Peak Forsberg v Peak Yzerman

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lol I love how part of the justification for Yzerman being better than Lemieux is that Lemieux would have 300 points if he tried as hard as Yzerman who had 155. So 199 > 155 only reaching 66% of his potential?

Right lol. So hard earned 155 is better than 199... so dumb

 

[newfy]

Yzerman is just like Niedermayer. With Niedermayer, people pretend the level he was at from 04-10 was the level he was at for his entire career. With Yzerman, people pretend the great defensive game he played from 96-01 is how he played D his entire career. He was the definition of a one way player in his early years. Having said that, the gap he had over his team mates and any non Gretzky/Lemieux influenced player was ridiculous. No amount of "2 way" game is going to make up for that.

I also think too many people swing this wayyyy too far the other way like you are right now. He wasnt a selke winner but he wasnt floating at center ice like some people make it seem. He was a decent two way player for sure, but on bad teams that got scored on a lot he looked worse than he was and was asked to do too much

 

[82Ninety42011]

Forsberg for me as he's the more complete player at his peak. Yzerman is a strange case though as he had two different careers for me. He started out lights out offence then turned into a great 2-way player second half of his career.

 

[Albatros]

I also think too many people swing this wayyyy too far the other way like you are right now. He wasnt a selke winner but he wasnt floating at center ice like some people make it seem. He was a decent two way player for sure, but on bad teams that got scored on a lot he looked worse than he was and was asked to do too much

The Red Wings won the Norris Division that year and the year before though, had made the Conference Finals in 1988. One of the best teams in the league arguably. Yzerman deserves his share of credit for that obviously, but then we get back to the defensive play before Bowman issue.

 

[psycat]

Didn't see Yzerman at his offensive peak but Forsberg was a better two-way player. Can't really vote.

 

[nowhereman]

I'll take Forsberg. He was a better all-around player at his peak, while Yzerman focused almost entirely on offense and lacked much of a physical punch. Yzerman may have put up 155 points but, if adjusted for era, his offensive peak isn't really all that far off from Forsberg. Where they differ is that Stevie Y didn't become a defensive stalwart until much later in his career.

Yzerman is just like Niedermayer. With Niedermayer, people pretend the level he was at from 04-10 was the level he was at for his entire career. With Yzerman, people pretend the great defensive game he played from 96-01 is how he played D his entire career. He was the definition of a one way player in his early years. Having said that, the gap he had over his team mates and any non Gretzky/Lemieux influenced player was ridiculous. No amount of "2 way" game is going to make up for that.

I agree with your general summarization, however, there was a short but distinct dearth of offensive superstars around the NHL in the late 80s/early 90s. It was guys like Nicholls, Mullen, Carson, Robitaille and Brown near the top and most of the top scorers played with Gretzky and Lemieux (or on the Oilers).

It wasn't until Lindros, Sakic, Forsberg, Jagr, Selanne, etc. started to take over the scoring stats that it was harder to pull away from the pack, which might not favor the optics of Forsberg's dominance. With their adjusted numbers being in the same ballpark, I do actually think Forsberg's two-way play makes up for it. Forsberg was also a much better playoff performer at his peak, while it took a while for Yzerman to put it together.

 

[Czech Your Math]

I'll take Forsberg. He was a better all-around player at his peak, while Yzerman focused almost entirely on offense and lacked much of a physical punch. Yzerman may have put up 155 points but, if adjusted for era, his offensive peak isn't really all that far off from Forsberg. Where they differ is that Stevie Y didn't become a defensive stalwart until much later in his career.


I agree with your general summarization, however, there was a short but distinct dearth of offensive superstars around the NHL in the late 80s/early 90s. It was guys like Nicholls, Mullen, Carson, Robitaille and Brown near the top and most of the top scorers played with Gretzky and Lemieux (or on the Oilers).

