Post-Game Talk: Penguins 4, Lightning 2 - Punching A Faux Bully In The Mouth

[2wayPlay]

Huge bounce back W. It’s amazing how we play up or down to our competition. Ottawa tomorrow not good!

 

[Tom Hanks]

If you go by the eye test, Simon disappears for long stretches. He'll have a game or two where he scores a goal or makes a nice pass to set up a goal like last night, then for the next several games he's invisible. But everyone will cling to that one moment to justify his usage in the top 6. Many of you have done the same with guys like Archibald and Scott Wilson, which is why there's still angst among those that JR traded them.

Simon gets an ES point in 38% of his games. If you want to compare that with someone else say Kessel he scores an ES point in 46% of his games (while playing more).

I’ve posted the stats the chances L1 create are the best on the team when Simon is there. It’s his first full season and to put up a 42 point pace (38 ES) is ridiculously good especially averaging 13:14 minutes per night. He’s also making 750k for the season.

You should be praising him not trying to tear him down. Archie and Wilson haven’t done what he has. Simon is a smart, skilled player who’s producing with limited minutes on a cheap contract and our captain loves playing with him.

 

[Shockmaster]

What exactly do you expect from Simon? 21 points, +8, a little over 13 TOI/G is pretty good, if you ask me. Yes, it would be great if he were a better finisher but the guy is a fifth round pick, after all. Comparing him and Rust with Bylsma's pets (I assume you mean Adams, Glass and the likes) is not something I can agree with because they actually produce, albeit rather inconsistently.

I expect the coaches to play their best wings in the top 6, not guys who are as inconsistent at scoring as Rust and especially Simon. If you want to go back a bit further, I would also expect the coach to not start the latter on the top line in an elimination game in the playoffs when he took a horrible penalty the game before. If that doesn't lend itself to the definition of a teacher's pet, I'm not sure what does.

Rust wasn't scratched when he was struggling... and then had a stretch when he was on fire, so why exactly should he have been scratched again?

I think you answered your own question. I'm not suggesting retroactively benching Rust for his struggles from October to December. At the time though, it was pretty ridiculous that Sullivan didn't at least give Sprong a shot in the top 9 over him or even sit him for a few games. Rust helped them win two Cups, but he's not good enough to not be benched when he's playing as poorly as he did in the first half.

 

[Shockmaster]

Simon gets an ES point in 38% of his games. If you want to compare that with someone else say Kessel he scores an ES point in 46% of his games (while playing more).

I’ve posted the stats the chances L1 create are the best on the team when Simon is there. It’s his first full season and to put up a 42 point pace (38 ES) is ridiculously good especially averaging 13:14 minutes per night. He’s also making 750k for the season.

You should be praising him not trying to tear him down. Archie and Wilson haven’t done what he has. Simon is a smart, skilled player who’s producing with limited minutes on a cheap contract and our captain loves playing with him.

If that's the case, why does he usually at some point get removed (however reluctantly by the coaches I'm sure) from the top line if that line is supposedly at "its best" with him on it? Perhaps at some point just generating chances (however subjective that stat is) isn't good enough if you aren't capitalizing on enough of them.

 

[Gurglesons]

If that's the case, why does he usually at some point get removed (however reluctantly by the coaches I'm sure) from the top line if that line is supposedly at "its best" with him on it? Perhaps at some point just generating chances (however subjective that stat is) isn't good enough if you aren't capitalizing on enough of them.

Because he’s a rookie and he’s going to be inconsistent? He’s on pace for 42 points.. how is that not producing!

 

[Icarium]

I expect the coaches to play their best wings in the top 6, not guys who are as inconsistent at scoring as Rust and especially Simon.

I hate to break it to you but we don't have four wingers better than Simon and Rust. Hornqvist is coming off an injury and had not looked particularly good in the previous two games, so he was used on the third line as a sort of shut down line. And shock and horror, it worked.

