Paul Coffey: Overrated or Underrated?

[JackSlater]

Pretty properly rated I think. Most people think of him as the second best defenceman ever in terms of offence but are aware of his defensive performance and how it could vary.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Usually the winning goalies have a good sv%. I mean its a given that you need a good goalie to win is it not?

Right, but I think it’s more that winning follows good goaltending rather than good goaltending follows winning. Which is why I don’t think the 1997 and 1998 Detroit Red Wings (without Coffey) were necessarily better than the 1995 and 1996 Detroit Red Wings (with Coffey). Hotter goaltending at the right time though, even though we’re looking at the same goaltenders.

I think had Chris Osgood been the starting goaltender in the 1995 playoffs, it would have made things a lot easier on Detroit. His save percentage was .917 to Vernon’s .893 that season, but the Red Wings were so damn good that they could still have a 19-6 record with a goaltender like Vernon who was ranked 29th (out of the 38 goaltenders to play 1/3rd of the season) in save percentage.

Just seems like Bowman played a hunch twice in three years taking the worse of two goaltenders into the playoffs, and because it worked once, the players from the 1995 team that weren’t on the 1997 team took the blame.

 

[Thenameless]

This is only a feeling, but he seems to be getting more underrated as time goes on. I prefer defensemen who can play well in their own end, especially those with a bit of a physical element to their game, but I still think that I'm higher than most on Coffey. He's so darn good at what he can do that, for me anyways, it easily overshadows his weakness in his own end. It's easy enough to pair him with a Willie Mitchell type of defenseman and still have an extremely elite all-time first pairing.

 

[Hobnobs]

Right, but I think it’s more that winning follows good goaltending rather than good goaltending follows winning. Which is why I don’t think the 1997 and 1998 Detroit Red Wings (without Coffey) were necessarily better than the 1995 and 1996 Detroit Red Wings (with Coffey). Hotter goaltending at the right time though, even though we’re looking at the same goaltenders.

I think had Chris Osgood been the starting goaltender in the 1995 playoffs, it would have made things a lot easier on Detroit. His save percentage was .917 to Vernon’s .893 that season, but the Red Wings were so damn good that they could still have a 19-6 record with a goaltender like Vernon who was ranked 29th (out of the 38 goaltenders to play 1/3rd of the season) in save percentage.

Just seems like Bowman played a hunch twice in three years taking the worse of two goaltenders into the playoffs, and because it worked once, the players from the 1995 team that weren’t on the 1997 team took the blame.

I both agree and disagree. Goalies sv% is affected by quality of shots. As far as I know avs quality of shots went up when Coffey was on the ice (and Ramsay but we are focusing on Coffey in this thread). Now was Coffey bad? No, ofcourse not but he was obviously at the end of his career and couldnt be a top pairing defenseman with defensive responsibilities anymore. Does he deserve the extent of the blame he gets by not being on the cup winning teams and being on the losing side? No. Does he deserve blame? Yes.

 

[quoipourquoi]

This is only a feeling, but he seems to be getting more underrated as time goes on. I prefer defensemen who can play well in their own end, especially those with a bit of a physical element to their game, but I still think that I'm higher than most on Coffey. He's so darn good at what he can do that, for me anyways, it easily overshadows his weakness in his own end. It's easy enough to pair him with a Willie Mitchell type of defenseman and still have an extremely elite all-time first pairing.

I think it doesn’t help that in addition to detractors who did see him, it becomes easier for many newer fans to write off his most notable strength as a Gretzky/Lemieux by-product.

When the 1990-91 Pittsburgh Penguins started the first 50 games of the season without Mario Lemieux, Paul Coffey was ranked 6th in league scoring with 64 points in those 50 games, but if a newer fan is only doing surface-level analysis, they might not be aware of things like that.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I both agree and disagree. Goalies sv% is affected by quality of shots. As far as I know avs quality of shots went up when Coffey was on the ice (and Ramsay but we are focusing on Coffey in this thread). Now was Coffey bad? No, ofcourse not but he was obviously at the end of his career and couldnt be a top pairing defenseman with defensive responsibilities anymore. Does he deserve the extent of the blame he gets by not being on the cup winning teams and being on the losing side? No. Does he deserve blame? Yes.

