Post-Game Talk: Penguins 4, Blue Jackets 2 - 15+ Minutes for ZAR Proves the Winning Formula

[Tom Hanks]

I don't know who exactly is trying to ''prop'' Sprong up. I do however believe some here just wish he were afforded some of the same opportunities (ice time and to play with one of our top three centers) as others who largely haven't produced received. Tonight was a glaring example of that.

He hasn’t scored a goal and generally fails the eye test.

Also based on forwards:
3rd worst shots (per game)
2nd worst plus/minus
3rd worst corsi%
Worst on ice SV% (whole team)
Worst PDO
Worst takeaways (per game)
3rd worst shot attempts (per game)
Worst % of shots on net
Worst on ice GA/60 (whole team)
2nd worst on ice GF/60

 

[Andy99]

It was arguably one of ZAR's worst game as a Pen. He would want the tape burned from this game. So many whiffs, such poor execution, a step and a half behind for most of his shifts. Not good.

To be clear I don't dislike ZAR, but if he were not given ''special'' dispensation he'd be sent back down. But that's not how it works. That's not how any of this works!

I was joking...

 

[Ryder71]

He hasn’t scored a goal and generally fails the eye test.

Also based on forwards:
3rd worst shots (per game)
2nd worst plus/minus
3rd worst corsi%
Worst on ice SV% (whole team)
Worst PDO
Worst takeaways (per game)
3rd worst shot attempts (per game)
Worst % of shots on net
Worst on ice GA/60 (whole team)
2nd worst on ice GF/60

And who's he playing with compared to other such players? Plain and simple he will not flourish or even be productive with 4th line ham n egger types. It's not gonna happen and that's the way this coach wants it!

 

[Ryder71]

I was joking...

Unfortunately I'm not.

 

[Tom Hanks]

And who's he playing with compared to other such players? Plain and simple he will not flourish or even be productive with 4th line ham n egger types. It's not gonna happen and that's the way this coach wants it!

I think Malkin’s 2 mins with him in Vancouver was the only real positive in advanced stats but he’s too risky to play there at the moment. If we were better in the standings maybe but he’s already struggling against easier opposition.

I think only Grant and Rust have some advanced stats that are better with Sprong, some worse. Everyone else is better away from him, some significantly.

 

[EightyOne]

You guys keep it up and I'll make a GDT with ZAR in every position for you.






Also, I feel 3rd worst in whatever stat for Sprong sounds okay...it's when you say 15th out of 18th that it sinks in more.

 

[Turin]

Honestly I don’t think ZAR played that bad. Also Riikola needs to play over Ruh forever. If Sprong plays more assertive like he did today then he’ll get more minutes.

 

[Ryder71]

I think Malkin’s 2 mins with him in Vancouver was the only real positive in advanced stats but he’s too risky to play there at the moment. If we were better in the standings maybe but he’s already struggling against easier opposition.

I think only Grant and Rust have some advanced stats that are better with Sprong, some worse. Everyone else is better away from him, some significantly.

I'm not a big proponent of advanced stats because they are subjective. And IMO can really say whatever you want them to. Weren't they used in scenario that suggested Tyler Kennedy had better numbers than Sid? I'm not saying they should completely be ignored, but I would suggest they are a part of an equation but only a part. There's other variables to consider. Specific skillset, chemistry, experience, match ups, board work, flubbed passes from linemates, the eye test and other intangibles that can't accurately be equated. But as far as DS goes, no one should expect he'd be successful where he's been placed. He doesn't fit with those types of players. Maybe Sprongs give and go tonight would have ended up in the back of the net if it was Geno on the other end of that pass instead of Sheahan, you know, things like that.

What you're saying is every ham n egger we have does better away from a guy like that who has higher end skill but is a complimentary type player? Isn't that like saying water is wet? Should we expect anything else? I know I didn't. I'd like to see six or seven games with Geno, a player (who in theory anyhow) is more apt to help maximize his abilities. But unfortunately barring some rash of injuries we're not likely gonna see that. My hunch is he'd do well there. But we'll likely never know. Which again is by design.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I really hope ZAR turns it around since he is one of our limited amount of PK-forwards. Sully needs to utilize him better.