If you want to go back a bit further, I would also expect the coach to not start the latter on the top line in an elimination game in the playoffs when he took a horrible penalty the game before. If that doesn't lend itself to the definition of a teacher's pet, I'm not sure what does.

The whole team (with few exceptions in some of the games) played badly in that particular series (I am assuming you mean the Caps series last year), but please feel free to focus on Simon taking a bad penalty as if nobody else has ever done that.

At the time though, it was pretty ridiculous that Sullivan didn't at least give Sprong a shot in the top 9 over him or even sit him for a few games.

Ah, finally an explanation. This is about Sprong after all. For all we know Rust might have reacted badly to being benched and continued his cold streak to this very day. Complaining about it right now is odd, to say the least. Same for complaining about Simon after he stole the puck and passed to Sid for a tap-in which was the game-winning goal.

If that's the case, why does he usually at some point get removed (however reluctantly by the coaches I'm sure) from the top line if that line is supposedly at "its best" with him on it?

Why has been Kessel removed from Malkin's line quite a few times or Horny from Sid's line? I guess they suck too? Sullivan likes changing his lines often, this in itself is hardly an indictment on any individual player.

 

[Tom Hanks]

If that's the case, why does he usually at some point get removed (however reluctantly by the coaches I'm sure) from the top line if that line is supposedly at "its best" with him on it? Perhaps at some point just generating chances (however subjective that stat is) isn't good enough if you aren't capitalizing on enough of them.

His minutes are increasing though. He’s a rookie and they are doing it the right way. Start him lower and increase it and see how he handles it.

They are capitalising more goals percentage wise when Simon is there though.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Guentzel-Crosby-Simon should be the permanent L1 imo. Ride em until they go cold. Really like Simon in that spot.

I expect the coaches to play their best wings in the top 6, not guys who are as inconsistent at scoring as Rust and especially Simon.

Simon had a rough stretch in December coming off injury. Since the new year though, he’s been pretty consistent— 8 points (7 EV) in 11 games. He’s only failed to register a point in 4 of those 11 games. With his average TOI and minuscule PP time, that’s damn good. Not to mention he’s doing it for dirt cheap.

 

[Shockmaster]

I hate to break it to you but we don't have four wingers better than Simon and Rust. Hornqvist is coming off an injury and had not looked particularly good in the previous two games, so he was used on the third line as a sort of shut down line. And shock and horror, it worked.

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Pearson-Malkin-Kessel

If Pearson is the worst player of that bunch and is used as a "3rd wheel" on that line, that's a pretty good top 6.

The whole team (with few exceptions in some of the games) played badly in that particular series (I am assuming you mean the Caps series last year), but please feel free to focus on Simon taking a bad penalty as if nobody else has ever done that.

So that justified taking Hornqvist off the top line and thus breaking up the only line that was any good?

Ah, finally an explanation. This is about Sprong after all. For all we know Rust might have reacted badly to being benched and continued his cold streak to this very day. Complaining about it right now is odd, to say the least.

Who cares how Rust would feel? He isn't a star player. Are you implying he's at the same level as Malkin?

Same for complaining about Simon after he stole the puck and passed to Sid for a tap-in which was the game-winning goal.

You're proving my earlier point. Simon makes a nice play or two and everyone declares he's a top-liner, but when he disappears for long stretches no one wants to think "hmm, maybe this guy isn't cut out for the top line."

Why has been Kessel removed from Malkin's line quite a few times or Horny from Sid's line? I guess they suck too? Sullivan likes changing his lines often, this in itself is hardly an indictment on any individual player.

That's an easy answer - because the coaches are infatuated with achieving the "balance" from 2016 despite a) that's not how they won in 2017, and b) when they tried to go back to it in 2018 against Washington, it blew up in their faces. Not to mention Crosby inexplicably hates playing with Hornqvist, but would still take a way-past-his-prime Kunitz.

