Player Discussion: Patrik Laine

[heilongjetsfan]

There is a saying...
You can always have a great offensive top line and it can get you nowhere.
But get a solid top 6 defense and a vezina caliber goalie you can reach the finals and might win the cup.

That's not a saying. That's your opinion, and it might be right, but it's not a saying.

 

[Halberdier]

Also while Laine obviously picked up his game during that time, saying Stastny didn't do anything is revisionism. He found Laine with passes in places where Little didn't, worked well off the rush with both, set up nice screens and blocked guys allowing laine to get into better shooting lanes. Overall he just seemed hungrier, he came into a situation he liked, looking to make most of it on a contract year.

True that. Also people have to remember that Laine all in the sudden "started moving his feet" the very second he got rid of ELL, so even before Stastny.

When a line doesn't work, it doesn't help you to just skate faster to wrong direction. When a line is working, you know where to skate and so you can also look faster.

 

[Ducky10]

Obviously that was just an example of how xGoals work, and why it's so unreliable for Laine, unless it's adjusted by shooting talent.

It's not as unreliable for Laine as you seem to think. It just doesn't fit your viewpoint is all.

 

[Halberdier]

It's not as unreliable for Laine as you seem to think. It just doesn't fit your viewpoint is all.

I wrote that xGoals (most models*) doesn't include shooting quality & SH%, and then you claimed that it did include them specifically, which was just patently false.

Now you didn't only change your opinion about whether it's including shooting quality & SH%, but you also claim it doesn't need to.

There is a point on not including shooting quality / shooting talent & SH% (described in that link I gave), but that is also exactly the reason why (that kind of) xGoals is almost completely broken as a prediction of number of goals for shooting talents like Laine. That's not "my viewpoint", "my my opinion" but just a cold hard fact.

*) Actually I don't know whether it's "most" or only "some", but at least Corsica.hockey model doesn't, and that's my goto site for advanced stats.

 

[Ducky10]

What is wrong with you? I wrote that xGoals (most models*) doesn't include shooting quality & SH%, and then you claimed that it did include them specifically, which was just patently false.

Now you didn't only change your opinion about whether it's including shooting quality & SH%, but you also claim it doesn't need to.

There is a point on not including shooting quality / shooting talent & SH% (described in that link I gave), but that is also exactly the reason why (that kind of) xGoals is almost completely broken as a prediction of number of goals for shooting talents like Laine. That's not "my viewpoint", "my my opinion" but just a cold hard fact.

*) Actually I don't know whether it's "most" or only "some", but at least Corsica.hockey model doesn't, and that's my goto site for advanced stats.

Huh? What's wrong with me? It does incorporate shot quality, it's basically the whole f***ing principle. It doesn't incorporate the quality of the shooter, if that's what your trying to say.

You can say it's broken all you like, that would be your opinion. I never claimed it to be the be all, end all stat, it's a useful one though and accepted by many. You just continue to make shit up, reading a number of responses from you in here about it, I honestly don't think you really fully understand it.

Your lack of objectivity makes it near impossible to have a discussion.

 

[Board Bard]

True that. Also people have to remember that Laine all in the sudden "started moving his feet" the very second he got rid of ELL, so even before Stastny.

When a line doesn't work, it doesn't help you to just skate faster to wrong direction. When a line is working, you know where to skate and so you can also look faster.

Laine all of a sudden started moving his feet when Maurice told him to. He even admitted it. It's not complicated and it doesn't involve linemates.

 

[Halberdier]

Laine all of a sudden started moving his feet when Maurice told him to. He even admitted it. It's not complicated and it doesn't involve linemates.

So Maurice did break up ELL and then told Laine that hey, you need to skate. And all in the sudden he found out that man, to play hockey you need to skate, and started skating, which he didn't do while playing ELL.

It puzzles me that there are really people believing this kind of fairy tales.

 

[Tommigun]

Not literally no but if people see that as a bad line and still don't want to look at other options...



Whether Stastny did anything or not, that line was very effective for a good period of time and I doubt Ehlers or Laine suddenly fixed the weaknesses people say are systemic to their game which suggests there's another way for them to play the game that makes them more effective than they are right now. If it was just Laine putting his work boots on, great but I've yet to see that kind of a period with Little so i'm skeptical.

Yeah. Laine has looked good at every level he's played at including with the Jets, but now people are coming up with a weird theory about holes in his game. There's a billion holes in his game for sure but this really is about a lineup mismatch and would be easy to solve, just try Laine with Roslovic or something, it's the preseason and time to test things.

It's the same with Little, he didn't suddenly become horrible at hockey. They just don't play well together. It's as simple as that.

