Post-Game Talk: Penguins 4, Golden Knights 2 - Cough Drops and Hot Dogs for Everyone?s

[EliteGoaltending]

To elaborate more on JJ:

It's not that i'm this huge fan boy.
I'd love nothing more than having the over 11.5M being spent on Olli+Schultz+BigRig equaling a super solid 2nd pair.
But thats just not what we have atm and guys lke JJ+Riikola are in the 2nd pair mix because of it.
It is what it is and the solution atm is simply FINDING a 2nd pair that works well out of the 4 players that are in the mix for it.
JJ-Schultz ain't the first one i'd try.

I just hope they wouldn't be too stubborn with squaring JJ into top 4/second pair.

Seems like 3rd pair, with less minutes and lesser competition may be better place for him.
(since what's done is done already.. I mean signing him to a contract.)

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Metro is no joke. And lots of teams here are on the rise.

Devils, Philly and especially Canes have a pretty big youth movement.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think the only two differences from the Montreal game were DeSmith made some saves and our offense was opportunistic with their chances. Otherwise, that still looks like the defensively challenged team we saw last Saturday night.

Only positive is the fact Riikola looks like he's a gem. Kessel got the hattrick, so good for that line. But I didn't think they played that well. They were just very opportunistic with their chances.

Sid had a bad evening. He just didn't seem to have any jump. He improved a bit after Hornqvist was swapped with Rust, but he still didn't look anywhere close to the guy we saw in Game 1 versus Washington.

I really don't like how badly structured the team continues to be.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We would keep Hagelin, and move some picks for a player like Boedker, Baeratschi, Sobotka, etc. with some retention that gives us a bottom six LW.

Remind me, what exactly is the argument against Rust - the closest possible equivalent to Hags we could hope to find - being even tried on LW again? This thing that's so ominous, so potentially disastrous, so fundamentally wrong that we have to avoid it all costs and then spend assets on a lesser player to fill that roster void?

Because I forget and it seems really stupid to me.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Ok...well I’m not enthralled with those names but I could see doing that but for a top 6 LW, not a bottom 6...imo we have enough bottom 6 wings in the pipeline...we need some better talent, like the one we tried and failed to get in Domi....ideal is Kunitz circa 2011...can we find that player?

I think an elephant in the room is RW position.

If someone asked me where I'd rather play Hornqvist, Kessel and Rust, I'd say 3rd line RW for each of them.
Like, it's ideal spot for each, on this team imo. Not top 6 with Crosby and Malkin.

Younger Kunitz was a great fit into our top 6.
We're short on wingers with well rounded game too.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I still don't get why Rust doesn't click with Crosby. From a strictly style/physical tools standpoint, Rust has everything Sid usually wants in a winger.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I still don't get why Rust doesn't click with Crosby. From a strictly style/physical tools standpoint, Rust has everything Sid usually wants in a winger.

Just an observation, but it seems to me that he needs the puck on his stick more than any of Sid's other regular wingers through the years. And whenever Rust has the puck, that means Crosby doesn't - which isn't great for scoring. He's a very good player, but not a particularly efficient one compared to Guentzel, Horny, Kunitz, Dupuis, etc.

 

[Gurglesons]

Remind me, what exactly is the argument against Rust - the closest possible equivalent to Hags we could hope to find - being even tried on LW again? This thing that's so ominous, so potentially disastrous, so fundamentally wrong that we have to avoid it all costs and then spend assets on a lesser player to fill that roster void?

Because I forget and it seems really stupid to me.

Coaching staff saying - no.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Coaching staff saying - no.

The coaching staff has figuratively said "no" to a bunch of good ideas this year, including giving Sprong a real chance in the top 9 this year. But it's still dumb and we shouldn't pretend like these options don't exist.

 

[Gurglesons]

Just an observation, but it seems to me that he needs the puck on his stick more than any of Sid's other regular wingers through the years. And whenever Rust has the puck, that means Crosby doesn't - which isn't great for scoring. He's a very good player, but not a particularly efficient one compared to Guentzel, Horny, Kunitz, Dupuis, etc.

