Salary Cap: Penguins 2013-14 cap/roster building discussion (Contract chart in Post #2)

[darkbrew*]

The problem with people comparing this team to the 2009 team is that 2009 team was more a "catching lightning in a bottle" team than a "this looks like a dynasty" team.

Yes, you need luck to win the Cup. So every team that's won has, at some point, got a lucky bounce or a lucky break. But that 2009 team is arguably the weakest "on paper" Stanley Cup champion of the past decade. It took *both* Crosby and Malkin going into God-mode, as well as ridiculous contributions from a guy like Max Talbot (who you couldn't have predicted or planned for) to win it.

So my point being, you really shouldn't look at that roster and say, "we're as good as that team" if you're trying to build a Cup champion. Because I don't think that blueprint will ever win you a Cup again. Too much stuff has to go right, that otherwise is unlikely, for it to happen.

I think most people would disagree with you about that team... that team had a great third line, one area where this team was lacking as well as a shutdown pair that could actually shutdown people.

At worst they were an average cup winner. The current team just needed more guys like Talbot that actually had some skill, and just better D/team D. Plus you know Fleury of 2009 would be nice

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think most people would disagree with you about that team... that team had a great third line, one area where this team was lacking as well as a shutdown pair that could actually shutdown people.

At worst they were an average cup winner. The current team just needed more guys like Talbot that actually had some skill, and just better D/team D. Plus you know Fleury of 2009 would be nice

When you look at that team "on paper", it just doesn't look like one you'd put money on to win the Cup.

It was potent down the middle with Sid, Geno, and Staal, and yes, had a very good third line. But Kunitz/Guerin on the first line, Fedotenko/Talbot on the second? That's not exactly what one envisions when one thinks of a Cup champion.

Add to that, it had a very meh sort of defense. Gonchar was still an elite offensive defenseman and Orpik was still useful, but our "shutdown pairing" was Gill and Scuderi, for heaven's sake. The third pairing was an up and coming Letang paired with a very vanilla Eaton. Compare that defense corps to any of the Cup contenders since 2009.

IMO, it just wasn't a very good overall roster. It took super human efforts from Sid and Geno (which they haven't repeated since), some favorable match-ups on the way to the final, and Max Talbot finding a scoring touch he hasn't had since junior for them to win it all.

So I just don't think it's a good idea to compare our current roster to that one, in order to gauge how close the current roster might be to winning the Cup.

 

[KIRK]

I wouldn't be opposed to sending one of Kunitz/Neal out if a Kesler, E.Kane, or Wheeler are landed.

Really anything to break up this dysfunctional family. Fleury/Letang would be a better place to start, i agree.

Why not two?

Kunitz, Neal, rights to Sutter for Ladd, Kane.

 

[KIRK]

When you look at that team "on paper", it just doesn't look like one you'd put money on to win the Cup.

It was potent down the middle with Sid, Geno, and Staal, and yes, had a very good third line. But Kunitz/Guerin on the first line, Fedotenko/Talbot on the second? That's not exactly what one envisions when one thinks of a Cup champion.

Add to that, it had a very meh sort of defense. Gonchar was still an elite offensive defenseman and Orpik was still useful, but our "shutdown pairing" was Gill and Scuderi, for heaven's sake. The third pairing was an up and coming Letang paired with a very vanilla Eaton. Compare that defense corps to any of the Cup contenders since 2009.

IMO, it just wasn't a very good overall roster. It took super human efforts from Sid and Geno (which they haven't repeated since), some favorable match-ups on the way to the final, and Max Talbot finding a scoring touch he hasn't had since junior for them to win it all.

So I just don't think it's a good idea to compare our current roster to that one, in order to gauge how close the current roster might be to winning the Cup.

The 2008 team was better on paper

 

[Waffle Fries]

Why not two?

Kunitz, Neal, rights to Sutter for Ladd, Kane.

It sounds wonderful. I hate being realistic, but now that the season is over I'm thinking about legitimate trades.