 

[Riptide]

He hasn’t scored a goal and generally fails the eye test.

True... but that said, his last 4 games have been a significant improvement over his first 12 - even with a -3 and 3 SOG the past 4 games. His jump has been very noticeable, and he's even been more physical and a little better along the boards. And most importantly, he's been creating chances and looking like the offensive threat we thought we drafted.

Much like his stint last season was a tail of two tapes, so has been this season for him pre/post benching. Hopefully it gets noticed.

So essentially what you're saying is every ham n egger we have does better away from a guy like that who has higher end skill but is a complimentary type player? Isn't that like saying water is wet? Should we expect anything else? I know I didn't. I'd like to see six or seven games with Geno, a player (who in theory anyhow) is more apt to help maximize his abilities. But unfortunately barring some rash of injuries we're not likely gonna see that. My hunch is he'd do well there. But we'll likely never know. Which again is by design.

No, what he's saying, is that almost every single player on the roster is better away from Sprong. Not sure how much that's changed the past few games where Sprong finally decided to play like an NHLer, but it was certainly true for the first 12. And it even went for the high end skilled guys. Sprong might not have gotten many full shifts with any of them, but the time he did spend with them usually wasn't flattering.

 

[Ryder71]

True... but that said, his last 4 games have been a significant improvement over his first 12 - even with a -3 and 3 SOG the past 4 games. His jump has been very noticeable, and he's even been more physical and a little better along the boards. And most importantly, he's been creating chances and looking like the offensive threat we thought we drafted.

Much like his stint last season was a tail of two tapes, so has been this season for him pre/post benching. Hopefully it gets noticed.



No, what he's saying, is that almost every single player on the roster is better away from Sprong. Not sure how much that's changed the past few games where Sprong finally decided to play like an NHLer, but it was certainly true for the first 12. And it even went for the high end skilled guys. Sprong might not have gotten many full shifts with any of them, but the time he did spend with them usually wasn't flattering.

How can you with (very limited minutes) accurately assess just how effective he'd be? How much has he played with a pivot the likes of Sid, Geno and even Brassard combined? My guess here is not much! There is not enough conclusive evidence to say what the hell we have here or not. With ZAR, Simon and such there is at least a lot more data.

 

[Riptide]

And who's he playing with compared to other such players? Plain and simple he will not flourish or even be productive with 4th line ham n egger types. It's not gonna happen and that's the way this coach wants it!

So that excuses his overall poor play? I'm good with that excusing his production and even most of the lack of creativity that we saw in the vast majority of his games... But not his poor play, the times he was out of position, the times he was meh defensively, the fact that he brought little to the table other than his offensive game and the utter lack of him (until recently) showing much of a pulse at all. That's on him, and not who his linemates were or weren't.

 

[Ryder71]

So that excuses his overall poor play? I'm good with that excusing his production and even most of the lack of creativity that we saw in the vast majority of his games... But not his poor play, the times he was out of position, the times he was meh defensively, the fact that he brought little to the table other than his offensive game and the utter lack of him (until recently) showing much of a pulse at all. That's on him, and not who his linemates were or weren't.

I see your point and this is the argument that Sully would likely use to marginalize the guy, but I think you're being a little bit petty here. Positioning has been a problem for a lot of guys, that's not to say he shouldn't be better, but that also shouldn't be a make or break issue either. Kessel's positioning isn't stellar. Guentzel isn't perfect there either. And Sheary at times when he was here was far from sound in that regard.

Defensively did anybody really expect him to be a demon on the backcheck? That's not why he was drafted and that's not why he's even getting a sniff in the NHL. You're trying to be too cute here IMO. If you expect him to do well in all these areas you're gonna be very disappointed. If he's gonna stay in this league and succeed Its gonna be predicated on offensive acumen, creativity, goals and points and very little else. Sometimes young players have growing pains and you need to allow for that. Or as I've stated repeatedly, the coach will try to thwart his efforts at this level regardless of if it hurts the team, just like he did with Cole!

