Post-Game Talk: Penguins 4, Golden Knights 2 - Cough Drops and Hot Dogs for Everyone?s

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Dipsy Doodle

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Huh?

We were really good that year and had Sheary, Hagelin and Kunitz all returning on the LW as well as Wilson?

How many of those LWs was Guentzel definitively better than that year?

And he had to wait until the middle of the season for an injury, a 2 goal debut, and a demotion for it to happen anyway. This is my point.

But was Guentzel so good that he had nothing left to learn fine polishing details in the AHL?

Guentzel could probably still polish some things in the AHL if the coaching staff wanted to make that the defining characteristic for a call-up. I'm sure Kunitz has his details down better.

it's the NHL. No need to force a young guy over someone else when things are going well. He was always going to get a chance. Same will be true for Sprong to get his chance. You don't need to just demote someone else who is doing their job well to force the young guy into a better chance. As you said, points in October count for just as much as points in April. It's not a development league. Sully is playing the proven team. Sprong will get his chance when it comes up or when he forces their hand. As of now, those things haven't happened. If Simon keeps struggling, maybe we see Rust moved to LW. We'll see. But it's been 3 games, and Simon's looked really good in one of them. You wouldn't want Sprong demoted yet if he was in Simon's position.

In the meantime, light a candle for the kid and his < 10 minutes a night and 76% d-zone starts. ;)
 

Gurglesons

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How many of those LWs was Guentzel definitively better than that year?

And he had to wait until the middle of the season for an injury, a 2 goal debut, and a demotion for it to happen anyway. This is my point.

Guentzel could probably still polish some things in the AHL if the coaching staff wanted to make that the defining characteristic for a call-up. I'm sure Kunitz has his details down better.

In the meantime, light a candle for the kid and his < 10 minutes a night and 76% d-zone starts. ;)

It’s really clear that your personal biases towards players like Sheary, Simon and Kunitz is clouding your understanding how young players are developed on every team.

Guentzel getting bumped down worked out just as the staff wanted it to?
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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he broke up a line that everyone knew would be broken up. Sid and Horny just don't stick together. I don't get it, but it is what it is.

And again, do you think Simon deserves to be demoted? Because that's what pretty much has to happen for them to implement the lines you want barring injury. Rust, Horny, or Kessel will not be on L4 anytime soon.

I'm not sure I do... but I'm not sure I think he deserves to definitely not be demoted either. I think he's a player who needs to make a bit of noise again soon.
 
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Ogrezilla

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And he had to wait until the middle of the season for an injury, a 2 goal debut, and a demotion for it to happen anyway. This is my point.
And that worked out very well. So I don't get your point. What did we do wrong in that situation?
In the meantime, light a candle for the kid and his < 10 minutes a night and 76% d-zone starts. ;)
sure thing. It's a shame for him he's not trying to make a bad hockey team I guess.
 
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Ogrezilla

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I'm not sure I do... but I'm not sure I think he deserves to definitely not be demoted either. I think he's a player who needs to make a bit of noise again soon.
agreed. My point is that it seems silly to want to demote Simon so that we can promote Sprong. Especially when I guarantee he'd be upset if Sprong was demoted after the type of three game stretch Simon has had.
 

Peat

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Guentzel could probably still polish some things in the AHL if the coaching staff wanted to make that the defining characteristic for a call-up. I'm sure Kunitz has his details down better.

I'm not quite sure what that first sentence means tbh.

agreed. My point is that it seems silly to want to demote Simon so that we can promote Sprong. Especially when I guarantee he'd be upset if Sprong was demoted after the type of three game stretch Simon has had.

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.

I get being upset with the original decision. But being upset because the coach is giving standard backing to the decision he made and not immediately reversing for the one you want?
 

Dipsy Doodle

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And that worked out very well. So I don't get your point. What did we do wrong in that situation?

sure thing. It's a shame for him he's not trying to make a bad hockey team I guess.

There but for the grace of God goes any Pens top 6 prospect who doesn't light the world on fire in his debut, is what I'm saying.

Had Guentzel not scored those prerequisite 2 goals, maybe he stays down all year in 2017.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.

I get being upset with the original decision. But being upset because the coach is giving standard backing to the decision he made and not immediately reversing for the one you want?

On the flip side, Simon's only got 1 assist in 3 games. If Sprong was on the third line next to Brassard and only produced 1 assist and no goals in 3 games, I'd be surprised if Sullivan hadn't made a move to bump him down to the 4th line and promote the guy on the 4th line who has more points in a limited role.
 
