Post-Game Talk: Penguins 4, Hurricanes 2

[MtlPenFan]

Classical Empoleon here. Quiet about Kessel after bad games, always childish like this after good games.

See, I am a hater but I can admit that he was great tonight. Carolina fits his style well. In fact, the whole 2nd line was excellent and we need that badly. Do this in Philly on Saturday and I will shut up at least for some time

Sid was the story tonight though. What a captain. I never ever doubted him.

Murray rebounded excellently, too. Very calm.

Great 2 points, chasing the Islanders now. It´s getting interesting.

LOL I get gloating if Phil played like that every other game, but Jesus...

 

[IcedCapp]

I think it's obvious that our management/coaching group, known for their sound logic and good ideas, rightly wants to take Kunitz off the first line but Crosby, famous for his lack of hockey knowledge and primadonna behavior, just won't allow it. Sorry if you can't deal with the truth, Crysby fanboy.

Sigh. I read this post 16 times, letting it sink in a little more each time. Finally I have into the reality of the situation. You're right. All of these years I've been blindly defending a false god. **** Sid. Give Ian Colesy the C.

 

[TheSniper26]

Sigh. I read this post 16 times, letting it sink in a little more each time. Finally I have into the reality of the situation. You're right. All of these years I've been blindly defending a false god. **** Sid. Give Ian Colesy the C.

Not possible. The C is currently divided up into multiple pieces and split between Porter, Dupuis, Guerin, Adams and Phil Bourque.

 

[billybudd]

Oh yeah, Cole's actually playing good right now. That's not just media spin; he's legitimately doing a good job in the last 2 or 3.

 

[ColePens]

Simon has no business playing in the NHL at this point, him playing is pure desperation due to injury and flameouts.

Sheary isn't any kind of defensive stalwart either. Kuntiz is a much better player on defense turnover or no.

Yesterday we witnessed a very lazy defensive play by Kunitz turn into a goal for the Canes. Then.. while it was still 2-0, he watched a play develop into a 2 on 1 instead of hustling back to get the guy in front of the net. It was like the gif of Ovy w/ the controller disconnected. Then.. he doesn't hustle two more times in that same period. So yes... I think I could make the case that anyone is better than him defensively, except Kessel.

And your comment on Simon, I disagree with. I had no prior knowledge of the kid but he's impressed the hell out of me in his short minutes. He's smart with the puck and his positioning is actually on the safe side. I rather enjoy watching him play. He's better than I imagined and it's kind of caught me off guard.

I'm not sold on Sully's player usage either (some of his lineup decisions are... <ahem> interesting), but I think this coach might have more potential to break the trend of not trusting young/"new Pens" players.

Maybe it truly is an org wide view and the coach is irrelevant. Who knows.

Sullivan is big on the illusion of accountability but it's clearly different for different players. He's in the Bylsma mould.

I hope so, cajal, but I agree with vabm8 here. The illusion versus the application is quite noticeable and it takes it's toll on teams over time. Dan Bylsma was the same way and he completely and utterly lost the team as a whole, while maintaining the insane attachment from the vets (as seen in the post-firing comments from our vets).

It's his one weakness. I actually like Sully's style of play and I love how attitude. But his "accountability" is almost identical to Dan Bylsma's and it can really lose a team quickly.

Can we not make the Kunitz thing about Sid, though? He was just removed from Sid's like for multiple games. Sid produced. He still reunited them. Surely no one believes that Sid was marching into Sullivan's office after every game demanding they be put back together... Right?

Sid's ****ing dominating right now, but we cannot rely on that in the postseason. He seriously carried the entire team on his back last night while Murray held the fort. It was a sight to see. He stopped the game from being 3-0 and then took over to make it 3-2. ****ing insane game by #87, but if we really want to be something in the playoffs, there is no way we can rely on him to win an entire series. We've tried that before.

That's my only response to why I think the comments are sort-of okay at this point.

 

[rookie skater]

Good game Pens (except the 2 goals allowed early). Let's do the same & if possible be even better on the 2 games this weekend.