I mean, the Red Wings’ goaltenders let in 7 goals on 35 shots (.800) in the two games he missed in the 1996 Western Conference Finals too, so it seems like there were high-percentage chances all-around.

 

[Hobnobs]

I mean, the Red Wings’ goaltenders let in 7 goals on 35 shots (.800) in the two games he missed in the 1996 Western Conference Finals too, so it seems like there were high-percentage chances all-around.

Yup the team couldn't handle the avs run and gun that well and Osgood was completely bombarded with shots. They went from 20.7 Shots/game in the previous two rounds to 28.2 per game against the Avs. There was a reason why half the defense was let go one way or another. Rouse (and Ward coming up) being better than Bergevin and Ramsey for one. Coffey wouldnt make sense to still have around because he would no longer be slotted in the top-4 at ES but would still demand getting paid like he was. I also think the way he fizzled out with the flyers the next year proved Bowman and Co right but also warps the perception of his whole career into a more negative view of it than it really were.

 

[FerrisRox]

I think he's underrated. I also think a lot of people around here have very strong opinions of him but never saw him play a game under the age of 30, if at all.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This is only a feeling, but he seems to be getting more underrated as time goes on. I prefer defensemen who can play well in their own end, especially those with a bit of a physical element to their game, but I still think that I'm higher than most on Coffey. He's so darn good at what he can do that, for me anyways, it easily overshadows his weakness in his own end. It's easy enough to pair him with a Willie Mitchell type of defenseman and still have an extremely elite all-time first pairing.

In the 2009 rankings here, Coffey was 46th.

In 2018 he was 48th.

Considering how many new players joined the rankings, that's really like an improvement for him.

 

[Staniowski]

When I was in university, we were assigned to do a compare/contrast essay in first year English....I did Bourque vs Coffey....my conclusion was Bourque was better.

But I really like Coffey, moreso now. Coffey was capable of doing things that Bourque wasn't capable of, like really elite things. You can see it in best-on-best tournaments, where Coffey could outshine Bourque.

 

[VanIslander]

Anyone who would pick Coffey over Pronger to win a game doesn't value defense, but at least he or she isn't insane.

(Bourque is top-10 all-time player territory. Only a Potvin or Lidstrom is in his stratosphere in the modern era. Let's not ridicule Coffey by trying to compare him to Bourque.)

 

[Staniowski]

Anyone who would pick Coffey over Pronger to win a game doesn't value defense, but at least he or she isn't insane.

(Bourque is top-10 all-time player territory. Only a Potvin or Lidstrom is in his stratosphere in the modern era. Let's not ridicule Coffey by trying to compare him to Bourque.)

Coffey was obviously superior to Bourque in some aspects of the game, and Coffey was more valuable in some situations, at some times.

 

[VanIslander]

Bourque was better at positioning against 2 on 1's (please don't cite the rare Coffey highlight to the contrary, against the Soviets - we all have seen it, I was surprised when i saw it live), is better at pokechecks, bodychecks and puck recovery, better at quick transition passing, better at shooting, in frequency, strength and accuracy.

Coffey was a faster skater and a creative playmaker. He skated faster than his brain could catch up some times. He wasn't important in the 1985 and 1987 Stanley Cups so Sather didn't worry when he shipped Coffey out of Edmonton.

I say this as a huge Coffey fan back THEN. I saw his exceptional offense as a youth and drank the Kool-aid that followed for too long.

 

[Staniowski]

Bourque was better at positioning against 2 on 1's (please don't cite the rare Coffey highlight to the contrary, against the Soviets - we all have seen it, I was surprised when i saw it live), is better at pokechecks, bodychecks and puck recovery, better at quick transition passing, better at shooting, in frequency, strength and accuracy.

Coffey was a faster skater and a creative playmaker. He skated faster than his brain could catch up some times. He wasn't important in the 1985 and 1987 Stanley Cups so Sather didn't worry when he shipped Coffey out of Edmonton.

I say this as a huge Coffey fan back THEN. I saw his exceptional offense as a youth and drank the Kool-aid that followed for too long.