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Ogrezilla

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There but for the grace of God goes any Pens top 6 prospect who doesn't light the world on fire in his debut, is what I'm saying.

Had Guentzel not scored those prerequisite 2 goals, maybe he stays down all year in 2017.
or maybe he doesn't. You are just making baseless claims at this point.
 
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Ogrezilla

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On the flip side, Simon's only got 1 assist in 3 games. If Sprong was on the third line next to Brassard and only produced 1 assist and no goals in 3 games, I'd be surprised if Sullivan hadn't made a move to bump him down to the 4th line and promote the guy on the 4th line who has more points in a limited role.
based on what? He played 8 games with Sid last year and scored in how many of them?
 

Ogrezilla

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And got quickly demoted back to the AHL because he stopped producing, yet Simon stuck around despite also not really producing.
oh the humanity, a prospect was demoted and a different prospect was given a chance instead. It must be unfair because the coach doesn't agree with how you would handle it. Bias for sure.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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oh the humanity, a prospect was demoted and a different prospect was given a chance instead. It must be unfair because the coach doesn't agree with how you would handle it. Bias for sure.

:laugh: I mean, you asked what evidence there was that Sprong likely doesn't get the same chance Simon does if he only produced 1 point in 3 games like Simon has. When I give you the evidence, your response is a sarcastic "oh poor you, the coach likes the other guy better".
 
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Ogrezilla

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:laugh: I mean, you asked what evidence there was that Sprong likely doesn't get the same chance Simon does if he only produced 1 point in 3 games like Simon has. When I give you the evidence, your response is a sarcastic "oh poor you, the coach likes the other guy better".
Simon and Sprong both produced at a 30 point pace last year. What was unfair about them choosing one over the other?
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
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Simon and Sprong both produced at a 30 point pace last year. What was unfair about them choosing one over the other?

The original discussion was about Simon getting more rope than Sprong (ie. if Sprong had produced as little as Simon these first three games playing next to Brassard, he'd be demoted). You asked where is there evidence that's the case. I provided an example from last year.

Now you're moving the discussion to "what is unfair about them choosing one over the other".
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
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The original discussion was about Simon getting more rope than Sprong (ie. if Sprong had produced as little as Simon these first three games playing next to Brassard, he'd be demoted). You asked where is there evidence that's the case. I provided an example from last year.

Now you're moving the discussion to "what is unfair about them choosing one over the other".
Fair enough I guess. It is technically evidence, but it's very slim evidence of what they would do with Sprong in that situation.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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or maybe he doesn't. You are just making baseless claims at this point.

I'm not making a claim. It's a hypothetical where there's an unreasonably high standard for a skill prospect to establish himself with very limited opportunity, and the prospect doesn't overwhelm during that small window.

If it takes a Guentzel-like immediate impact for a skill prospect to get a real opportunity, you might be bypassing some serious talent. If Guentzel's shots were a hair off, maybe he spends all year in WBS like Sprong did last season after his 8 games and our 2017 playoffs would have looked like our 2018 playoffs. Maybe our 2018 playoffs would have looked like our 2017 playoffs had we given Sprong a longer leash during his mid-season call-up.
 

Ogrezilla

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I'm not making a claim. It's a hypothetical where there's an unreasonably high standard for a great prospect to establish himself with very limited opportunity, and the prospect doesn't overwhelm during that small window.

If it takes a Guentzel-like immediate impact to get a real opportunity, you might be bypassing some serious talent. If Guentzel's shots were a hair off, maybe he spends all year in WBS like Sprong did last season after his 8 games and our 2017 playoffs would have looked like our 2018 playoffs. Maybe our 2018 playoffs would have looked like our 2017 playoffs had we given Sprong a longer leash during his mid-season call-up.
Or maybe Guentzel would have come up anyway and 2017 would have been exactly the same. Or maybe Sprong would have come up and produced just as poorly as Simon. We can speculate about things that didn't happen all day but what's the point? It doesn't mean anything at all.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Or maybe Guentzel would have come up anyway and 2017 would have been exactly the same. Or maybe Sprong would have come up and produced just as poorly as Simon. We can speculate about things that didn't happen all day but what's the point? It doesn't mean anything at all.

The point is that we ought to sincerely try to find out what we have, because things don't always bounce exactly right even for high-end talent. Especially when the alternative is the classic Rust back to the 1st line nonsense.
 

ColePens

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So is Riikola just a very late bloomer? Curious why he was never drafted or even signed before this year

I think it's crazy important for dmen to not just give up right away. Dumo is an example. Riikola may be an example, albeit everyone said he was great.
 
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