Peak Forsberg v Peak Yzerman

[Ghetty Green]

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[bobholly39]

Yzerman. 155 points is 155 points...

I do think Forsberg was at his peak longer and more often though (just not many full seasons).

 

[jetsforever]

Yzerman, both as a player and GM

 

[Outl4w]

Yzerman . I think Yzerman is more compareable to Sakic becausae he was better for longer and Forsberg is more comparable to Fedorov. Fedorov and Forsberg both could completely dominate a game and take over but they didn't do it over a long period of time. Plus they both left the teams they reached the holy grail with and never hit their peak again .

 

[newfy]

Its actuallly pathetic that Forsberg got any votes, forget that Yzerman is only winning 15-10 right now when talking about his 19988/89 season.

Yzermans 155 point season was against prime Gretzky and peak Lemieux. Yzerman had more even strength points than Gretzky and 1 less even strength point than Lemeiux that year. Yzermans power play did not have close to the help that Lemeiux did with a dman like Coffey, which made up the difference in points between the 2 of them. Yzerman was working with Chiasson on the point and the second highest scoring dman on his team was Rick Zombo with a close to career high 21 points that year. Yzerman led the league in even strength goals by 4 that year. On a worse team, Yzerman was on the ice for a lot less goals against than Mario as well

Despite the clear team advantage, Lemeiux only had one more even strength point. Yzerman won the Pearson voted by his peers over the best season Lemieux ever had and a prime Gretzky. Forsberg honestly can't come close to what Yzerman did that year.

Being that close to Gretzky and Lemeiux at their best, including winning a Pearson, is significantly more impressive than a 29 goal season with a hart trophy but losing the Pearson to a guy like Markus Naslund (who was great, but not close to who Yzerman was competing with)

 

[Video Nasty]

Yzerman clearly.

I suspect some of the votes for Forsberg come from fans of the Colorado/Detroit rivalry who were only familiar with post age 30 two way Yzerman.

 

[Albatros]

Yzermans 155 point season was against prime Gretzky and peak Lemieux.

And Bernie Nicholls scored 150 that year.

 

[Regal]

Its actuallly pathetic that Forsberg got any votes, forget that Yzerman is only winning 15-10 right now when talking about his 19988/89 season.

Yzermans 155 point season was against prime Gretzky and peak Lemieux. Yzerman had more even strength points than Gretzky and 1 less even strength point than Lemeiux that year. Yzermans power play did not have close to the help that Lemeiux did with a dman like Coffey, which made up the difference in points between the 2 of them. Yzerman was working with Chiasson on the point and the second highest scoring dman on his team was Rick Zombo with a close to career high 21 points that year. Yzerman led the league in even strength goals by 4 that year. On a worse team, Yzerman was on the ice for a lot less goals against than Mario as well

Despite the clear team advantage, Lemeiux only had one more even strength point. Yzerman won the Pearson voted by his peers over the best season Lemieux ever had and a prime Gretzky. Forsberg honestly can't come close to what Yzerman did that year.

Being that close to Gretzky and Lemeiux at their best, including winning a Pearson, is significantly more impressive than a 29 goal season with a hart trophy but losing the Pearson to a guy like Markus Naslund (who was great, but not close to who Yzerman was competing with)

The 80s had a few Pearson head-scratchers. I think a lot of players were voting relative to expectations. I don't think anyone thought he was particularly close to Lemieux

 

[Video Nasty]

And Bernie Nicholls scored 150 that year.

On a team that scored 63 more goals and had Gretzky.

Yzerman scored almost 21 % of Detroit’s goals and was in on 49.5% of them. He was +17 on a team that got out scored by 3 goals and was a .500 team.

Why downplay the fact that Yzerman has the most points in a season by a player not named Gretzky and Lemieux?

 

[Albatros]

Why downplay the fact that Yzerman has the most points in a season by a player not named Gretzky and Lemieux?

Why would mentioning that Bernie Nicholls had 150 points that very same year be downplaying it?