 

[Tommigun]

What does Laine need to develop? Is there a discussion to be had about that?

Just curious.

There was like a thousand post discussion about that in the Laine's off-season training thread.

 

[Calendal]

Huh? What's wrong with me? It does incorporate shot quality, it's basically the whole ****ing principle. It doesn't incorporate the quality of the shooter, if that's what your trying to say.

You can say it's broken all you like that would be your opinion. I never claimed it to be the be all, end all stat, it's a useful one though and accepted by many. You just continue to make **** up, reading a number of responses from you in here about it, I honestly don't think you really fully understand it.

Your lack of objectivity makes it near impossible to have a discussion.

I think we are beyond the point where people should be discussing "xGoals". We need to be more specific (such as "corsica xGoals") to even have a hope of having same vocabulary.

Corsica xGoals seems to include many relevant things but still omits puck movement immediately before the shot (other than rebound vs non-rebound). I have a hunch if you were to look at 27-55-29 goals, you would see them making significant puck movement just before many shots.

 

[Asiantuntija]

Everyone always keeps pointing out that our team wins more when Laine is on same line with Little. Somehow Laine has way better +/- without Little. Does this mean that Little needs Laine or otherwise he gets burned on defense?

 

[Asiantuntija]

I've been wondering for very long how Laine - Little is able to pass Maurice eye-test on practice.

 

[6zag]

I've been wondering for very long how Laine - Little is able to pass Maurice eye-test on practice.

I don't think you are alone sir.

 

[Board Bard]

So Maurice did break up ELL and then told Laine that hey, you need to skate. And all in the sudden he found out that man, to play hockey you need to skate, and started skating, which he didn't do while playing ELL.

It puzzles me that there are really people believing this kind of fairy tales.

If you won't believe Laine himself on the subject, you aren't likely to believe fairy tales (or truth, evidently). Come to think of it, if you believe the moving-to-another-line bunkum, you are likely to believe fairy tales. All of a sudden he started skating and moving because all of a sudden Maurice told him to -- although in the latter case it probably wasn't all of a sudden but rather a growing frustration with Laine's lack of movement and pursuit. You are obviously easily puzzled. Is this something that happend to you all of a sudden or, like Laine's skating and moving (or, rather, paucity thereof), has it been something habitual?

 

[Ducky10]

There was like a thousand post discussion about that in the Laine's off-season training thread.

Uh... Yeah.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

If you won't believe Laine himself on the subject, you aren't likely to believe fairy tales (or truth, evidently). Come to think of it, if you believe the moving-to-another-line bunkum, you are likely to believe fairy tales. All of a sudden he started skating and moving because all of a sudden Maurice told him to -- although in the latter case it probably wasn't all of a sudden but rather a growing frustration with Laine's lack of movement and pursuit. You are obviously easily puzzled. Is this something that happend to you all of a sudden or, like Laine's skating and moving (or, rather, paucity thereof), has it been something habitual?

So, what, from now on whenever Patrik is doing the suk suk, all that Maurice has to do is "move your feet" and he'll start scoring? It sounds so god damn stupid.

 

[Halberdier]

If you won't believe Laine himself on the subject, you aren't likely to believe fairy tales (or truth, evidently). Come to think of it, if you believe the moving-to-another-line bunkum, you are likely to believe fairy tales. All of a sudden he started skating and moving because all of a sudden Maurice told him to -- although in the latter case it probably wasn't all of a sudden but rather a growing frustration with Laine's lack of movement and pursuit. You are obviously easily puzzled. Is this something that happend to you all of a sudden or, like Laine's skating and moving (or, rather, paucity thereof), has it been something habitual?

"Laine is not skating" and "Laine just started skating" are just media narratives. There is just one narrative that fits media at a time, and for sure I remember how that Laine skate-gate was the thing. Media narratives might hold some truth or not, but just that they are parrotted by media doesn't make them truth.

Obviously he cannot blame Maurice about forcing a dysfunctional line. When media asks him about that "Maurice told us that he told you to start skating, is this true?" what else he could say other than "yes, he did"?

How did Laine all in the sudden "stop skating" after demoted back to ELL from top line, and only a week later again "started skating" when Little was replaced with Copp? Is it so that Wheeler and Copp and Stastny remember to tell him before every faceoff that "Patty, remember to skate!", but Little told him "Patty, you don't need to skate much"?

I'm puzzled because I can't understand that narrative of Laine intentionally not skating enough and just started skating when the coach told (coinciding with different linemates) and then stopped skating and re-started skating again after line change?

