Salary Cap: Penguins 2014-15 roster building discussion III (Contract/free agent chart in Post 1)

[Pens1566]

I understand the "deal Letang and Neal" sentiment, but I want to see them play on this team under a different coach/system first. You just don't fire the staff AND deal away world class talent like that at the same time.

 

[The Tang]

I understand the "deal Letang and Neal" sentiment, but I want to see them play on this team under a different coach/system first. You just don't fire the staff AND deal away world class talent like that at the same time.

The problem with Letang is that his NTC kicks in July 1, and if you don't move him you're on the hook for $7.25mm over the next 8 years. That's a lot of risk for a "see how he responds to a new coach" approach, too much in my opinion.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

I understand the "deal Letang and Neal" sentiment, but I want to see them play on this team under a different coach/system first. You just don't fire the staff AND deal away world class talent like that at the same time.

I think we waited two years too long to wait and see. This team is at a point where a change in management isn't going to be enough. Dealing a guy like Letang may be tough, but it has the potential to get back some major pieces that could help this team going forward.

 

[Shockmaster]

BB is a guy i have questions about, i really don't know what type of player hes going to end up being, i haven't seen enough out of him to think he should be given a job in the top 6 next year.

Disco Dan, is that you?

That's the same kind of thinking that keeps Bennett on the third line and Despres in WBS. Health permitting, Bennett should start next season on the top 6 (assuming he isn't traded). What do the Penguins have to lose? A few regular season games in October? OH THE HORROR!

 

[mpp9]

I have no clue why people are so against dangling Neal. You don't move him for the sake of moving him. But you certainly see what you can get.

Letang, I can understand wanting to see him under a different coach and system. The guy played tremendous hockey this postseason. Unless you get an offer you can't turn down where we address our lack of quality forward depth, I'd say keep him next season.

May seem ass backwards, but Sutter is the first guy I'd be willing to move. And he was one of our few consistently great forwards these playoffs. I can just see him being pissed about the trade rumors and using his playoffs as a means to get paid.

I'd definitely look into moving one of Kunitz/Dupuis. They're only going to get worse. Kunitz shouldn't be more than a plug on a line in our top 6. And Dupuis should never see a regular shift in the top 6 again.

I think Colorado will look to make a big move for a D-man. We need to be listening there.

Winnipeg will likely dangle Kane at the draft.

Vancouver may still be looking to deal Kesler.

And despite what many believe, this free agency class is actually pretty damn good.

We can totally change the supporting cast of this team in one offseason.

 

[Pens1566]

The problem with Letang is that his NTC kicks in July 1, and if you don't move him you're on the hook for $7.25mm over the next 8 years. That's a lot of risk for a "see how he responds to a new coach" approach, too much in my opinion.

And you deal him at his lowest value since he broke into the league. A guy coming off a stroke that is two years removed from what might have been a norris trophy season had he not been knocked out.

I think we waited two years too long to wait and see. This team is at a point where a change in management isn't going to be enough. Dealing a guy like Letang may be tough, but it has the potential to get back some major pieces that could help this team going forward.

See above. I think you'd be hard pressed to get a return that is worth it.

 

[BumFortyOne]

I have no clue why people are so against dangling Neal. You don't move him for the sake of moving him. But you certainly see what you can get.

I'm not against listening to offers for Neal, but I just haven't seen a single suggestion for a deal involving him that makes any sense. I and others I think are just saying that he's a pretty good value for his contract, and there's not really a point in moving him when he's basically the best wing on the team.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Disco Dan, is that you?

That's the same kind of thinking that keeps Bennett on the third line and Despres in WBS. Health permitting, Bennett should start next season on the top 6 (assuming he isn't traded). What do the Penguins have to lose? A few regular season games in October? OH THE HORROR!

That's fine if you want to try him out and see how it goes at the beginning of the season.

But my point is have you seen enough out of BB to think hes a top 6 winger on a cup contender? i haven't seen enough out of him to think that.

 

[mpp9]

I'm not against listening to offers for Neal, but I just haven't seen a single suggestion for a deal involving him that makes any sense. I and others I think are just saying that he's a pretty good value for his contract, and there's not really a point in moving him when he's basically the best wing on the team.