What is the incentive for the Jets to do this deal? Is Sutter worth downgrading two top six wingers?

 

[Zen Arcade]

If nothing else, Winnipeg is a potential taker for Fleury.

 

[KIRK]

It sounds wonderful. I hate being realistic, but now that the season is over I'm thinking about legitimate trades.

What is the incentive for the Jets to do this deal? Is Sutter worth downgrading two top six wingers?

None. Fine. Happy? Can't even allow me that one little dream. Seriously?

Side comment . . . as noted earlier, I'd move one of Letang or Martin. Prefer Letang, but a team like Winnipeg (or San Jose) would be quite happy with a defenseman like Martin.

 

[KIRK]

If nothing else, Winnipeg is a potential taker for Fleury.

Neal, rights to Sutter, Fleury, Pens 1st for Kane, Winnipeg 1st (#11).

Flame away.

 

[darkbrew*]

None. Fine. Happy? Can't even allow me that one little dream. Seriously?

Side comment . . . as noted earlier, I'd move one of Letang or Martin. Prefer Letang, but a team like Winnipeg (or San Jose) would be quite happy with a defenseman like Martin.

This team could really use a guy like Mark Methot on Ottawa. Provides alot of what the pens are missing. A good version of Orpik basically.

Who else is similar since I'm not sure if hes available.

 

[KIRK]

This team could really use a guy like Mark Methot on Ottawa. Provides alot of what the pens are missing. A good version of Orpik basically.

Who else is similar since I'm not sure if hes available.

Meh.

Interesting story . . . a week before trading Foligno to Columbus for Methot, Bryan Murray inquired about Michalek. Talks went nowhere because Murray couldn't add salary and Shero wanted only to dump it to go all in for Parise and Suter. Like he couldn't have traded Michalek for Foligno and some salary to even it out AND then dealt with being over the cap in case Parise AND Suter both signed.

 

[darkbrew*]

Meh.

Interesting story . . . a week before trading Foligno to Columbus for Methot, Bryan Murray inquired about Michalek. Talks went nowhere because Murray couldn't add salary and Shero wanted only to dump it to go all in for Parise and Suter. Like he couldn't have traded Michalek for Foligno and some salary to even it out AND then dealt with being over the cap in case Parise AND Suter both signed.

Yep i remember this. After Methot got to Ottawa he had a career resurgence and was really great last year. This year was down a bit i believe, but Anderson was also completely human again which explains how Ottawa dropped so far.

 

[KIRK]

Yep i remember this. After Methot got to Ottawa he had a career resurgence and was really great last year. This year was down a bit i believe, but Anderson was also completely human again which explains how Ottawa dropped so far.

If Ottawa is dumping dollars, then I inquire about Chris Neil. Don't care if fans of other teams hate him. I hated Ruutu until he was here. Kaspar was the anti-christ as far as I was concerned, and I celebrated like crazy the day he was acquired.

 

[oconnor9sean]

If Dallas were interested in Letang, all things considered, what would you expect in return?

 

[Zen Arcade]

Neal, rights to Sutter, Fleury, Pens 1st for Kane, Winnipeg 1st (#11).

Flame away.

I was thinking a lot smaller than that, interesting, but that fills one hole while opening two other ones up front.

I'd also need to see who was running the show as a GM to know whether that draft pick would be worth anything.

 

[darkbrew*]

Neal would be a great pickup, but from talking to people I know he seems to be an Ottawa lifer. Really ingrained in the city/community. Isn't he Derrek Engelland without the ability to emergency D switch at this point in his career?

Engelland was shockingly good the times he was on the fourth line if thats what we want.

 

[KIRK]

If Dallas were interested in Letang, all things considered, what would you expect in return?

Any chance of a certain young Russian?

Chiasson, Garbutt, 1st perhaps

 

[Gurglesons]

Any chance of a certain young Russian?

Chiasson, Garbutt, 1st perhaps

If this is what we are accepting for Letang, we would be much better off keeping him.