Rust is the kind of player that dictates where it is going and needs a player that can read that. So, is Crosby. The fact it gets forced together so much is annoying. Guentzel is the Dupuis, we need a RW Kunitz.

 

[Gurglesons]

The coaching staff has figuratively said "no" to a bunch of good ideas this year, including giving Sprong a real chance in the top 9 this year. But it's still dumb and we shouldn't pretend like these options don't exist.

So, my prediction of you still being upset about Sprong’s usage is correct as well.

Rust works with another skilled RW. I’d be willing to give Rust - Brassard - Kessel a look.

But, I’d be just fine imagining Guentzel - Crosby - Kessel, Rust - Malkin - Sprong, Hagelin - Brassard - Hornqvist, Cullen - Sheahan - Simon in fantasy land.

 

[billybudd]

I'm guessing when they feel like Maatta needs to get back in the lineup, it's going to be Oleksiak, not Rikola, who comes out. Rikola is showing no signs of being anything less than a middle pairing defenseman so far. Maybe more.

Sprong had some good shifts. So did Simon.

Phil won us the game, but his puck management could very well have lost it, too. A lot of careless, lazy turnovers in really bad places.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So, my prediction of you still being upset about Sprong’s usage is correct as well.

Rust works with another skilled RW. I’d be willing to give Rust - Brassard - Kessel a look.

But, I’d be just fine imagining Guentzel - Crosby - Kessel, Rust - Malkin - Sprong, Hagelin - Brassard - Hornqvist, Cullen - Sheahan - Simon in fantasy land.

I'll be critical for as long as Sprong isn't given a real chance beside Crosby, Malkin, or Brass. Never said otherwise, and I guarantee that won't change all year.

Rust-Brass-Kessel
Rust-Malkin-Sprong

Both of those look like great options to me. I wish we'd try them. There's nothing to lose and we could potentially solve a few pressing roster issues. That bottom 6 is way too meat and potatoes for me to entertain at this point though.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I still don't get why Rust doesn't click with Crosby. From a strictly style/physical tools standpoint, Rust has everything Sid usually wants in a winger.

If you notice how Rust plays, you notice he floats to the left side a lot with Sid.

But hey...you know, he's "not a left winger"....

 

[WayneSid9987]

Well now that they potentially have the goaltending to an acceptable level, the next more easily fixable parts are:

1) Managing energy/getting up for every game

Most of this one and vs MTL, they looked exhausted physically and mentally.
This includes the back check/covering lanes.

2) Puck management/getting the little details down

They did some good to great work in their DZ when pucks were on Vegas sticks but once they got the puck back...whew...they are still a mess and thats fixable.

Also really not consistent in thier NZ to just over the offensive blue line puck management. Lots of turnovers still there. Plus bad gaps. More fixable things no matter who's dressed.

For a team that wants to play alot more in the OZ ^ has to be ironed out and are the most easily fixable aspects of the game.

Figured the battle for this squad most of the season would be just that, finding that consistency from the G position and thier own zone to the OZ to play the way they really wanna play. Pushing teams back on their heels with the puck on the F's sticks alot more.
It'll be an ongoing process this season to achieve that.

 

[Tender Rip]

I didn't like much of anything about the game. Absent Riikola and Letang.... and DeSmith of course.

I don't know what our structure is supposed to really be like these days, but it cannot be what we are seeing. Unfortunately I think Sullivan has hit a snag in terms of getting through to the vets that work rate in the early stages matters. Might be natural enough, but we're certainly less than the sum of our parts at this stage.

Whatever your skill level, if you are getting out-hustled consistently and your opponents don't beat themselves with mistakes and/or penalties, it is hard to win in the NHL. Montreal, a much inferior side on paper, didn't beat themselves and they capitalized on our mistakes. Vegas didn't capitalize nearly enough (thanks DeSmith), and we won the game through being more lucky/opportunistic - and Phil finding space on two exquisitely executed breakaways, that said nothing about how the game was otherwise played.

