. i.e. a defense-first team might spend 16M on their top pairing, whereas it probably doesn't make sense for an offensive team to do so.

But how do you work out whether he's getting a premium monetary consideration without looking at other players in the NHL? I agree with looking at a player's value to his team to decide whether he's getting overpaid or not, but how do you decide value without looking at what else could be got for that money - and how do you decide what else could be got for the money without looking at comparable players?

As for Maatta's value to the Pens - right now 4m doesn't seem out of place for a guy who's statistically our best shut down defender and also producing a decent clip of offence assist wise. Particularly on a very young guy who should keep improving. Regular season it looked an overpayment but he's worth it right now. If you want to trade him, where does that 4m go? We have no one in the pipeline, I don't think there's anyone better in the UFA market to be had for comparable money. Is there a fair hockey deal to be made for a similar guy who's a better fit? Or to upgrade? I'd like that but maybe there isn't.

If anything, rating his value by value to us only makes him better value, because we have no prospects and a small pile of trade chips we'd like to use, and a hole at 3C to fill potentially before we get near defence.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

So who we getting? Duchene, Thornton, RNH?

 

[DanielPlainview]

Its absolutely absurd that an adult doesnt know the difference between facts and opinion. FACTS are inarguable. Opinion isnt.

Player X scored 50 goals, is a fact.
Player X led the league in goals and goals per game is a fact.
Player X is a good goal scorer is an opinion. It is a opinion using factual evidence a support but it is an opinion none the less. Its is about as rock solid as opinion as one could have based on the facts but still an opinion.

Olli Maata sucks, is an opinion. Its is an opinion based on little fact. There has been to this point zero evidence other than (what i suspect highly biased and substantially flawed) observation. With ZERO attempt to no only portray how often these observations happen but also ZERO attempt to compare to (with statistics or observation) all the other players relevant to accurately form this conclusion.

Player X sucks, because i see it. Not only implies the person is accurately processing the information on said player but every other player they are being compared too.

And this specific example of Olli Maata is only using prettiness rather than effectiveness as the main criteria anyway.

Once more: observation is not opinion. Somehow you have managed to believe that only that which has been measured and labeled in detail is fact. That is not correct much of reality is not measureable. How do you measure intensity? Toughness? Leadership? You must rely on your observations to make the assessment.

This has nothing to do with prettiness, but only effectiveness. Maatta's passes are inaccurate. His shots are too. He is slow. His positioning often leaves him at a disadvantage. Etc. All observation. The problem here is you simply do not like what I have to say. I don't care.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yes, I did. I said numerous times those things were based on my observations. Keeping record doesn't have any bearing on it.

Yes it does when everyone else here disagrees with your eyes.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Once more: obaervation is not opinion. Somehow you have manages to believe that onlt that which has been measured and labeled in detail is fact. This is foolish. And it's why you have lost this discussion.

When you add opinion to the observation it is.

Maata misses net is an observation and fact.

Implying he in an inaccurate shooter is an opinion.

You not understanding this is beyond my comprehension. Because i believe you to be more than 5 years old.

My steak was cooked...fact (Observation)
My steak was cooked poorly...opinion
My steak was not cooked to order...opinion (based on multiple assumptions)
The cook sucks at cooking steak...opinion

 

[Shady Machine]

Its absolutely absurd that an adult doesnt know the difference between facts and opinion. FACTS are inarguable. Opinion isnt.

Player X scored 50 goals, is a fact.
Player X led the league in goals and goals per game is a fact.
Player X is a good goal scorer is an opinion. It is a opinion using factual evidence a support but it is an opinion none the less. Its is about as rock solid as opinion as one could have based on the facts but still an opinion.

Olli Maata sucks, is an opinion. Its is an opinion based on little fact. There has been to this point zero evidence other than (what i suspect highly biased and substantially flawed) observation. With ZERO attempt to no only portray how often these observations happen but also ZERO attempt to compare to (with statistics or observation) all the other players relevant to accurately form this conclusion.

Player X sucks, because i see it. Not only implies the person is accurately processing the information on said player but every other player they are being compared too.

And this specific example of Olli Maata is only using prettiness rather than effectiveness as the main criteria anyway.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Edit: When fully healthy we have the most complimenting defense towards team style that we maybe have ever had. (Sorry coffee not kicking in yet)

Problem is we can only count on Letang being healthy for 50-65 games at the most, and there's absolutely no way to guess when those games are.

When I talk about shoring up the blueline, I'm talking about how we should have something similar to our forward group - where we can 'afford' to lose about 2 maybe 3 guys on average (which is average for the Pens for whatever reason) and still function in the same style. If we lose 2 or 3 defensemen, our entire structure changes. I wouldn't go nuts over it, but I'd like to see a legitimate 'replacement' for Letang where we can still have Schultz as our PPQB and comfortable on the 2nd pairing. Nobody can comfortably step in for Letang when he's out. This idea will certainly come at a price. Shattenkirk to me looks like a replacement to Schultz as he couldn't carry Tanger's jock on the defensive end...and he'd be pricey replacement/insurance for Schultz. Don't know if that's really worth it.