Yzerman 80 65+90=155 +17
Nicholls 79 70+80=150 +30

Both deserve credit for their peak season finishing 3rd and 4th respectively behind two great players. Rob Brown as the 5th only had 115 points in 68 games.

 

[TeamRenzo]

Both were awesome in their prime but I went with Stevie Y

 

[bobholly39]

Its actuallly pathetic that Forsberg got any votes, forget that Yzerman is only winning 15-10 right now when talking about his 19988/89 season.

Yzermans 155 point season was against prime Gretzky and peak Lemieux. Yzerman had more even strength points than Gretzky and 1 less even strength point than Lemeiux that year. Yzermans power play did not have close to the help that Lemeiux did with a dman like Coffey, which made up the difference in points between the 2 of them. Yzerman was working with Chiasson on the point and the second highest scoring dman on his team was Rick Zombo with a close to career high 21 points that year. Yzerman led the league in even strength goals by 4 that year. On a worse team, Yzerman was on the ice for a lot less goals against than Mario as well

Despite the clear team advantage, Lemeiux only had one more even strength point. Yzerman won the Pearson voted by his peers over the best season Lemieux ever had and a prime Gretzky. Forsberg honestly can't come close to what Yzerman did that year.

Being that close to Gretzky and Lemeiux at their best, including winning a Pearson, is significantly more impressive than a 29 goal season with a hart trophy but losing the Pearson to a guy like Markus Naslund (who was great, but not close to who Yzerman was competing with)

Yeah I voted for Yzerman too - but your comparisons to Lemieux in 1989 are way too exagerated. ES this, ES that...power play production counts too. Lemieux was significantly better than Yzerman that year.

Also - the Pearson is kind of a joke in the 80s. In 1986 - Lemieux won it over Gretzky, even though Gretzky outscored him by close to 70 points. I wouldn't use Yzerman's pearson win to draw any conclusions that he was somehow better, or even close to Lemieux that year.

Vs peak Forsberg though - I agree. Better season

 

[Mickey Marner]

Bernie Nicholls scoring 150 really in '89 isn't really any more egregious than Glen Murray scoring 92 in '03. Neither has any bearing on how good Yzerman or Forsberg were anyhow.

 

[Video Nasty]

The 80s had a few Pearson head-scratchers. I think a lot of players were voting relative to expectations. I don't think anyone thought he was particularly close to Lemieux

Definitely this.

Hence why Gretzky didn’t receive the Pearson in 1985-1986 after his new records of 163 assists and 215 points and beating Mario in the scoring race by 74 points.

You have to figure that players had grown bored of voting for Gretzky at that point (4 consecutive Pearsons) and I suspect they were intrigued by a new talent performing at such a level.

Probably a similar mindset in 1988-1989.

 

[Regal]

I think Yzerman's peak season was more impressive than any of Forsberg's overall, but at the same time, while he didn't have a lot of help, he also played a ton of minutes. Forsberg's efficiency in '03 was extremely impressive both in terms of production and dominating GF%. It would be interesting to see what Forsberg would have done that year with minutes more in line with say, Naslund, who, as a Canucks fan, was clearly not on the same level. If we're voting for best seasons, I'd give Yzerman the edge, but if we're just looking at who was the best at their best, I think it's close, but I'd lean Forsberg. I think offensively it was close, but Forsberg was the more rounded player while at his offensive peak.

 

[newfy]

Yeah I voted for Yzerman too - but your comparisons to Lemieux in 1989 are way too exagerated. ES this, ES that...power play production counts too. Lemieux was significantly better than Yzerman that year.

Also - the Pearson is kind of a joke in the 80s. In 1986 - Lemieux won it over Gretzky, even though Gretzky outscored him by close to 70 points. I wouldn't use Yzerman's pearson win to draw any conclusions that he was somehow better, or even close to Lemieux that year.

Vs peak Forsberg though - I agree. Better season

That post wasnt me trying to say Yzerman was better than Lemieux if it came out that way. It was just that Yzerman was slugging it out with 2 of the top 4 all time and doing a really good job at it while Forsberg was doing it in a relatively weak era for forwards. Splitting awards (no matter how much you say its a joke) with Lemieux and Gretzky is significantly different than splitting them with Naslund.