Either way, I am not worried at all at this stage. There are issues that will work themselves out, and there are some where it will become clear that Sullivan has to make changes. Hopefully Phil can keep scoring truckloads of goals and points despite being the main cause of his line being scandalously below its capabilities ES.

When Sid and Geno finishes a game without having had a shot on goal, you know that something about the way we set up offense is not right. More so when it happens to both of them at the same time. And this was a Vegas team on the back-end of a back to back without its nr. 1 D-man and nr. 2 C - and with a backup in net.

On to Montreal, hopefully pride dictates not laying an egg twice in a week against the same team.

 

[Son Goku]

I love Sprong's shot first mentality.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Think the thing that is throwing Sully's strats for a loop is teams sitting back/pulling back and looking to counter. The guys shooting the zone and D just firing it up for a tip is being met with more traffic and teams anticipating it.
Just another test of Sully+Martin's X's and O's that they're gonna have to solve.

 

[Burn]

Good to get the win and to see at least some attempt to try to play like a pro team but its still sloppy play. All of those give aways and turn overs came right back down the ice. A better team would have finished a few of those chances.

I like Rust and he had the legs going last night but he has no business playing with Crosby regularly. The IQ isnt there to support Sid.

I dont think Sprong has been that bad. My concerns with him is team play and trying. He's been keeping his feet moving but needs to play with some skill. There are shifts here and there that I would like to see him get a shot with Sid and Jake or at least Brassard.

 

[Turin]

I don’t think it’s systemic. They just need to play with more of a killer instinct, that includes being hard on the puck in their own end. Also, the D pairings are trash. Pens are getting bad returns (shocking) on half the D.

Riikola-Letang / Dumoulin-Schultz / Maatta-Johnson is something I would try. I’m really not married to Dumo-Letang if Letang is good again, he can carry any decent partner. And honestly as much progress as Jultz has made in his own end, I don’t want him playing with Jack Johnson.

 

[Pens1566]

If nothing else, this season will be great just because of the Tom Hanks gifs. Early favorite for playoff avatars ... dibs on something 'Burbs related.

 

[Peat]

I still don't get why Rust doesn't click with Crosby. From a strictly style/physical tools standpoint, Rust has everything Sid usually wants in a winger.

He doesn't have the vision and hands - at least not consistently. He's got the physical tools, but once he makes space, Rust only really has one mode that works and that's straight towards the net. He can't do the intricate passing plays, he can't find the man in space consistently, except when he's at the very top of his game - particularly against the sort of opposition Sid draws. Last night fitted my memory of last season pretty much to a tee - Rust does a great thing to find space, Rust throws asinine pass to net, puck is cleared. Crosby or Guentzel in those scenarios would either keep it or move it back to the point.



On the lines in general - aimed at too many people to count - have some patience. We know Sully likes to change up his lines, we'll know he'll do it and we know he'll try a lot of different lines. The fact that he's had only the slightest tinker with his forward lines in three games doesn't mean this has changed. It means he doesn't want to make kneejerk changes and has some egos to handle. Right or wrong, certain guys want things a certain way and its easier to work with them on it. Right or wrong, there'll be an expectation that guys who've given a lot to the team will have chances to turn things round.

The process will work out.

I will say this. I'm not big on cementing someone's legacy on one move, but Sully really shocked me by not playing Riikola in game 1. That was the first time I witnessed Sully stick to his guys that he won a Cup with whether they deserved it or not. When he came up in 2016, he gave zero ****s. The best players played no matter how old or who had hurt feelings.

Riikola earned a spot with his camp and there were 2-3 defenders who played like **** that could have been sent a message to pick it up. Especially Maatta who had disaster preseason games against AHL talent. That message could have been at Game 1.