I follow Dallas and LA as my west coast teams and Chiasson fell quickly off at the end of the year and did nothing in the playoffs.

 

[darkbrew*]

If this is what we are accepting for Letang, we would be much better off keeping him.

I follow Dallas and LA as my west coast teams and Chiasson fell quickly off at the end of the year and did nothing in the playoffs.

So you are saying he would fit in great? Sick burn!

 

[Gurglesons]

Meh.

Interesting story . . . a week before trading Foligno to Columbus for Methot, Bryan Murray inquired about Michalek. Talks went nowhere because Murray couldn't add salary and Shero wanted only to dump it to go all in for Parise and Suter. Like he couldn't have traded Michalek for Foligno and some salary to even it out AND then dealt with being over the cap in case Parise AND Suter both signed.

Why would we take on another center when we were trying to shave off salary? We had just traded for Sutter who was a lauded 3rd line center anyways.

I mean, hindsight is one thing.. but why would we go for two 3rd line centers when we were looking for wingers?

 

[Gurglesons]

So you are saying he would fit in great? Sick burn!

He'd probably be a good fit for Sutter's line, but I bet we could get away with dealing Despres for him. I would really like to see us look into trading Fleury to a team like Winnepeg or Minnesota who is in need of a goalie desperately. He's got one year left and he's confidence in Pittsburgh is shot, to be honest plus it lets us get rid of an upcoming UFA who is probably going to still want 4 - 5 million a year.

 

[Zen Arcade]

Why would we take on another center when we were trying to shave off salary? We had just traded for Sutter who was a lauded 3rd line center anyways.

I mean, hindsight is one thing.. but why would we go for two 3rd line centers when we were looking for wingers?

Because Foligno is a winger?

 

[Waffle Fries]

If Dallas were interested in Letang, all things considered, what would you expect in return?

I'm not as high on Chiasson as others here are. If I'm trading Letang (I want to give him a chance under the new coach), then I want it to be a close to elite top six winger or someone with that potential.

I'd add to Letang for Nichushkin, but I don't think that would interest you, which I completely understand. That kid is special.

I don't know if I see a deal between the two teams for Letang to be honest. I feel there's no middle ground between forwards that Stars fans would want to trade for Letang and forwards I'd want to receive for Letang.

Neal would be a great pickup, but from talking to people I know he seems to be an Ottawa lifer. Really ingrained in the city/community. Isn't he Derrek Engelland without the ability to emergency D switch at this point in his career?

Engelland was shockingly good the times he was on the fourth line if thats what we want.

At first I thought you were talking abut James Neal. Then I realized you meant Chris Neil. I was so confused for a minute

 

[Gurglesons]

Because Foligno is a winger?

Weird for some reason I thought he was used as a center with the Sens.

 

[bar1]

Funny how some blame the secondary lines not scoring when the postseason was all about primary scoring going soft.

Everybody with 25+ goals in regular season:
- Crosby (1 goal in 13 games!)
- Kunitz (3)
- Neal (2)

Guys who did what they are suppose to, or more:
+ Malkin (6)
+ Jokinen (7)
+ Sutter (5)

Even with Fleury there would have been a chance if the top dudes would do what they are paid to do.

Anyhow:
Trade Fleury, Neal, Letang
Get a real goalie and a real scorer.

 

[canadianguy77]

Funny how some blame the secondary lines not scoring when the postseason was all about primary scoring going soft.

Everybody with 25+ goals in regular season:
- Crosby (1 goal in 13 games!)
- Kunitz (3)
- Neal (2)

Guys who did what they are suppose to, or more:
+ Malkin (6)
+ Jokinen (7)
+ Sutter (5)

Even with Fleury there would have been a chance if the top dudes would do what they are paid to do.

Anyhow:
Trade Fleury, Neal, Letang
Get a real goalie and a real scorer.

We never had secondary scoring all season long. Why would anyone be angry that we finally had it in the playoffs? ( first round)