We're talking about dangling a quality center in Sutter, a #1D in Letang, a 40 goal scorer in Neal and an organization that has among the best depth in the league on defense.

I think if you package those assets, you can bring in any number of players.

It's about addressing needs on the team. And it's blatantly obvious that we need players who create room for our centers and stick up for them when they're constantly getting ****ed with in postseason hockey. Neal doesn't do either. A guy like Kane? Yes.

 

[SuburbanRhythm]

I'll have to check back at Post 1 after work but here's my gut feeling of what needs to happen, given that we'll have a new coach and system next year, hopefully one that knows how to properly utilize his players and hide their weaknesses. In the end, it's pointless to speculate on moves until you know who the GM and coach will be, know their style, their connections, etc.


1) Any new GM or coach worth a crap will remember what Kunitz - Geno - Neal did in Sid's absence and make them a regular line at least for next year and see what happens. Some continuity is a good thing. That was the best line in hockey when it was together and well balanced for the most part if a little soff defensively at times. You start there so the new team has at least one tried-and-true line to fall back on.

2) Any new GM or coach worth a crap will get a commitment from Sid to be more vocal in his leadership and surround him with two, actual, bonafide wingers. San Jose might just get blown up this year. Patrick Marleau anyone? Possibly they could move a big package that includes Kunitz, Letang ($), 1st for a bigtime RW + proven young D.

3) Build around Maatta and Despres on D, see if you can keep Niskanen (assuming Letang and his salary get moved in situation like the one above -- otherwise it won't work). Keeping Bortuzzo around makes a lot of sense; he'll get stronger on his feet. You don't want to regret moving that guy 3 years from now when he's a freakin' animal out there, potentially.

4) Anyone else not named Vitale is expendable / movable for picks in the next 2 drafts or solid 3rd line types of the variety that seem to grow on trees in Boston and Chicago.

Have fun lads. Will be back a little later once we know more.

a billion times this

Whether it's Bennett or Dupuis on the RW, summer should be spent getting an elite LW for Crosby.

 

[joeyjake5]

A GM's job is to analyze a players worth according to his productivity and contract.

Looking at two players on the Pens, Scuds and letang, what would another GM give the Pens in return.

Scuds who is non-productive and has 3 years left at 3.3MM per year.

Letang who at times is a worldbeater and at other times makes boneheaded plays and is not that great in defensive zone and has a bad contract at 8 yrs at 7.25MM per year.

This is what the Pens GM is up against and RS is responsible for these contracts.

 

[Shockmaster]

That's fine if you want to try him out and see how it goes at the beginning of the season.

But my point is have you seen enough out of BB to think hes a top 6 winger on a cup contender? i haven't seen enough out of him to think that.

Well maybe if the coach would stop shafting young players in favor of lesser veteran players we'd have a better idea.

 

[The Tang]

I have no clue why people are so against dangling Neal. You don't move him for the sake of moving him. But you certainly see what you can get.

If you deal Neal for a winger, you still need another winger. If you deal Neal for something else, you need two wingers. You're looking at a lateral move.

And you deal him at his lowest value since he broke into the league. A guy coming off a stroke that is two years removed from what might have been a norris trophy season had he not been knocked out.

As I said his NTC clause kicks in July 1 and it doesn't seem like he has any intention of going anywhere. It's now or never regardless of how the cards fell. His value may be at it's lowest but it doesn't mean he has no value. 8 years, $7.25mm a year for the level of play he has shown recently (including earlier in the season before the stroke) is a massive risk. And if he bombs, you're stuck with him for that whole contract.

 

[BumFortyOne]

We're talking about dangling a quality center in Sutter, a #1D in Letang, a 40 goal scorer in Neal and an organization that has among the best depth in the league on defense.

I think if you package those assets, you can bring in any number of players.

It's about addressing needs on the team. And it's blatantly obvious that we need players who create room for our centers and stick up for them when they're constantly getting ****ed with in postseason hockey. Neal doesn't do either. A guy like Kane? Yes.

I don't think anyone on here is saying that they definitely wouldn't trade Neal if he was moved in a package that brought in an upgrade, but not a single person who has said they are in favor of moving Neal has suggested a deal that would make sense.