 

[EightyOne]

Amateur fan's eye test vs. professionally collected data? Tough choice.

Easy now.
It's an online discussion board. We're all gonna say stuff.

If all we had to do was watch stats there'd be no reason to log in.

 

[Shockmaster]

Easy now.
It's an online discussion board. We're all gonna say stuff.

If all we had to do was watch stats there'd be no reason to log in.

Nah, there would still be the cherry-picking of certain stats and over-reliance on questionable "advanced stats."

 

[Icarium]

If Pearson is the worst player of that bunch and is used as a "3rd wheel" on that line, that's a pretty good top 6.

I like Pearson but he isn't better than Rust, especially on a team which likes attacking with speed like the Pens do. And Simon is a much better playmaker than him.

Who cares how Rust would feel? He isn't a star player.

If him sulking would result in playing worse... all Pens fans should care. Since when is scratching a player a sure way to stop cold streaks anyway?

You're proving my earlier point. Simon makes a nice play or two and everyone declares he's a top-liner,

Nobody is "declaring" him a top-liner, all we are saying is that he isn't nearly as bad as you claim.

That's an easy answer - because the coaches are infatuated with achieving the "balance" from 2016

Ah, yes, you know better than the coaches, of course. Thanks for enlightening us!

 

[Andy99]

Huge bounce back W. It’s amazing how we play up or down to our competition. Ottawa tomorrow not good!

Our only advantage is they, like Tampa, are coming off their long layover...hopefully we can get on top of them before they get their timing back

 

[Shockmaster]

I like Pearson but he isn't better than Rust, especially on a team which likes attacking with speed like the Pens do. And Simon is a much better playmaker than him.

While Rust isn't a disaster on the LW, he's better on the right and shouldn't be shoehorned into the spot especially when Pearson would be a better complimentary player to Malkin and Kessel.

As for Simon, he's not exactly Marty St. Louis as some like to make him out to be. Regardless, Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, and even Guentzel are enough as far as the playmakers are concerned. A good top 6 has a couple of blunt weapons on it.

If him sulking would result in playing worse... all Pens fans should care. Since when is scratching a player a sure way to stop cold streaks anyway?

If a player the caliber of Rust sulks and gets the boo-boo face because he gets scratched for playing very poorly, then the fans would be much more likely to turn against that player and want him out.

Nobody is "declaring" him a top-liner, all we are saying is that he isn't nearly as bad as you claim.

Nobody is declaring him a top-liner? You might need to re-read some of the posts above.

I think Simon is just a 3rd-liner at best. If he was suddenly traded or waived I don't think it would impact the team at all.

Ah, yes, you know better than the coaches, of course. Thanks for enlightening us!

Well, the approach with a "balanced" line-up is 1 for 3. Perhaps the HBK phenomenon was a fluke that will never be replicated, because so far it hasn't.

 

[Icarium]

As for Simon, he's not exactly Marty St. Louis as some like to make him out to be.

Congratulations, you won the argument against this hilarious strawman. In other news, Gretzky is also a better passer than Simon, you got me there.

If a player the caliber of Rust sulks and gets the boo-boo face because he gets scratched for playing very poorly, then the fans would be much more likely to turn against that player and want him out.

And that's relevant to the likelihood of scratching him having a positive or negative effect on his game how exactly? Who says the fans would even know if he sulked or not? All I am saying is that Sullivan's approach of not scratching Rust clearly worked. You are indulging in rather absurd speculation.

I think Simon is just a 3rd-liner at best. If he was suddenly traded or waived I don't think it would impact the team at all.

Yes, waiving players on an ELC who produce is the road to greatness, you convinced me.

While Rust isn't a disaster on the LW, he's better on the right and shouldn't be shoehorned into the spot especially when Pearson would be a better complimentary player to Malkin and Kessel.

