Post-Game Talk: Penguins/Flyers - Plus, Minus, Defense, & Fleury

[zero8771]

Do you feel comfortable with Fleury as the starting goaltender in the playoffs? I like Fleury as a human being and a teammate for the Pens, but I certainly don't trust him to stop pucks and increase their odds of winning in April.

I think many are in that same boat now, the amount of evidence is too hard to ignore.

Right now? No.

But I could be by the time they roll around. If he is calmer and the team in front of him is a lot more solid defensively I'll feel fine with our chances with him.

 

[SUBdrewgANS]

How hard is it for Letang to not pass into someones skates? I think this should be something they have him work on repeatedly.. I saw at least 3 times last night he gave a pass right to someones skates.

 

[penguins2946*]

How hard is it for Letang to not pass into someones skates? I think this should be something they have him work on repeatedly.. I saw at least 3 times last night he gave a pass right to someones skates.

I would rather him pass it into their skates than to miss completely or to pass it so soft that it doesn't even reach the target. He's been guilty of all 3 a lot this year.

 

[billybudd]

"As long as I'm GM here, he's my goalie," Rutherford told ESPN.com

That seems like quite a definitive statement to me. We basically have to say JR is lying then.

There is always a chance he is gone if he ***** the bed again.

My contention is with the people around here who think MAF will be beaten out this season, barring injury. When has that ever happened since the guy has been here? He has always been their starting goalie in day 1 of the playoffs.

I need someone to tell me how this will change. Not because they want it to happen, but actual facts that lead to this type of conclusion.

For what ever it's worth, Madden and DK (the latter, I think was on the conference call) are convinced JR was lying.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

One last thing about Fleury for those defending him with the rationale "he's not the only reason we lost, why is he getting the most flak?":

A big part of that is because of the position he plays. If defense is lousy, there's 6 guys who can be blamed. If the offense isn't scoring, there's 12 guys who can be blamed. But if the goaltending is suspect, only one guy gets the blame.

Any of the other positions, other players can step up if one guy is struggling. If Letang's playing horribly, there's 5 other guys who can be leaned on to pick up the slack. If Kunitz is sleep walking through a game, 11 other guys can hopefully produce. But if Fleury is flopping around, there is nobody who can pick up the slack because he plays the one position who plays the entire 60 minutes.

If Fleury's getting more blame than anyone else, it's partly because of the position he plays. Other guys can be insulated or their struggles hidden by others picking up their slack. Fleury doesn't have that luxury.

 

[penguins2946*]

For what ever it's worth, Madden and DK (the latter, I think was on the conference call) are convinced JR was lying.

I'm pretty sure it was lip service, just like JR saying there was a backup competition. I really think (hope) it was just lip service to give Fleury some confidence. When they were talking about this in between the 1st and 2nd period on NBC, Millbury actually made a good point in that he said something along the lines of "Fleury is 30 years old at this point, he must have thin skin if JR needs to say this".

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I don't want to attack you personally, but I will say that more than Malkin at wing (which I can at least understand because of his lack of fitness, our depth at C and our lack of top6 wingers), I lose faith in everyone who cannot comprehend that Dupuis can play with basically anyone on our team, except for Malkin. Dupuis will play the same way regardless who he is with, and Malkin plays a fundamentally different game and asks fundamentally different things of his linemates than what Dupuis can honor.

Seriously, I challenge anyone to remember when Dupuis last made a play to set up Malkin or where they looked in tune. Sure, Malkin will always set someone up and Dupuis had a goal in the opener from that, and got rewarded from going to the net tonight. But Geno winning a faceoff and Dupuis deflecting a shot in after that says nothing about chemistry. They don't have it. They NEVER did. They never will.

Play Duper with Sutter where the fit is natural - or play him with Sid which has always worked well enough in the regular season to be at least passable in a situation where we are devoid of wing options for Geno.

Fully agree with this post. I dislike Malkin at wing, but I dislike a Dupuis-Malkin line even more.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

That actually is a good point. This is Murray's time to shine. Zatkoff is out for I would guess 4-6 weeks (it looked like an MCL sprain, and that's how long I was out for both of mine). If Murray can show he's a capable starter in the AHL and if he impresses enough, the Pens may feel more comfortable with letting Fleury go and running with a mentor #1 and Murray combo next year.

I doubt we'd go with a mentor #1 + Murray next year. Teams very very rarely give the backup job to a kid after only one season in the AHL. Especially when the kid plays his first AHL season as a backup. There would likely be far better options for us. Like a 50/50 split between two guys, or a mentor + someone with a bit more AHL experience who's stuck in another organization. Jean-Francois Berube in Manchester comes to mind. Philipp Grubauer in Hershey. Malcolm Subban in Providence. Etc.

And this is coming from a guy who is constantly pushing for 18 and 19 year olds to stick on our roster. But goalies are different. Even I have little desire to see a raw kid as our backup next season. I'd rather call Brodeur or Thomas, tbh.