 

[Riptide]

How can you with (very limited minutes) accurately assess just how effective he'd be? How much has he played with a pivot the likes of Sid, Geno and even Brassard combined? My guess here is not much! There is not enough conclusive evidence to say what the hell we have here or not. With ZAR, Simon and such there is at least a lot more data.

You're still confusing the issue. Crosby and Malkin boost pretty much everyone's numbers, but why would you put someone on their line who's poor defensively, who's offense is questionable, who brings you nothing away from his production and overall has been playing poorly? Especially when in the very limited sample size you do have, 2 of those 3 (which account for ~90% of your sample size) show that those centers are better players away from him.

And yet that hasn't stopped some from talking about how great he'd be if only he was gifted 5-10 games stapled to Malkin's wing, regardless of his play, production or how we did those games (yes some have said exactly that).

Here's the thing. Most are not saying what he will or will not be at some point down the road... we're saying what he is today (or more accurately what he was up until Nov 16th). And aside from the last four games which were very good, he's been largely meh, that doesn't provide anything other than his offensive skillset, and even that's been rather questionable. IF the last four games are the measuring stick, then he's certainly turned things up several notchs. But the idea that he should get a pass on his poor play because of who his linemates are is idiotic in the extreme - again look no further then his last 4 games... Still had crap line mates, but his play (despite some of the numbers) was actually very very good.

If he'd played like he has the past four games all season, and still only saw around 20 minutes with Crosby, Malkin or Brassard, then after 16 games, there would be a pretty legitimate bitch about that and what a disappointment it is. But he hasn't. He's played like crap for a large portion of those first 12 games, and yet there's still some crying, well if he was only playing with a star, then he wouldn't be playing like crap. It's bullshit. It's Eric Tangradi and the "give him 20-40 games on Malkin's wing to sort it out" all over again. That was shit then, and this is shit now. We desperately need to win games, and until extremely recently, Sprong's play didn't deserve any sort of promotion into the top 6/9.

 

[EightyOne]

Can we get to Stage 5, Sprongers??

 

[Riptide]

I see your point and this is the argument that Sully would likely use to marginalize the guy, but I think you're being a little bit petty here. Positioning has been a problem for a lot of guys, that's not to say he shouldn't be better, but that also shouldn't be a make or break issue either. Kessel's positioning isn't stellar. Guentzel isn't perfect there either. And Sheary at times when he was here was far from sound in that regard.

Defensively did anybody really expect him to be a demon on the backcheck? That's not why he was drafted and that's not why he's even getting a sniff in the NHL. You're trying to be too cute here IMO. If you expect him to do well in all these areas you're gonna be very disappointed. If he's gonna stay in this league and succeed Its gonna be predicated on offensive acumen, creativity, goals and points and very little else. Sometimes young players have growing pains and you need to allow for that. Or as I've stated repeatedly, the coach will try to thwart his efforts at this level regardless of if it hurts the team, just like he did with Cole!

Let me know when Sprong produces like any of Kessel, Guentzel or Sheary.

And you're just focusing on

If he's scoring at a PPG pace, I'll be a lot more forgiving about the fact that in 12 of his 16 games he brought you nothing other then being a defensive liability while on the ice. But even the most conservative estimates for a "successful" or "very good" season for Sprong this summer had him around 15-20 goals and 35-40 points. It's possible that if all went well and he was stapled to the top 6 that he might exceed those numbers... but probably not by much. Which means he needs to provide more then his just offense if he plans on making it in the NHL, because even today there's few skilled wingers who bring nothing other than their offense that have success in the NHL, and those that do are going to put up a hell of a lot more then 20g/40pts. Even Sheary who gets trashed regularly here, provided a little more then just that. But because Sprong is the new shiny penny in a jar with few pennies, exceptions are apparently supposed to be made, even when his own play dictates otherwise.

 

[Ryder71]

You're still confusing the issue. Crosby and Malkin boost pretty much everyone's numbers, but why would you put someone on their line who's poor defensively, who's offense is questionable, who brings you nothing away from his production and overall has been playing poorly? Especially when in the very limited sample size you do have, 2 of those 3 (which account for ~90% of your sample size) show that those centers are better players away from him.