Yzerman in my estimation was more impressive than Gretzky and Lemeiux at even strength that year when you take teams into account. You cant just not count PP though so youre right Lemeiux was significantly better. But even having an edge at even strength like on guys like Gretzky and Lemieux show how good Yzerman was that year. Forsberg cant touch that season, he didnt even break 30 goals at his peak

 

[Dingo]

And Bernie Nicholls scored 150 that year.

exactly.
anyone saying 155 is 155 had better be able to pick Maruk and Nilsson over anyone this century.

Yzerman’s season was incredible, though.

 

[bobholly39]

That post wasnt me trying to say Yzerman was better than Lemieux if it came out that way. It was just that Yzerman was slugging it out with 2 of the top 4 all time and doing a really good job at it while Forsberg was doing it in a relatively weak era for forwards. Splitting awards (no matter how much you say its a joke) with Lemieux and Gretzky is significantly different than splitting them with Naslund.

Yzerman in my estimation was more impressive than Gretzky and Lemeiux at even strength that year when you take teams into account. You cant just not count PP though so youre right Lemeiux was significantly better. But even having an edge at even strength like on guys like Gretzky and Lemieux show how good Yzerman was that year. Forsberg cant touch that season, he didnt even break 30 goals at his peak

That's fair.

The one thing you also need to keep in mind about Forsberg and splitting the award (Pearson) with Naslund that you mentioned earlier. I'm pretty sure it's been proven/said that players tended to vote on award earlier in the season, or at least did back then. So most players voting on the Pearson may do so around ~February, way before end of season. Most times that doesn't make much of a difference, but it did that season.

On feb 1st - Lemieux had 68 points, Naslund 65 and Forsberg in 10th place at 55. By season end, Forsberg had stormed back to win the scoring race by 2 points in 7 less games, and he was also a staggering +52 (tied for #1 in league) to Naslund's +6. So - if players had voted on the Pearson at the end of the year after seeing both seasons play out fully - I'm pretty certain Forsberg would have won that award too.

But overall - I agree. Yzerman's 1989 season is better than anything Forsberg put forth.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Their careers overlap but their peaks came in such opposite eras. Yzerman in the DPE was still one of the better centres in the NHL.

 

[authentic]

Considering the two-way play of Forsberg, and adjusting for eras the answer is clearly Forsberg. Yzerman was purely a one way player still at that point. Forsberg in 2002-03 was better.

 

[Foppberg]

Forsberg.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Forgot that outliner season, but I seemed to remember Fedorov was better than Yzerman in playoffs.

 

[newfy]

Considering the two-way play of Forsberg, and adjusting for eras the answer is clearly Forsberg. Yzerman was purely a one way player still at that point. Forsberg in 2002-03 was better.

Youre out to lunch. Forsberg and his almost 30 goals doesnt touch Yzermans peak season, adjusting for anything you want to adjust for. The closest non-Gretzky/Lemieux linemate was 45 points behind Yzerman at his best lol

 

[authentic]

Youre out to lunch. Forsberg and his almost 30 goals doesnt touch Yzermans peak season, adjusting for anything you want to adjust for. The closest non-Gretzky/Lemieux linemate was 45 points behind Yzerman at his best lol

The league averaged literally over 2 goals per game more in 1988-89, and the rest of the league was almost entirely Canadian. It's far from a fact that Yzerman was the better player at his peak especially since Forsberg actually continued that pace for another full seasons worth of games in 2003-04 and the first half of 2005-06 before injuries, and actually dominated in the playoffs more than Yzerman ever did. I take Forsberg without hesitation, and I would bet he wins a head to head matchup with "peak" Yzerman. The poll is relatively close for good reason, so I'll take my lunch and eat it.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Peak Yzerman, from 1986-87 scored 90 points and then fired off 6 straight 100+ point seasons and would have made it 7 if not for an injury in 1993-94. 5 of those 100+ point seasons he also scored 50+ goals. It's not like that 155 point season was a 1-hit wonder for him. He was dominant for a long stretch.

That's pretty good, my dudes.