You see it with the lines now, too. Sprong, tonight, earned a shift or two up with the top 6. He was just having one of those nights. And the RW for Sid's line was struggling no matter who it was. It was the perfect time to pull that trigger and reward him. And he didn't. Hell if L1 RW is struggling and it's Rust/Horny, what the hell would hold you back from trying Sprong out? It's do or die for his Pens career as he's not eligible to be waived. Give it a go.

I saw a lot of Sully giving extra chances to guys who'd served him well last season - Kuhnhackl, Rowney, Sheary to pick the three obvious ones. And how can we forget our righteous anger when Kunitz got chance after chance based on rep? Sully's big on accountability and form, but its not everything.

And, sure, it could have been at Game 1... but the message still shocked a lot of people coming at Game 3. Plenty of people saying they wouldn't believe it until they saw it. I think Sully deserves more praise for making the move earlier than people expected than criticism for not making it at the very earliest possible opportunity.

I mean, the trend has continued from last season to this.

Sullivan has repeated the past coaches mistakes, he got too comfortable with certain names and forgot what got him to where he is. What we loved about Sullivan was his willingness to try something new with the line-up which meant calling up guys, what we didn't know was that those were his guys that he was calling up and when they moved on, he kept sticking with the guys he had left.

Guentzel wasn't his guy. ZAR wasn't his guy. Ruh wasn't his guy. DeSmith wasn't his guy. And all of them have had games ahead of/helped force out guys from WBS he did coach.

I agree with you that some of his selections have been conservative and based at least partially on loyalty (although is he significantly worse than any other NHL coach for this?). But there's still plenty of moves that haven't been and there's been a pretty continuous youth movement.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The coaching staff has figuratively said "no" to a bunch of good ideas this year, including giving Sprong a real chance in the top 9 this year. But it's still dumb and we shouldn't pretend like these options don't exist.

There are still 79 more games this year. It is way way way way way too early to say we didn't give Sprong a real chance in the top 9 this year.

 

[Angrrus]

As far as I'm concerned, I'm not very excited with a win. Vegas is bad now, the are in the middle of an East Coast trip, on a second night of b2b's, and with a BU goalie. Kessel took advantage of these facts, and first of all - of the goalie factor. Overall quality of Pens play was mediocre. Malkin and others were still making sloppy careless passes. Letang was againg blowing D-zone assignments. DeSmith faced a significant amount of shots, and was generally solid, so kudos to him, but most of the shots were not a grade A quality, so not much to be extatic about either.

I don't understand what the coaches want from Sprong. The kid is working his pants off. But he needs a pass to showcase his shot. Sheahan and Cullen simply cannot give him a good pass into a bit of space for a good clean shot. Give him a bit of Brassard at least, for goodness' sakes.

Note for the moderator: This is not a troll post, but a genuine opinion.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I don’t think it’s systemic. They just need to play with more of a killer instinct, that includes being hard on the puck in their own end. Also, the D pairings are trash. Pens are getting bad returns (shocking) on half the D.

Riikola-Letang / Dumoulin-Schultz / Maatta-Johnson is something I would try. I’m really not married to Dumo-Letang if Letang is good again, he can carry any decent partner. And honestly as much progress as Jultz has made in his own end, I don’t want him playing with Jack Johnson.

Not a big fan of JJ-Schultz either.
And i'd tinker with splitting up Dumo-Tanger as well but i'd try and find a solid 2nd pair first.

The reality atm, for me, is:

Dumo/Riikola-Tang
Riikola/Dumo-Schultz/JJ

is the best top 4 they can make right now until Olli gets back up to speed which he could quite quickly.
Instead of the JJ-Schultz stuff i'd staple Riiks there and give both JJ and Schultz a spin.

The systemic stuff comes in when guys are flying the zone when a team is setup to clog up the NZ and counter. Their turnover rate is probably close to the top of the league atm. It incorporates both systemic issues and guys treating the puck like a grenade when it's on their blades.