If he'd played like he has the past four games all season, and still only saw around 20 minutes with Crosby, Malkin or Brassard, then after 16 games, there would be a pretty legitimate ***** about that and what a disappointment it is. But he hasn't. He's played like crap for a large portion of those first 12 games, and yet there's still some crying, well if he was only playing with a star, then he wouldn't be playing like crap. It's bull****. It's Eric Tangradi and the "give him 20-40 games on Malkin's wing to sort it out" all over again. That was **** then, and this is **** now. We desperately need to win games, and until extremely recently, Sprong's play didn't deserve any sort of promotion into the top 6/9.

I'm not gonna draw any conclusions with the role he's been placed in because it doesn't aptly fit his skillset. He's a complimentary player and he would likely never achieve much in that sort of role. You're like Sully in that regard. He has to do every little thing well, he has to have perfect board work, positioning, excel at the backcheck, block every shot on his side of the ice and on and on. Again, if that's what you want or even expect half of those things, he'll fail, congrats! Sully you win!

 

[Ryder71]

Let me know when Sprong produces like any of Kessel, Guentzel or Sheary.

And you're just focusing on

If he's scoring at a PPG pace, I'll be a lot more forgiving about the fact that in 12 of his 16 games he brought you nothing other then being a defensive liability while on the ice. But even the most conservative estimates for a "successful" or "very good" season for Sprong this summer had him around 15-20 goals and 35-40 points. It's possible that if all went well and he was stapled to the top 6 that he might exceed those numbers... but probably not by much. Which means he needs to provide more then his just offense if he plans on making it in the NHL, because even today there's few skilled wingers who bring nothing other than their offense that have success in the NHL, and those that do are going to put up a hell of a lot more then 20g/40pts. Even Sheary who gets trashed regularly here, provided a little more then just that. But because Sprong is the new shiny penny in a jar with few pennies, exceptions are apparently supposed to be made, even when his own play dictates otherwise.

I can see that this will continue to be a circular non ending debate between us so I'll say good day after this. I respectfully disagree with your perspective, and I disagree with the role that this coach placed him in. I don't believe this is solely based on performance, I believe this coach has it in for him. I think this coach is Stubborn, vile, underhanded, arrogant, disgusting, intellectually dishonest and hopefully not long for this job. I can't believe I'm saying that about a recent two time back to back stanley cup winning coach but I am. And the sooner this person is not our coach, the better off we'll be because he's only gonna get worse. Like Coach Disco before him.

 

[Icarium]

This board is something else.

Before the game "We are going to get crushed, no doubt!".
Pens win.
"Who cares, why did ZAR play that much?!? Why didn't Sprong play more?!?"

As long as we win I couldn't care less if ZAR plays for 10 seconds or 59 minutes but that's just me.

 

[Ryder71]

Can we get to Stage 5, Sprongers??

TBH I mentioned this was likely to occur before the season even started.

 

[EightyOne]

This board is something else.

Before the game "We are going to get crushed, no doubt!".
Pens win.
"Who cares, why did ZAR play that much?!? Why didn't Sprong play more?!?"

As long as we win I couldn't care less if ZAR plays for 10 seconds or 59 minutes but that's just me.

Yeah in a way. A win is a win. But a lucky win is hard to repeat. Crappy players making a play is lucky. Hell, your stars doing ALL the heavy lifting is unsustainable too. That is part of why the debates are what they are.


Ideally, you would like to see a better team structure and more balance throughout. That is likely your best bet for actual season-long success.

The Pens are not there right now.

 

[Talisman]

ZAR was bad!!. I would replace Sprong on third line taking Zar spot

 

[Chuck Norris Trophy]

Congrats to Guentzel for his first career hat trick! Sprong was awesome, as was Riikola. You better keep them playing, Sullivan. I will haunt you in your dreams if you don't.

 

[Turin]

Who was that dumbass who wanted to deal Letang for Karlsson? That was dumb. Don’t be like that guy kids

 

[Jaded-Fan]