Maurice himself explained success of Laine and Ehlers with Copp that boys are just excited for the change. So he denied that ELL line was dysfunctional before and just got working by replacing one of that trio of cancer. I can't remember if he tried to push that skating narrative again at that point, but I guess it was just the "excitement".

 

[Board Bard]

So, what, from now on whenever Patrik is doing the suk suk, all that Maurice has to do is "move your feet" and he'll start scoring? It sounds so god damn stupid.

You know what's stupid? Equating skating to scoring. They aren't the same.

 

[Board Bard]

"Laine is not skating" and "Laine just started skating" are just media narratives. There is just one narrative that fits media at a time, and for sure I remember how that Laine skate-gate was the thing. Media narratives might hold some truth or not, but just that they are parrotted by media doesn't make them truth.

Obviously he cannot blame Maurice about forcing a dysfunctional line. When media asks him about that "Maurice told us that he told you to start skating, is this true?" what else he could say other than "yes, he did"?

How did Laine all in the sudden "stop skating" after demoted back to ELL from top line, and only a week later again "started skating" when Little was replaced with Copp? Is it so that Wheeler and Copp and Stastny remember to tell him before every faceoff that "Patty, remember to skate!", but Little told him "Patty, you don't need to skate much"?

I'm puzzled because I can't understand that narrative of Laine intentionally not skating enough and just started skating when the coach told (coinciding with different linemates) and then stopped skating and re-started skating again after line change?

Maurice himself explained success of Laine and Ehlers with Copp that boys are just excited for the change. So he denied that ELL line was dysfunctional before and just got working by replacing one of that trio of cancer. I can't remember if he tried to push that skating narrative again at that point, but I guess it was just the "excitement".

Words coming out of Laine's mouth are not a media narrative. You thinking Laine always plays the way an NHL player should play is a narrative, and a pretty blind one at that. For about 10 or 12 games, after Maurice had his talk with Laine, Laine played the way an NHL player should. Then he went back to Laine the floater. What is apparent is that Maurice needs to remind him more often, because his memory seems to pretty crappy.

 

[Tommigun]

What is more probable?

An elite 20 (19 at the time) old goal scorer forgetting he needs to skate and plays well when reminded... or that the line he was playing on is just dysfunctional, taking Little's career with it? I think it's just the 19 year old having dementia, that's it.

How can anyone defend ELL? Any other permutation would be better, or at least worth trying. All three players suck when playing together, even though some stats may be fine (like Laine's goals).

 

[cbcwpg]

If Laine is going to ask for and expect to get a $10,000,000 + contract, he needs to be carrying whatever line he is playing on. Laine must be the driving force. Ask Ovi who's the catalyst on his line... it's Ovi, that's who.

You want that kind of money, you better be producing even if your center is my pet cat.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

You know what's stupid? Equating skating to scoring. They aren't the same.

It's literally what people expect better skating to do for Patty, result into more scoring. It's what Maurice said when Patty had his hot streak; "Well, he started moving his feet".

 

[Tommigun]

If Laine is going to ask for and expect to get a $10,000,000 + contract, he needs to be carrying whatever line he is playing on. Laine must be the driving force. Ask Ovi who's the catalyst on his line... it's Ovi, that's who.

You want that kind of money, you better be producing even if your center is my pet cat.

So let me get this straight. Laine produced 44 goals on a dysfunctional line, but he needs to create more offense even with a pet cat as his center. Meanwhile Wheeler gets an 8.5M contract until he's almost 40, but he's good buddies with Scheifele and his points would suffer if he played with Little (to get him going), so that definitely can't happen. Wheeler's contract is good and he deserves the players he meshes with ("but his points would suffer otherwise!!"), while paying Laine at 20 would be bad. Laine also doesn't deserve any players who would make him better, while Wheeler does.
Hot tip: Capitals didn't set up Ovechkin for failure, they tried to capitalise on their investment by hooking him up with centres he meshed with.

Why are people so f***ing hellbent on playing Laine with the one player he doesn't perform with. And same for Little, why f*** up his career as well? Try Laine or Ehlers with Roslovic, try Wheeler with Little, it's the frigging preseason.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Why are people so ****ing hellbent on playing Laine with the one player he doesn't perform with. And same for Little, why **** up his career as well? Try Laine or Ehlers with Roslovic, try Wheeler with Little, it's the frigging preseason.

It is at times like these that we should ask ourselves...

What would Gerard Gallant do?

 

[Kratti]

Another season on 3rd line minutes is not going to destroy Laine as a player. As long as Wheeler is on the team, Laine is not playing with Scheifele and the biggest minutes. And as long as Little is on the team, he'll be the 2nd scoring line center and Laine will play on his wing. Looking forward to another good season from the Jets and continuing personal improvement from Laine.