The 2 on 1 in '84 was a bad play by the Soviets....Coffey was very lucky it wasn't Makarov and Krutov.

 

[Minar]

I liked how at some point in every game Coffey would get the itch and try to go end to end.

 

[The Panther]

He wasn't important in the 1985 and 1987 Stanley Cups so Sather didn't worry when he shipped Coffey out of Edmonton.

Wait, what?? Coffey was in the running for the Conn Smythe down to the last game of the 1985 playoffs.

It reads like you are angry at yourself for liking a player more than you should have. This doesn't mean you now should do a 180 and massively under-rate the player.

 

[VanIslander]

Wait, what?? Coffey was in the running for the Conn Smythe down to the last game of the 1985 playoffs.

I mixed up 1985 and 1987. My bad.

33 and 35 years ago...

Gawd, all went to pot when i turned 50. *sigh*

 

[SotasicA]

Very overrated. People today look at points only when it comes to yesterdays players.

Especially for a d-man bloated point totals are not important. He was a good #1 d-man, but never the best or anything. Quick first pass, fast skater, good instincts both ways, but not a physical threat and not as well rounded as the true top guys had to be.

 

[The Panther]

As with most of these kinds of questions, there is no "over-rated" or "under-rated". Coffey did not exist in a vacuum, and no players do.

On certain kinds of teams/situations (like Edmonton 1980s), in his prime (c.1983 to 1996), Coffey could be and sometimes was THE BEST DEFENCEMAN IN THE NHL. There were times he was better than Ray Bourque or Mark Howe or Scott Stevens or Chris Chelios.

On other kinds of teams/situations (Pittsburgh late-80s), Coffey was much less effective, and was generally not one of the five or even ten best defencemen in the League.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The 2 on 1 in '84 was a bad play by the Soviets....Coffey was very lucky it wasn't Makarov and Krutov.

If Coffey was on the ice when Makarov and Krutov were, it was not by design.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think he's underrated. I also think a lot of people around here have very strong opinions of him but never saw him play a game under the age of 30, if at all.

I would think the posters with very strong opinions about Coffey would be the ones that did see him play.

 

[quoipourquoi]

In the 2009 rankings here, Coffey was 46th.

In 2018 he was 48th.

Considering how many new players joined the rankings, that's really like an improvement for him.

Worth noting that on the aggregate list, he was 43rd. He even had the 2nd most 1st place votes in the #41-44 round but polarizing players tend to take a little hit in the final rankings because of the point system.

Still, not really consistent with the media perception of him, which in THN’s 2007 list was just under Lafleur and Potvin and Clarke (our 18, 23, and 29), and just over Hasek and Robinson and Trottier (our 13, 31, and 37).

 

[Michael Varnakov]

Over the years I've found Paul Coffey to be a polarizing figure among die-hard fans. Perception-wise, would you say Coffey is overrated or underrated within all-time hockey circles and why?

Paul Douglas Coffey

Paul Coffey certainly was not over rated. My memory of him from the 1980's centers around one play he made late agianst the Soviets in the 1984 Canada cup. He intercepted that pass on that two on one! He was definitely ready for prime time! That play led directly to the series winning goal that was originally credited to him. But, it was Bossy that deflected it in. But he didn't get credit for it until about ten minutes later!

 

[Michael Varnakov]

Over the years I've found Paul Coffey to be a polarizing figure among die-hard fans. Perception-wise, would you say Coffey is overrated or underrated within all-time hockey circles and why?

Paul Douglas Coffey

My memories about Paul Coffey in the 1980's centers around one play in particular he made in the 1984 Canada Cup. He was not over rated! He intercepted that pass late agianst the Soviets on that two on one break. He was definitely ready for prime time! This play led directly to the series winning goal that was credited to him. At first! Bossy actually deflected the puck in, but it took like ten minutes before he was officially credited for the goal.

 

[Laphroaig]

I see Coffey as being underrated. he's easily the second best offensive defenseman ever and I've always felt that his defensive shortcomings have been vastly overstated. To me great defense is getting the puck out of your end. Coffey did this as well as anyone.