Rust has been pretty good with Malkin and Kessel in the past, why don't we wait and see if it works out this time? Pearson's best game with Malkin was against the Ducks, by the way, with, gasp, that awful Simon on the other wing.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Guentzel-Crosby-Simon should be the permanent L1 imo. Ride em until they go cold. Really like Simon in that spot.



Simon had a rough stretch in December coming off injury. Since the new year though, he’s been pretty consistent— 8 points (7 EV) in 11 games. He’s only failed to register a point in 4 of those 11 games. With his average TOI and minuscule PP time, that’s damn good. Not to mention he’s doing it for dirt cheap.

Good post. Simon is a good passer, good along the boards driving possession and defensively responsible. Those three factors make him a match for Crosby.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Nah, there would still be the cherry-picking of certain stats and over-reliance on questionable "advanced stats."

Simon's stats are rather good across the board, but feel free to cite any that say otherwise? So far those appear to be:

1. Disappearances/60
2. EyeTestFail%
3. iMartinStLouisF

 

[Shockmaster]

Congratulations, you won the argument against this hilarious strawman. In other news, Gretzky is also a better passer than Simon, you got me there.

Careful, some people here might actually believe that.

And that's relevant to the likelihood of scratching him having a positive or negative effect on his game how exactly? Who says the fans would even know if he sulked or not? All I am saying is that Sullivan's approach of not scratching Rust clearly worked. You are indulging in rather absurd speculation.

You did, as you said fans should care if he's sulking. No fan would support a 3rd line caliber player sulking for rightfully getting scratched a few games.

And because Sullivan got away with it once doesn't mean it would be the right thing to do should Rust or other depth players struggle. Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang, Murray, and Dumoulin are the guys you never scratch (even Dumoulin is fringe on that list, but he's just too good with Letang). Anyone else is fair game if they play as poorly as Rust did the first half.

Yes, waiving players on an ELC who produce is the road to greatness, you convinced me.

That's what a lot of us thought of Brian Gibbons and Jayson Megna one time too.

Rust has been pretty good with Malkin and Kessel in the past, why don't we wait and see if it works out this time? Pearson's best game with Malkin was against the Ducks, by the way, with, gasp, that awful Simon on the other wing.

I'm less inclined to being that Rust would be a better fit as a 3rd line RW than a 2nd line LW.


Since you didn't reply to it, I take it you agree with my previous post that the desire to chase "balance" in the line combinations has failed after 2016.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You don't need advanced stats to say Simon is doing well this year, him being on pace for 15 goals and 40 points with 90% of that being ES production says he's doing well. But yes, the eye test overrides the fact that Simon is producing like a top-6 forward this year, yep.

Jesus, did Simon run over your dog or something? How much you hate him is comical, and it has been this way literally since he came to the NHL. What is your problem with Simon? You're either his ex-girlfriend or he ran over your dog, because there isn't a shred of logic behind your hatred of him.

 

[Shockmaster]

Simon's stats are rather good across the board, but feel free to cite any that say otherwise? So far those appear to be:

1. Disappearances/60
2. EyeTestFail%
3. iMartinStLouisF

Those make just about as much sense as most so called "advanced stats" people like to throw out only when it suits their argument.

 

[Icarium]

You did, as you said fans should care if he's sulking.

No, I said they should care if he is sulking and this negatively affects his game. Nice try, though.

That's what a lot of us thought of Brian Gibbons and Jayson Megna one time too.

Nobody has ever considered Gibbons a creative player. People liked him and Megna because they weren't Adams and Glass. People like Simon because he actually produces. But, of course, he might turn out to be nothing special. Anything can happen. However, complaining about him right now is, I repeat, bizarre.

Since you didn't reply to it, I take it you agree with my previous post that the desire to chase "balance" in the line combinations has failed after 2016.

I most certainly don't agree. Malkin and Kessel are too inconsistent together for us to play them on one line no matter what. If Brassard wasn't so underwhelming, playing Kessel with him might well have worked like a charm.