KIRK threw out Neal for Kane, which to me makes no sense from Winnipeg's perspective, and I don't think that I'd add much, if any, to Neal to bring in Kane. So unless anybody has any realistic ideas for what Neal could bring back that would also improve the team, it just seems like a curious thing to be talking about.

I get the talk of moving Letang because defense is a position of strength and moving Letang would free up the money to retain Niskanen. But Neal is probably the best winger on the team and wing is obviously the biggest organizational weakness so I don't see how moving him would improve the team unless you're looking just to shake the team up, which is a fair point on its own.

 

[Pens1566]

As I said his NTC clause kicks in July 1 and it doesn't seem like he has any intention of going anywhere. It's now or never regardless of how the cards fell. His value may be at it's lowest but it doesn't mean he has no value. 8 years, $7.25mm a year for the level of play he has shown recently (including earlier in the season before the stroke) is a massive risk. And if he bombs, you're stuck with him for that whole contract.

Considering that guys like Subban will likely be signing deals in the near future for more than that and the cap is going up to 71+ next year, I'm willing to take the risk that Letang will play more like he did 2 years ago. Which is worth the cap hit on his next contract. This isn't Mike Green we're talking about. He's one of the ~5 most dynamic blueliners in the game when healthy.

 

[Shockmaster]

I don't think anyone on here is saying that they definitely wouldn't trade Neal if he was moved in a package that brought in an upgrade, but not a single person who has said they are in favor of moving Neal has suggested a deal that would make sense.

KIRK threw out Neal for Kane, which to me makes no sense from Winnipeg's perspective, and I don't think that I'd add much, if any, to Neal to bring in Kane. So unless anybody has any realistic ideas for what Neal could bring back that would also improve the team, it just seems like a curious thing to be talking about.

I get the talk of moving Letang because defense is a position of strength and moving Letang would free up the money to retain Niskanen. But Neal is probably the best winger on the team and wing is obviously the biggest organizational weakness so I don't see how moving him would improve the team unless you're looking just to shake the team up, which is a fair point on its own.

You must not be paying close attention to the situation with Evander Kane and the Jets. By all accounts they are looking to dump him this off season as they've had issues with him. A 1-for-1 player swap isn't out of the realm of possibilities at all.

 

[mpp9]

If you deal Neal for a winger, you still need another winger. If you deal Neal for something else, you need two wingers. You're looking at a lateral move.

We're not making one move only this offseason. Of that I'm positive. Dealing Neal for a winger who creates his own room and sticks up for our franchise players is something I'd be onboard with.

If Neal goes, you move another piece or two to address our other holes. And use free agency as another means.

 

[Hottubber]

Its too bad Philly is in the same division, cause a Simmonds + for Letang would make sense for both teams

 

[The Tang]

Considering that guys like Subban will likely be signing deals in the near future for more than that and the cap is going up to 71+ next year, I'm willing to take the risk that Letang will play more like he did 2 years ago. Which is worth the cap hit on his next contract. This isn't Mike Green we're talking about. He's one of the ~5 most dynamic blueliners in the game when healthy.

And that's another major problem. I don't care how good a player is, if they can't stay healthy and play close to a full season why bother? Subban is also better defensviely and more consistent than Letang so of course he's going to get more.

 

[mpp9]

I don't think anyone on here is saying that they definitely wouldn't trade Neal if he was moved in a package that brought in an upgrade, but not a single person who has said they are in favor of moving Neal has suggested a deal that would make sense.

KIRK threw out Neal for Kane, which to me makes no sense from Winnipeg's perspective, and I don't think that I'd add much, if any, to Neal to bring in Kane. So unless anybody has any realistic ideas for what Neal could bring back that would also improve the team, it just seems like a curious thing to be talking about.

I get the talk of moving Letang because defense is a position of strength and moving Letang would free up the money to retain Niskanen. But Neal is probably the best winger on the team and wing is obviously the biggest organizational weakness so I don't see how moving him would improve the team unless you're looking just to shake the team up, which is a fair point on its own.