Right now? No.

But I could be by the time they roll around. If he is calmer and the team in front of him is a lot more solid defensively I'll feel fine with our chances with him.

We're only going to get a little tighter defensively. Not a whole lot more, imo. We have a bunch of offensive-minded types back there. They want them to join the rush and be very aggressive. If Bortuzzo can play regularly, he'll help some of our front-of-the-net issues and provide some stability back there, but beyond that we're never going to play like the Kings along the blueline.

We need a goalie who won't continuously poop his pants when the pressure is on.

 

[radapex]

I'm pretty sure it was lip service, just like JR saying there was a backup competition. I really think (hope) it was just lip service to give Fleury some confidence. When they were talking about this in between the 1st and 2nd period on NBC, Millbury actually made a good point in that he said something along the lines of "Fleury is 30 years old at this point, he must have thin skin if JR needs to say this".

The type that internalizes pressure and puts intense blame on themselves always have a thin skin. You're constantly doubting yourself, blame yourself for everything, and rely on others to pick you up and boost your confidence.

Brent Johnson said he's never seen a goalie, at any level, blame themselves as much for every goal against as Fleury does. He completely beats himself up over every puck that gets by him, whether it's his fault or not.

It's a bad enough mentality when you're just playing rec/house league sports... I couldn't imagine trying to play professionally with it. When you're constantly doubting yourself, any piece of criticism from those around you is a major blow.

 

[billybudd]

-4 for mr. Brandon Sutter impressive stuff indeed!

I thought Sutter was crap. Looked like the Sutter I despise for the first time since the trade deadline.

But none of those were on him. He was just out for a skate in the neutral and offensive zone, but when it came to not causing chances against, he more or less did his job.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm not disagreeing with your premise. I'm just curious if you can list some options that could be available to us?

The way I look at it, we will likely end up with worse goaltending on average if we move on from Fleury. But the worst nights probably wouldn't be as bad, and we'd have more money to build the rest of the team.

There are going to be goalies available. Goalies who regress and put out to pasture this season. Goalies to excel this season and are too good to keep as a backup. It's a constantly changing scene. I know people NEED to know who is going to be in the crease 60+ times next year or else they kinda flip out, but I'm not concerned at all...unless, that is, we continue to support the one guy who can't get it done.

Anaheim is one of the best teams in the NHL, and they don't really know who their No. 1 goaltender is. St. Louis is more or less in the same boat. There are goaltending controversies sure to come to a boil at some point.

Let the season play out. There will be options for us.

By who? There aren't many teams looking to add a goalies this year imo. Edmonton and Buffalo will be the most interested in him other than us. We should have pretty good leverage in negotiations to keep the contract reasonable. If its not, let him walk. We shouldn't give him the contract he probably wants. On that, we agree.

Who knows what will happen. The playoffs often determine player movement and organizational decisions, especially when it comes to the goaltending position.

I can virtually guarantee you that there will be more than 3 teams (Pit, Edm, Buf) in on Fleury next summer. His reputation far exceeds his play.

 

[cajal]

We need a goalie who won't continuously poop his pants when the pressure is on.

I don't think Fleury is capable of that. If we win, we have to win in spite of him, like we have for quite some time now.

It's really a shame too. Many of us (I assume) have liked this guy for a long time, and he was that #1 pick that signaled the end of the mini-dark age of Pens hockey at the turn of the century. His career in Pittsburgh should have been over already, let's hope that the recent quotes regarding his future are simply hot air.

 

[mpp9]

I think you take it to the extreme Jag. Anaheim and St. Louis are both question marks as contenders for a few reasons. One of them being goaltending. Anaheim got clowned in game 7 vs LA last year. And the Blues get owned by LA b/c of Quick. I don't think they're good examples.

I think we should be on the lookout for someone like Crawford. Hardly an all star, but good enough to get it done. I think there are many goalies in this league who could have won a Cup behind that Chicago team in 2013. Maybe Greiss is that guy.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I do think JR is lying, i think JR and MJ say all these positive things about MAF because the guy is so fragile, they want to boost his confidence.

You keep up bringing up the past how MAF has always been the starter, that means nothing now, were in a new era of penguin hockey, JR and MJ are now the boss.


Look at what JR did last year with the Canes, he signed a good backup in Khudobin, he played well with the canes and eventually ended up playing more games and ended up being there starter, i definitly think something similar can happen here with Greiss.

I have all the confidence in the world that if MAF struggles and Greiss outplays him that Greiss will start to get more games in net, i think that's the reason they signed Greiss.

I think JR has been caught out being full of ****, dude likes to talk and the team appears very media friendly with him even if you're stuck trying to figure out what was true. It's probably true, god forbid Fleury not be treated like an elite goalie with a great history and a child.

I hope he plays his way out of town for the team's good.

It is always possible JR is lying, but he could have made the statement I quoted without adding "As long as I'm the GM here..."