 

[ColePens]

LOL I get gloating if Phil played like that every other game, but Jesus...

And not to harp on the overall game, but that was a perfect example of an entire game to showcase how not to play defense. I mean that about both teams. Canes were miserable on defense and the Pens, especially early on, were terrible as well.

I think Kessel can easily play those games, but looking ahead to the road for Lord Stanley and there is no chance he plays defenses like that. Not harping on the guy at all.... just commenting on the overall awful defensive play in last night's game.

I heard Bourque say "This is a game coaches scratch their head and say 'oh it's going to be one of these nights I see'"

 

[billybudd]

What has Simon done to give you that opinion? I think he's played pretty well so far with all things considered.

There's a difference between playing "pretty well so far with all things considered" and playing so well that it's somehow a good idea to put a first year pro re-drafted player on a line that faces the toughest competition in the NHL after a whopping 15 charmin soft minutes of NHL 4th line experience.

We've been down the road Ramzi's talking about before. Remember that consensus that Megna should replace Jokinen because he scored a goal one time? In retrospect, that thinking looks really bad. Jokinen's one of the best players on a team that will probably win its division and Megna belongs in an Australian league.

You have to get a decently long look at a guy before you throw him into the fire like that. 40 or so AHL games and 3 NHL games from a just-drafted ain't enough, unless you're talking about a guy who's nailed-on ready for primetime right this second. That latter sort is so rare that I can probably name all such players from the last ten years without looking it up.

 

[cajal]

Yesterday we witnessed a very lazy defensive play by Kunitz turn into a goal for the Canes. Then.. while it was still 2-0, he watched a play develop into a 2 on 1 instead of hustling back to get the guy in front of the net. It was like the gif of Ovy w/ the controller disconnected. Then.. he doesn't hustle two more times in that same period. So yes... I think I could make the case that anyone is better than him defensively, except Kessel.

And your comment on Simon, I disagree with. I had no prior knowledge of the kid but he's impressed the hell out of me in his short minutes. He's smart with the puck and his positioning is actually on the safe side. I rather enjoy watching him play. He's better than I imagined and it's kind of caught me off guard.





I hope so, cajal, but I agree with vabm8 here. The illusion versus the application is quite noticeable and it takes it's toll on teams over time. Dan Bylsma was the same way and he completely and utterly lost the team as a whole, while maintaining the insane attachment from the vets (as seen in the post-firing comments from our vets).

It's his one weakness. I actually like Sully's style of play and I love how attitude. But his "accountability" is almost identical to Dan Bylsma's and it can really lose a team quickly.



Sid's ****ing dominating right now, but we cannot rely on that in the postseason. He seriously carried the entire team on his back last night while Murray held the fort. It was a sight to see. He stopped the game from being 3-0 and then took over to make it 3-2. ****ing insane game by #87, but if we really want to be something in the playoffs, there is no way we can rely on him to win an entire series. We've tried that before.

That's my only response to why I think the comments are sort-of okay at this point.

I hope Sullivan will wake up with regards to his lineup decisions and ice time for players (especially game situation ice time), and that's all it is - hope.

I'm glad that Sullivan has had the team playing better. He's definitely under the pressure of having to pick up the pieces and make the playoffs, but if he really believes some of these decisions are giving the Pens the best chance to win - maybe he's not the best head coach for the team going forward.

 

[IcedCapp]

Cole: I don't want Kunitz there, but I simply don't believe it's Sid's doing. He played with Hagelin and was good. He played with Wilson and was good. Sullivan couldn't leave it for more than two games in a row. This is just the order of things at this point.

 

[ColePens]

There's a difference between playing "pretty well so far with all things considered" and playing so well that it's somehow a good idea to put a first year pro re-drafted player on a line that faces the toughest competition in the NHL after a whopping 15 charmin soft minutes of NHL 4th line experience.

We've been down the road Ramzi's talking about before. Remember that consensus that Megna should replace Jokinen because he scored a goal one time? In retrospect, that thinking looks really bad. Jokinen's one of the best players on a team that will probably win its division and Megna belongs in an Australian league.