Our winger group sucks. And Neal was hot garbage for much of this postseason. That position needs overhauled. If including Neal in any deal makes us better, you do it.

SJ just blew a 3-0 series lead. And Winnipeg is unhappy with Kane. I'd try and find a team looking to shake things up and find a match in personnel.

 

[SuburbanRhythm]

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.850m) / Evgeni Malkin ($9.500m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
???????????? ($?.??) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Brian Gibbons ($0.750m) / Brandon Sutter ($3.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Zach Sill ($0.650m) / Joe Vitale ($0.650m) / Adam Payerl ($0.627m)
Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kris Letang ($7.250m) / Paul Martin ($5.000m)
Simon Despres ($1.150m) / Olli Maatta ($0.894m)
Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m) / Brian Dumoulin ($0.832m)
???????????? ($?.??)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.600m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,402,500; BONUSES: $308,333
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $9,697,500

Give Scuderi the Michalek treatment. Whatever you can give, those picks + cap relief help this team immensely more than Scuderi does over the next 3 seasons.

Let Niskanen walk, unless he'll take $4m. If that can happen, he slides back in to the 2nd pair, Despres to the 3rd. Otherwise, a veteran guy to use in the 2nd/3rd pair as needed. Mike Weaver/Francis Bouillon type, preferably tall enough to ride the Thunderbolt though.

Young/cheap on the 4th line. I'll live with some mistakes in a tradeoff for hard/annoying to play against.

Basically, about $9m to spend on a true 2nd wheel for Crosby, and fill that defense spot.

Niskanen + Moulson? Vanek + Weaver?

 

[Pens1566]

And that's another major problem. I don't care how good a player is, if they can't stay healthy and play close to a full season why bother? Subban is also better defensviely and more consistent than Letang so of course he's going to get more.

The whole team has been a walking MASH unit for years now. Other than the stroke this season and the concussion(?) in 11-12 he actually has played close to full seasons every year. By your logic Crosby should also get his bags packed.

Agree to disagree on the bolded. And Subban is a PP specialist. Outside of that he's overrated. Not to mention getting punched by teammates.

 

[BumFortyOne]

You must not be paying close attention to the situation with Evander Kane and the Jets. By all accounts they are looking to dump him this off season as they've had issues with him. A 1-for-1 player swap isn't out of the realm of possibilities at all.

Our winger group sucks. And Neal was hot garbage for much of this postseason. That position needs overhauled. If including Neal in any deal makes us better, you do it.

SJ just blew a 3-0 series lead. And Winnipeg is unhappy with Kane. I'd try and find a team looking to shake things up and find a match in personnel.

If Kane really is on the outs in Winnipeg, then I'd look to pick him up for Sutter+ and hang onto Neal if possible.

I'm not sure you can count on being able to swing multiple big deals to completely turn over the roster in one offseason. If Neal was moved in a lateral deal after another sure-fire top-six winger was brought in I wouldn't be opposed at all, but until then I'd rather keep him.

 

[mpp9]

If Kane really is on the outs in Winnipeg, then I'd look to pick him up for Sutter+ and hang onto Neal if possible.

I'm not sure you can count on being able to swing multiple big deals to completely turn over the roster in one offseason. If Neal was moved in a lateral deal after another sure-fire top-six winger was brought in I wouldn't be opposed at all, but until then I'd rather keep him.

SJ needs a D-man. And likely a 3C if Pavelski is moved or is a winger there longterm. Decent fit with what we have to offer.

As for Kane. We'll see, but if he's being dangled, we'd be stupid not to be willing to give up Neal for him. Kane would have done way more in this series than Neal did. And it's not close.

We have plenty of assets to fill more than one hole.

 

[The Tang]

The whole team has been a walking MASH unit for years now. Other than the stroke this season and the concussion(?) in 11-12 he actually has played close to full seasons every year. By your logic Crosby should also get his bags packed.

Agree to disagree on the bolded. And Subban is a PP specialist. Outside of that he's overrated. Not to mention getting punched by teammates.

it's not just about contract and games played. Letang makes numerous idiotic plays that may not be fixable regardless of how skilled he is. Further, Letang is just not the level of Crosby so the comparison isn't totally there.

I think in general we agree to disagree on the matter.