Paul Coffey: Overrated or Underrated?
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Cursed Lemon
Registered Bruiser
Like it or not, he was a key component on multiple teams and helped maximize the potential of some very high profile teammates. True, in the second half of his career he sucked defensively, but those points...
tony d
Registered User
I think he's rated just fine, he's considered among the top 8-12 defenseman of all time which is the perfect spot for him.
Fredrik_71
Registered User
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
It's funny to go back and read the same debates about Coffey that have arisen more recently with the recent crop offensive-minded d-men.
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
- Sep 20, 2011
- 3,174
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Rated fairly I suppose. 2nd best offensive d-man ever, and by quite a margin as well, so to leave him out of the top 10 overall would be underrating him IMO.
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 14,782
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It is interesting to me because I think the defenseman project got him about right, but I think the general perception of him on the boards underrates him.
He was a fully incredible player in his prime years. Like in the discussion for best player in the world (outside of Gretzky of course) good.
Terry Yake
Registered User
- Aug 5, 2013
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LeBlondeDemon10
Registered User
He is a curious case. I liken him to Phil Esposito, not in style but in the ambiguity that seems to surround him; both playing with the two top offensive forces in history (and Coffey also with the 3rd best offensive force in history), each having their own distinct set of skills that are not consistently appreciated. Also, both lacking a complete game and often criticized for their limitations. However, during my tenure on this site, I have come to appreciate Esposito a lot more, mostly because of his international play. Coffey's international resume doesn't stand out as much as Espo's, but he was a key factor in Canada winning the CC in 84. Coffey may be easier to appreciate than Espo because he was so fluid and beautiful to watch. Had Coffey not played with the dynamic three, he may be viewed in the same light as Perreault; beautiful to watch, but lacking overwhelming statistics. An enigma wrapped in a riddle, difficult for me to rate, but not hard for me to appreciate.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Seriously underrated. If he was a forward, he'd have a much better reputation. Defense obviously wasn't his greatest strength, but he was so brilliant offensively that what he created was enough for a larger net gain - which should be the most important thing. But when people look at defensemen, they tend to look at defense. It makes sense, literally, but offense from a defenseman is worth as much as offense from a forward.
1378 points in 1080 games from 1982-1996, and he succeeded on three different teams (Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Detroit). That's a long period of relevance. He's a top-30 player at any position in my book. He offers something that only Bobby Orr can give you. That's about as big of an endorsement as you can get.
His speed still offered him something that many teams lacked from their defensemen. Scotty Bowman said in 1996 that he wanted Coffey on Sakic because Coffey was the only player who could keep up with him.
1378 points in 1080 games from 1982-1996, and he succeeded on three different teams (Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Detroit). That's a long period of relevance. He's a top-30 player at any position in my book. He offers something that only Bobby Orr can give you. That's about as big of an endorsement as you can get.
His speed still offered him something that many teams lacked from their defensemen. Scotty Bowman said in 1996 that he wanted Coffey on Sakic because Coffey was the only player who could keep up with him.
- Jan 22, 2007
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The HFBoards list has him 13th overall. Personally, I think that's a bit too low.
This is how I feel. But it's funny... some people I talk to say he's lucky to be in the top 15-20 all-around Defensemen and others say he could crack the top 5.
Dark Shadows
Registered User
??
He was at his best defensively between the ages of 31-34.
His defensive lapses were forgivable on the Oilers because he tended to slant the ice into the offensive zone and it worked(he had a lot of help in that regard with 2 superstar scoring lines). His defensive lapses on the Pens were far more noticeable because the ice was slanted into the offensive zone only when certain other players were on the ice.
His play in Detroit was by far better defensively than previously shown, although still not any better than average.
After Detroit, his game went downhill in a hurry, and he was awful on both ends of the ice.
Coffey Belongs just outside the top 10 all time defensemen, but no lower than 12th
Martin Riggs
You wanna see crazy?
I think his game went downhill after Detroit because he was moved around so much. That and Philly was really the only decent team he played for after '96. Age/diminishing skill set aside of course.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I think he just lost his speed with age, and so much of his game at both ends of the rink relied on speed.
I think Forsberg was probably better at changing direction with the puck, but I think Sakic had better straight ahead speed.
DisgruntledGoat*
Registered User
- Dec 26, 2010
- 4,301
- 27
My vote is for underrated and, specifically, underrated defensively.
I've heard him mentioned as the worst defensive player ever which is silly.
No, no one was ever going to confuse him with Langway but his ability to move a puck from his own end in the blink of an eye (either by skating it or passing it) is tremendously undervalued. And his skating and skill allowed him to break up a lot of offensive rushes that he doesn't always get credit for. Check out 2:30 and 2:55 in the clip below:
At 2:30, he's the last man back grabbing a puck and transitioning it into a scoring chance in the blink of an eye. At 2:55, he strips an opposing player and is, again, headed back up ice faster than anyone not named Orr could have done. There's value in that that sometimes gets forgotten.
I agree with the poster who said he'd get more respect if he were a forward. If a forward had his same stats and accomplishments. . . would that forward be ranked below Yzerman?
I've heard him mentioned as the worst defensive player ever which is silly.
No, no one was ever going to confuse him with Langway but his ability to move a puck from his own end in the blink of an eye (either by skating it or passing it) is tremendously undervalued. And his skating and skill allowed him to break up a lot of offensive rushes that he doesn't always get credit for. Check out 2:30 and 2:55 in the clip below:
At 2:30, he's the last man back grabbing a puck and transitioning it into a scoring chance in the blink of an eye. At 2:55, he strips an opposing player and is, again, headed back up ice faster than anyone not named Orr could have done. There's value in that that sometimes gets forgotten.