You have to get a decently long look at a guy before you throw him into the fire like that. 40 or so AHL games and 3 NHL games from a just-drafted ain't enough, unless you're talking about a guy who's nailed-on ready for primetime right this second. That latter sort is so rare that I can probably name all such players from the last ten years without looking it up.

In my honest opinion, that is complete ********. You don't desperately need experience. Sometimes being raw and hungry is better than experienced. Or... you can have a perfect combination find good chemistry like Rust and Cullen. If a rookie is making rookie mistakes, then you make the decision to bench him. Don't just expect him to make them.

I think "experience" is one of the dumbest and most overused concepts on NHL teams. You can find examples that work and examples that just completely suck.

Until he proves me wrong, he deserves a shot. Why couldn't we say the same about Murray last night? Murray only had a few games of NHL experience, yet he was our second best player (by a large margin) last night. In your theory, that shouldn't happen and Zatkoff should get the start since Zatkoff has a lot more NHL experience. That's using your reasoning against you.

 

[ColePens]

Cole: I don't want Kunitz there, but I simply don't believe it's Sid's doing. He played with Hagelin and was good. He played with Wilson and was good. Sullivan couldn't leave it for more than two games in a row. This is just the order of things at this point.

Oh I agree. I think Sully's reasoning is 1) he knows/thinks Sid works w/ Kunitz and 2) he is trying to get Kessel going and Kessel has shown his best work with Hags due to their speed.

It's definitely not Sid's doing, IMO. I think that argument is so overused. That all falls on the coach. Even IF Sid was telling him to do it, it's still on the coach. You coach your team. Period.

 

[billybudd]

Cole: I don't want Kunitz there, but I simply don't believe it's Sid's doing. He played with Hagelin and was good. He played with Wilson and was good. Sullivan couldn't leave it for more than two games in a row. This is just the order of things at this point.

I can explain Hagelin. And probably Wilson.

Any time Kessel's on the scoresheet, Hagelin's a key factor in the play. If Hags is on Sid's line last night, there's a good chance the 2nd line produces nothing and we might not win that game.

I don't see Hagelin away from Crosby as an indictment of his work, but as an acknowledgment that with no Malkin and no Hagelin, PK doesn't seem to get much of anything done.

With Wilson, he's in a platoon. Nobody's really sure what Wilson is at this point. If you're going to give an unheralded unknown a very difficult assignment, to me, it's best to break him in gently. His injury, unfortunately, short-circuited that process.

 

[billybudd]

In my honest opinion, that is complete ********. You don't desperately need experience. Sometimes being raw and hungry is better than experienced. Or... you can have a perfect combination find good chemistry like Rust and Cullen. If a rookie is making rookie mistakes, then you make the decision to bench him. Don't just expect him to make them.

I think "experience" is one of the dumbest and most overused concepts on NHL teams. You can find examples that work and examples that just completely suck.

Until he proves me wrong, he deserves a shot. Why couldn't we say the same about Murray last night? Murray only had a few games of NHL experience, yet he was our second best player (by a large margin) last night. In your theory, that shouldn't happen and Zatkoff should get the start since Zatkoff has a lot more NHL experience. That's using your reasoning against you.

When people have unironically, in complete seriousness, suggested playing Sidney Crosby between Eric Tangradi and Beau Bennett for half a year "to see if it sticks," maybe, just maybe, it's time to re-evaluate the entire thought process that could lead someone to what was, in retrospect, a preposterous failure of an idea instead of doubling down and potentially making the same exact mistake in assuming some other guy you know absolutely nothing about is a top of the rotation pitcher "until he proves me otherwise." It will blow up in your face 1000 times for every 1 time it works.

You don't assume Simon, who you have little to no knowledge of, can go be Patrice Bergeron (a first line capable player in his draft year) until he "proves otherwise." You ease him in to see what he can handle--and what he can't. If he can handle more, you give him more. If he can handle that, you give him even more. If he can't, you step him back.