 

[canadianguy77]

If you go by the eye test, Simon disappears for long stretches. He'll have a game or two where he scores a goal or makes a nice pass to set up a goal like last night, then for the next several games he's invisible. But everyone will cling to that one moment to justify his usage in the top 6. Many of you have done the same with guys like Archibald and Scott Wilson, which is why there's still angst among those that JR traded them.

I think he's producing well enough there. My issue with Simon is that it's far too easy to knock him off of the puck. Obviously I don't expect him to be Sidney Crosby, but he has to stronger on the puck if that line is going to have any sort of sustained offense in the playoffs.

 

[Shockmaster]

You don't need advanced stats to say Simon is doing well this year, him being on pace for 15 goals and 40 points with 90% of that being ES production says he's doing well. But yes, the eye test overrides the fact that Simon is producing like a top-6 forward this year, yep.

Really? That makes him look better suited for the 3rd line. Also, you made a really good point about Simon in the Salary Cap Thread:

I don't know what it is, but I've really soured on Simon recently for seemingly no reason. He's been producing well, he has 3 goals and 8 points in his last 11 games, but I'm just really uncomfortable with any lineup that has him above the 3rd line. I want him on the 4th line for when the playoffs open, that would be a best case scenario for me.

Salary Cap: - Salary Cap & Roster Building Thread

I swear I didn't hack your phone or computer and post this!

It's really easy to understand where you were coming from though. Simon's point totals are more a product of playing with 2 great players than anything he is doing. You stick any mostly any jabroni on the other side of Crosby and Guentzel and they'll get something by accident at least for a time. Considering the fact that he doesn't finish, doesn't provide the same "jam" (for lack of a better word) Hornqvist does, and had a horrible playoff outing when Sullivan inexplicably put him on the top line in the Washington series, it's very easy to be doubtful of him and prefer a better option.

It sounds like you're saying Simon doesn't pass the eye test.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Really? That makes him look better suited for the 3rd line. Also, you made a really good point about Simon in the Salary Cap Thread:



Salary Cap: - Salary Cap & Roster Building Thread

I swear I didn't hack your phone or computer and post this!

It's really easy to understand where you were coming from though. Simon's point totals are more a product of playing with 2 great players than anything he is doing. You stick any mostly any jabroni on the other side of Crosby and Guentzel and they'll get something by accident at least for a time. Considering the fact that he doesn't finish, doesn't provide the same "jam" (for lack of a better word) Hornqvist does, and had a horrible playoff outing when Sullivan inexplicably put him on the top line in the Washington series, it's very easy to be doubtful of him and prefer a better option.

It sounds like you're saying Simon doesn't pass the eye test.

The problem is not with you casting some doubt on Simon being able to play in the top-6, the problem is you saying **** like this:

"If he was suddenly traded or waived I don't think it would impact the team at all."
"That's what a lot of us thought of Brian Gibbons and Jayson Megna one time too."
"That's why I would have liked to see JR let Simon go last offseason as a message to the coaching staff."

That's the problem here. Not casting doubt on Simon being a top-6 forward, it's saying this stupid ****.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I think he's producing well enough there. My issue with Simon is that it's far too easy to knock him off of the puck. Obviously I don't expect him to be Sidney Crosby, but he has to stronger on the puck if that line is going to have any sort of sustained offense in the playoffs.

He’s pretty good on his skates. He might not have the upper body strength but he has strong legs to help with that. Although he is playing against better D now so there is an adjustment.

That would be the thing to watch out for come playoffs is 2 smaller wingers like Jake and Sheary got hemmed in badly 2 seasons ago against CBJ. Sully switched to Hornqvist (then Rust once Horny got hurt). Having said that Jake put on 10 pounds and is a better player in that regard and Simon is better/smarter than Sheary in that regard too (and D zone play in general).

The good thing is we have plenty of options if it didn’t work.