The statement without that sentence still showed his confidence in MAF and JR has been around long enough to choose his words carefully. If he moves on from MAF this season, those words hurt his credibility and make him look like a liar in front of his players and the public as well.

It's just seems like a really stupid thing to say and there was no need for him to even say it if it's a lie.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think you take it to the extreme Jag. Anaheim and St. Louis are both question marks as contenders for a few reasons. One of them being goaltending. Anaheim got clowned in game 7 vs LA last year. And the Blues get owned by LA b/c of Quick. I don't think they're good examples.

I think we should be on the lookout for someone like Crawford. Hardly an all star, but good enough to get it done. I think there are many goalies in this league who could have won a Cup behind that Chicago team in 2013. Maybe Greiss is that guy.

Well we get owned and we have Fleury so I don't see how he is necessarily wrong. St Louis went out and got the goalie in Miller and didn't do any better. His point about not having to know right now who our goalie would be next season is spot on. There will be guys available. I'm just tired of hitching out wagon to Fleury just because we are afraid we can't replace him. He's been mostly disappointing when it counts. Why should we make it a priority to hang onto a guy like that?

 

[MtlPenFan]

There are going to be goalies available. Goalies who regress and put out to pasture this season. Goalies to excel this season and are too good to keep as a backup. It's a constantly changing scene. I know people NEED to know who is going to be in the crease 60+ times next year or else they kinda flip out, but I'm not concerned at all...unless, that is, we continue to support the one guy who can't get it done.

Anaheim is one of the best teams in the NHL, and they don't really know who their No. 1 goaltender is. St. Louis is more or less in the same boat. There are goaltending controversies sure to come to a boil at some point.

Let the season play out. There will be options for us.




Who knows what will happen. The playoffs often determine player movement and organizational decisions, especially when it comes to the goaltending position.

I can virtually guarantee you that there will be more than 3 teams (Pit, Edm, Buf) in on Fleury next summer. His reputation far exceeds his play.

I think any team that trades for MAF at the deadline in the hopes of getting them over the hump is in for an infinite amount of ridicule. Based on that alone nobody would do it.

 

[Shrimper]

So annoyed about the result last night, what I've come to expect from the Pens though. Should bounce back against the Red Wings tonight.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I think you take it to the extreme Jag. Anaheim and St. Louis are both question marks as contenders for a few reasons. One of them being goaltending. Anaheim got clowned in game 7 vs LA last year. And the Blues get owned by LA b/c of Quick. I don't think they're good examples.

I think we should be on the lookout for someone like Crawford. Hardly an all star, but good enough to get it done. I think there are many goalies in this league who could have won a Cup behind that Chicago team in 2013. Maybe Greiss is that guy.

I agree.

It is always possible JR is lying, but he could have made the statement I quoted without adding "As long as I'm the GM here..."

The statement without that sentence still showed his confidence in MAF and JR has been around long enough to choose his words carefully. If he moves on from MAF this season, those words hurt his credibility and make him look like a liar in front of his players and the public as well.

It's just seems like a really stupid thing to say and there was no need for him to even say it if it's a lie.

'As long as I'm the GM' only sounds like a big statement, but I think everybody here assumes JR won't be around for more than 2-3 seasons (at most).

What that statement suggests perhaps is that Fleury isn't getting anything more than a 1-2 year offer from Rutherford.

I think any team that trades for MAF at the deadline in the hopes of getting them over the hump is in for an infinite amount of ridicule. Based on that alone nobody would do it.

I think we were talking about the off-season. At least, I was.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Why do you care if people overreact about Fleury? The truth is, the guy isn't an elite goalie but is being paid like one.

Fleury has had it incredibly easy in Pittsburgh. Best friends with the captain and best player in hockey. Fans love him despite his atrocious playoff performances. Treated like a man child b/c he's too mentally weak to deal with pressure for his job.

Because this place becomes a MAF hate circle-jerk, which unbearable to read.

 

[JimsDoors]

So annoyed about the result last night, what I've come to expect from the Pens though. Should bounce back against the Red Wings tonight.

Just an all around pathetic performance against a **** team who just played the night before. No excuse whatsoever

 

[NastyNick]

Because this place becomes a MAF hate circle-jerk, which unbearable to read.

Theres a Geno hate circle-jerk on the radio right now. Maybe you would enjoy that more?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Geno vs the Isles was the best individual performance on the team so far this year. People are stupid.

 

[Greeneye]

This team is going nowhere with MAF as their #1. I don't see how anyone can support him after the years of sub par play. He can't even be trusted to stop a dump in for his defenseman. Great guy though, I wish him the best.

 

[Shady Machine]

Theres a Geno hate circle-jerk on the radio right now. Maybe you would enjoy that more?

Is it Madden?

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

You mean when Paul Martin got his stick on the puck and blocked the shot?

Martin actually tipped the shot over MAF's pad making it a much harder blocker save instead of a pad save. Good try though.