That's how Wilson ended up with a trial on line 1. Put him in a limited role. Started scoring. Expanded it a little. Kept scoring. Went scoreless for a little while, got stepped back a bit. Then he got hurt, so the story will continue next year. Simon's not past step 1 yet.

You don't take an intern and make him Executive Vice President because one line of business shrunk 5% last quarter and you overheard him say something clever while you were pouring coffee.

Experience is one variable. Not knowing anything the **** about Dominic Simon, what he can do, how he handles NHL minutes against bigger, better players than he's ever played against and wanting him on the first line, anyway, is another major one. What you're suggesting is the type of thing the Islanders used to do back when they were a laughingstock. "Hey Lachance is supposed to be good, let's make him a 1 D." Ended up as a huge disappointment.

 

[ColePens]

Nobody is saying put Simon with Sidney Crosby. You really just took my argument and made it about something else. Do I think the guy deserves 3-4 minutes of playing time? No... that's ****ing ridiculous. The other night when Sheary had 2 goals, I think he ended up with Sprong-like minutes at all of 6 or 7. That's completely nuts. That's poor bench management at it's finest.

No.. Simon doesn't deserve powerplay, PK, or 1st line minuetes. But he doesn't need less than 8 minutes each night. That's just dumb.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

This is just false. Compare the number of nhl'ers who score 30+ to the number making ~7 million. Offense has dropped in the league and the cap has gone up in recent years. Kessel has had an off year and will finish with 20+ goals and ~55 points. If he returns to form next year, he's going to produce enough to justify his cap hit. It's not as big of an issue as people make it out to be.

Derek Stepan is making nearly 7 fwiw.

I'm on the same side of the argument as you. I find at times people are splitting hairs to find something to crap on Kessel about, making him probably the 2nd biggest whipping boy on this team after Kunitz. Granted, we all expected him to light it up and put up well over 30 goals this season playing with Sid and/or Geno, but be that as it may, I do think that a lot of hte criticisms have been highly exaggerated. The guy is still moving the puck well, generating quality chances, putting and putting pucks on net at every opportunity. He just hasn't had the best of puck-luck on most nights in my opinion.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

KCH is Sullivan's KCD. He likes it and won't willingly give it up. That's why he'll try something new when he's feeling cornered but it will only last a few games.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

I hope someone gives Staal a Chicago Sunroof while he's away golfing in a few weeks. Embarrassing he ever played here.

What did I miss? I was doing things during the broadcast

Is this about the spear?

 

[Hossa die Waldfee]

Kunitz had the 2nd most ice time of all our forwards. He did not deserve that. He played three and a half minutes more than Hagelin, despite Hagsy plaing one and a half minute more on special teams.
But maybe the 27 year old is just not conditioned enough to play occasional shifts on the first line though.

ps: Cole, I think you are selling Letang short by calling Murray our second best player by a wide margin. Tanger played half the game and created a **** ton of chances. Playing 29:40 is no joke.

 

[ColePens]

To be fair, Hags had his fair share of bad plays last night, too. Not his best with the puck at all.

 

[Hossa die Waldfee]

To be fair, Hags had his fair share of bad plays last night, too. Not his best with the puck at all.

Yeah I was trying to argue the "you can't take Hagelin away from Kessel" point. And I thought Hagelin actually got his act together after a really bad first period to be honest.

 

[chethejet]

Kunitz has lost his juice for over a year. That happens. Shero gave him a 4 year extension which was to long a deal. Same with Dupuis and the worst of course Scuderi. Sullivan is hands down the best coach the Pens have had for years. He makes errors as all do. But he has the team playing better and if I read my cards right, he will cement his way by next year. GMJR to me is the guy who will loose juice as Sullivan gains more authority. Pens brass above JR are impressed with Sullivan and see him as the guy to bet on.

What it means is Sullivan will have players playing his way and will take time away if he sees floaters and guys who are not in the kind of condition to play at the expected level. Kessel will be held to that expectation of effort. The country club days are ending. Bringing in the WB crew is about competition and PT. Bylsma was a joke as he simply didn't want to disturb his favs. Shame just how disfunctional the franchise really was since 2010.