There is just no reasonable way we are going to build the defense to cover up for an injured Letang. It will cost too much money.

 

[molon labe]

But how do you work out whether he's getting a premium monetary consideration without looking at other players in the NHL? I agree with looking at a player's value to his team to decide whether he's getting overpaid or not, but how do you decide value without looking at what else could be got for that money - and how do you decide what else could be got for the money without looking at comparable players?

As for Maatta's value to the Pens - right now 4m doesn't seem out of place for a guy who's statistically our best shut down defender and also producing a decent clip of offence assist wise. Particularly on a very young guy who should keep improving. Regular season it looked an overpayment but he's worth it right now. If you want to trade him, where does that 4m go? We have no one in the pipeline, I don't think there's anyone better in the UFA market to be had for comparable money. Is there a fair hockey deal to be made for a similar guy who's a better fit? Or to upgrade? I'd like that but maybe there isn't.

If anything, rating his value by value to us only makes him better value, because we have no prospects and a small pile of trade chips we'd like to use, and a hole at 3C to fill potentially before we get near defence.

Totally agree. It's a hindsight type of thing - sorta. So many of us on here (and probably elsewhere) really wanted a hockey trade for him in the past it just never happened. Right now you look at the salaries of Maatta and MAF and liken every penny of it. Prior to the season starting - could that 10M combined (14 if you find a way to move Kunitz) be utilized to severely upgrade the D to where right now we're finding something else to criticize? Hell I don't know...I'd hope that we shopped around for D last year knowing Lovejoy was leaving and our depth was pretty shallow there, but nobody outside of the front office knows that to be sure.

I think his 4M going forward really depends on whether he improves or not. Right now our team is built around team defense and run and gun offense. If you load up the pipeline with O-talent to be certain of insurance and just-in-cases, then you feel good moving forward. For the D side of the house, we have to square with ourselves on how we view each pairing, their weight to the team, and what their real abilities are. Does he do anything for 4M that someone else couldn't for ELC or 2-2.5? I think that's where like you and others have said you have to see what contracts people are on and I do agree with it to a point. I think my point was more in line with the fact that I do not believe the Pens need to spend league-average on middle pairing defenders because our identity is not that of league-average. How do we get around that? Probably through finding outcasts (Daley) or drafting. Do we spend league-average+ on wings? I believe that we should, yes. Having guys like Hornqvist + Hags at 8M against is a luxury when comparing them to true scoring wingers...but that luxury is part of the Pens identity. Sort of an inverse way of putting it.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm not getting into this whole debate again, but I am just going to say it flatly: If you think Maatta is a bad hockey player, you don't know what you are talking about. If you think he's slightly overpaid, I get that. I disagree, but I get it. He's not a superstar, but if you think he's a legitimately bad NHL player, you are wrong. It's really that simple.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

$4 million is really not that bad for a middle of the road defenseman. Other teams have gotten burnt way worse with other players. Plus we were paying somewhat for potential when Maatta signed that deal. Just the way it goes and we can only hope he fulfills that potential. Right now its his lack of upside that's questionable, but it was and still isn't a bad deal.

 

[TotesTorts]

Entertaining thread. From an outsider, making his own *gasp* observation, I wouldn't want Maatta on the CBJ. He comes off as soft to me. Has he ever fought anyone or really gone on a good hitting tear? Meh. If you're going to be that gimpy, at least bring some hurt.

 

[The Indestructible]

The more I think about it the more I like going after Del Zotto. I think he'd be a good fit for our system and would not be too expensive.

 

[Shady Machine]

Entertaining thread. From an outsider, making his own *gasp* observation, I wouldn't want Maatta on the CBJ. He comes off as soft to me. Has he ever fought anyone or really gone on a good hitting tear? Meh. If you're going to be that gimpy, at least bring some hurt.

Solid first post.

Why does a Dman have to be a bruiser to be effective?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Entertaining thread. From an outsider, making his own *gasp* observation, I wouldn't want Maatta on the CBJ. He comes off as soft to me. Has he ever fought anyone or really gone on a good hitting tear? Meh. If you're going to be that gimpy, at least bring some hurt.

He certainly wouldn't fit in a Torts coached team. And he wouldn't belong in the Jackets top 4 for sure. But that's more because you guys are stacked there.

That said, I am thrilled that we are not a Torts coached team. Hitting isn't nearly as important as he thinks it is. And I hope Maatta never ever gets in a fight. No reason for him to ever do it.

 

[SEALBound]

SO glad this thread is at 40pages. Hopefully the next one will be void of these nonsensical arguments.

Bunch of interesting names that are out there. This ED has really thrown a wrench into a lot of things. I have no clue what will happen, who is available on any team, and how teams want to move forward.

Still think the focus should be on defense though. I say bring in a solid top 4 and a reclamation project.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

OPINION

noun
1.
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

 

[DegenX]

New thread is here