It wasn't until Lindros, Sakic, Forsberg, Jagr, Selanne, etc. started to take over the scoring stats that it was harder to pull away from the pack, which might not favor the optics of Forsberg's dominance. With their adjusted numbers being in the same ballpark, I do actually think Forsberg's two-way play makes up for it. Forsberg was also a much better playoff performer at his peak, while it took a while for Yzerman to put it together.

This is basically how I see it as well. I might take Yzerman over Forsberg for a stretch of years (so perhaps more prime than peak), especially on a mediocre/weak team, because Forsberg's going to miss a lot of games in some seasons and it might cost the team at least one playoff berth, but at his best Forsberg was better than Yzerman IMO. About even with him as a scorer (around Malkin/Selanne level for each), a more effective all-around player at even strength, and a consistent playoff beast.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Yzerman . I think Yzerman is more compareable to Sakic becausae he was better for longer and Forsberg is more comparable to Fedorov. Fedorov and Forsberg both could completely dominate a game and take over but they didn't do it over a long period of time. Plus they both left the teams they reached the holy grail with and never hit their peak again .

Disagree with the idea that Forsberg is more comparable to Fedorov because he didn’t dominate over a long period of time.

Top 10 Point Seasons:
Yzerman: 6
Forsberg: 5
Fedorov: 2

Top 10 Point/Game Seasons:
Forsberg: 8
Yzerman: 7
Fedorov: 3

As you can see, Forsberg is clearly closer to Yzerman here than Fedorov in terms of length he was an elite player. And he did this despite all of the missed time from injuries.

Additionally, Fedorov is a guy who typically receives the benefit of the doubt in debates due to his playoff success. Well, that benefit of the doubt falls on its face when compared to Forsberg.

Playoffs:
Forsberg: 171 pts in 151 games
Fedorov: 176 pts in 183 games

Forsberg was a guy who was consistently elite. Injuries, not inconsistent play, are the only things that kept him from more.

 

[amnesiac]

Yzerman. 155 points is 155 points...

I do think Forsberg was at his peak longer and more often though (just not many full seasons).

Bernie Nichols had 150 pts that season too. Just sayin.

But Stevie was still 3rd in scoring behind Mario (199P) and Wayne (168P) on a shit Wings team, and thats good enough for me.

 

[Steven Toast]

Yzerman for me.

From 1987 to 1989 (aged 22-25), Yzerman scored 177-207-384 in 223 GP. Only Gretzky (490 points) and Lemeiux (459 points) had more in that time. Fourth place was the underrated Nicholls with 340 points.

In this stretch Yzerman scored at a 1.72 PPG pace (141 points in a 82 game year). Again only Greztky (2.31) and Lemeiux (2.13) were ahead. 4th place was Nicholls (1.52).

Its not like Yzerman had much support during this time in Detroit.

So Yzerman had a continuous stretch of hockey where he was pretty clearly the 3rd best offensive player in the league. Only behind the two best offensive players in league history, who were both either in their primes and just past their primes.

I don't think Forsberg ever had a stretch like this in his career. Closest he has in 2003-04. He was 6th in points 47-114-161 in 114 GP and first in ppg (1.41), 2nd place being Lemeuix with 1.30.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Peak Forsberg

 

[wetcoast]

I think Yzerman's peak season was more impressive than any of Forsberg's overall, but at the same time, while he didn't have a lot of help, he also played a ton of minutes. Forsberg's efficiency in '03 was extremely impressive both in terms of production and dominating GF%. It would be interesting to see what Forsberg would have done that year with minutes more in line with say, Naslund, who, as a Canucks fan, was clearly not on the same level. If we're voting for best seasons, I'd give Yzerman the edge, but if we're just looking at who was the best at their best, I think it's close, but I'd lean Forsberg. I think offensively it was close, but Forsberg was the more rounded player while at his offensive peak.

This is it for me and Foppa also was the rare players who increased his goal scoring in the playoffs even in his peak.