I agree with the poster who said he'd get more respect if he were a forward. If a forward had his same stats and accomplishments. . . would that forward be ranked below Yzerman?
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
The Panther
Registered User
I guess he's rated about right. In terms of skating and skill-set, he was unbelievably great -- probably in the top 6 or 7 players of all time! He was undoubtedly the most fluid, and probably overall greatest, skater I've ever seen.
But in terms of defensive ability and effectiveness, he was probably average, and, at times, below average. He was quite adequate at breaking up plays, skating back (quickly) to catch opposing players, and intercepting pucks. All good. But he didn't use his body physically very well, and in particular he had a horrible habit of lazily draping himself around one opposing forward in the defensive zone and simply skating around with that forward, oblivious to whatever else was going on in front of the net.
Glen Sather was baffled by him, and ultimately frustrated. Sather said Coffey was "an incredible talent" and the "greatest skater (he'd) ever seen". But he also said Coffey could be brilliant and awful all in the same shift on the ice.
But in terms of defensive ability and effectiveness, he was probably average, and, at times, below average. He was quite adequate at breaking up plays, skating back (quickly) to catch opposing players, and intercepting pucks. All good. But he didn't use his body physically very well, and in particular he had a horrible habit of lazily draping himself around one opposing forward in the defensive zone and simply skating around with that forward, oblivious to whatever else was going on in front of the net.
Glen Sather was baffled by him, and ultimately frustrated. Sather said Coffey was "an incredible talent" and the "greatest skater (he'd) ever seen". But he also said Coffey could be brilliant and awful all in the same shift on the ice.
VMBM
And it didn't even bring me down
Yep, he said that. Heh, just a couple of days ago I watched the Boys on the Bus.
I agree with a lot of this. I feel like he gets rated behind a lot of Dmen who didn't impact their teams as much as Coffey impacted his. Orr gets so much credit for his offense (as he should, of course), but when Coffey finishes 2nd in league scoring behind only Gretzky, some people try to ignore it or wash it away because he D wasn't as good as Orr's. Well, no one is saying it was - but he was the 2nd best offensive Dman ever, and he was still about average defensively. That is pretty special.
aemoreira1981
Registered User
At worst, Paul Coffey is properly rated if you ask me. His defense may not have been as good as that of Ray Bourque (whom I see as really the person against whom Coffey is measured), but he was a playmaker from the blue line on those powerhouse Oilers teams.
Dark Shadows
Registered User
Bowman's comments when trading him were not so great either. But granted, Coffey was one of the guys who would not play ball and play defense first. Yzerman hated it at first, but went along with Bowman and did it.
Dark Shadows
Registered User
Coffey gets due credit for his impact to the teams he played on, but sometimes too much. People try to make it out like Gretzky and Lemieux would NEVER have had those seasons if not for Coffey on the blueline and it is just an exaggeration.
They credit Lemieux's offensive explosion after Coffey arrived in 87-88, but a glance at the numbers tell you Lemieux before Coffey arrived had 18 goals and 19 assists in the first 18 games he played before Coffey arrived(On pace for 77 goals and 158 points(10 shy of what he actually hit). it was playing with Gretzky at the Canada cup that really impacted Mario's game face.
Gretzky himself the year Coffey missed 15 games with back spasms scored 15 goals and 19 assists for 34 points in 12 games. Obviously, Gretzky could score with anyone.
Those sorts of players tilt the ice into the offensive zone moreso than Coffey did. On the oilers, there were 2 superstar lines tilting the ice, and you can tell in Coffey's +/-. On the pens squad it was really only Lemieux tilting the ice with Coffey's help, and Coffey's +/- suffered due to the poor two way play.
Yes his speed let him get back to break up a play occasionally. Everyone tries to show that one clip of him in 84 like it was commonplace when it was a rarity. There were just as many times when he just stood there and watched a guy as his team was scored on. He played the puck instead of the man often enough that it caused a boatload of errors.
He was not "invaluable" to most of his cup wins and the teams usually went on to win cups without him. He had two phenomenal Cup runs in Edmonton and one in which he contributed less than expected. The cup win on the Pens would have been won without him and they did go on to win another fully without him.
In Detroit, Bowman ran him out of town and they went on to win the cup twice without him.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
On that play, he waits with the puck, makes it look like he's going to make a safe curl back towards his own end to reset, gets all three opposing forwards to circle in that direction, but quickly and smoothly escapes up ice and creates the 3-on-2/scramble situation that leaves Bourque a wide open dump-off to a wide open Gretzky who makes no mistake. It's the instincts matched to those skills which made Coffey special, and why I think guys like Bowman miss the mark with their criticism of his lack of oppressive defensive presence. It's like criticizing Wayne Gretzky for not being Bob Gainey AND Gordie Howe on top of being, well, himself.
He's no Bourque or Lidstrom when it comes to defensive awareness or making the puck do work for them, but neither guy was even nearly as capable of moving the puck with their feet, either. In that regard, he's one of the few that deserve mention alongside someone like Orr.
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
- Sep 20, 2011
- 3,174
- 31
Yeah 13th is a bit too low, I would have him somewhere between 5-10. Probably closer to 5 to be honest.
Better agility, yes, Sakic was clearly the faster player though I thought.
