Player Discussion: Patrik Laine

[Halberdier]

But the fact is Thorburn won't get the same shots so talent is included.

Shooting talent is omitted. Other talent is obviously included, to some degree. But only to some degree.

Thorbs playing with McDavid and Crosby would probably give him higher "shot quality" metrics than for Laine playing with Thorbs and Tie Domi, so "shot quality" (when defined like in Corsica's xGoals & WAR) is highly dependent on your line mates.

Edit: and Laine is shooting from too a far according to these "shot quality" metrics. He shoots from there as his shooting quality is off the charts and he can still beat goalies clean while shooting with "very low quality shots"...

 

[Tommigun]

The Stastny line went pretty cold in the Vegas series, when keyed on by the Knights. Laine became unnoticeable in that series as well.

If we are going to be paying Laine in the 9million range, its absolutely imperative that he drives any line he plays on, consistently. When someone says we will never win a cup with Little playing 2nd line center, I shake my head, as its [mod] trying to exonerate the best talent on that line from carrying their own load.

Laine is in the midst of building his game to a level that can accomplish exactly that. By having Laine on a line where all the heavy lifting is done by a centerman, he will never evolve in to the player we need him to be.

Pairing him with a setup guy happens every power play we get, and that is more than enough to feed Laine from his favorite spot. What we need away from the power play is a player capable of getting on the forecheck, using his size and speed to get possession, cycle and setup.

Would have been funny if the Capitals had thought that way 10+ years ago. “No Ovie you can’t get a playmaking centre because you must create your own offense”.

 

[Tommigun]

I just watched the first period of Oilers game, and I was really disappointed about Laine. I was told he is not motivated at all and is weak, but in the actual game he did show no lack of motivation, played very well and had about 2/3 or more of all those scoring chances by the Jets. Couldn't score though. Had also one of rare body hits and was really involved.

Somehow PLL was really disconnected, but at least Laine and Little tried to do something together. Funny thing was that Perreault barely touched the puck until late period, and it was Laine together with Little making that chase for the puck. I was for sure waiting that to be the opposite.

Only non-motivated players I did spot were Scheifele in regards of defending (he was very eager on attacking and looked great otherwise) and once also Myers didn't want to chase a guy that was going for a breakaway. Otherwise I was surprised about how good motivation most players had for a meaningless pre-season game.

Yeah Laine looked pretty motivated against the Oilers. Against the Flames though... oooh boy, not so much to say the least

 

[PhilJets]

If that was “suffering” then I’ll take other lines “suffering” every year if it means we’re a top 3 team and consistently make the conference finals.

See thats why i placed the reasons of success ahead.

So you are saying thst connor schiefele wheeler line is the reason of that finish and will be the reason?

The line who didnt play together the first part of the year?
The line that wasnt there due to schiefele injury?
And the last part of the year when Laine basically tore the league with Copp and Stastny as his centers with 18 goals in 15 games.

I would keep that line too if it means winning the cup.

But my post marely stated there is still better options for those top 6. As there are other combinations of that being better.

There is a saying...
You can always have a great offensive top line and it can get you nowhere.
But get a solid top 6 defense and a vezina caliber goalie you can reach the finals and might win the cup.

 

[Daximus]

Shooting talent is omitted. Other talent is obviously included, to some degree. But only to some degree.

Thorbs playing with McDavid and Crosby would probably give him higher "shot quality" metrics than for Laine playing with Thorbs and Tie Domi, so "shot quality" (when defined like in Corsica's xGoals & WAR) is highly dependent on your line mates.

Edit: and Laine is shooting from too a far according to these "shot quality" metrics. He shoots from there as his shooting quality is off the charts and he can still beat goalies clean while shooting with "very low quality shots"...

But he just isn't going to play with them so you don't have to worry about it.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Would have been funny if the Capitals had thought that way 10+ years ago. “No Ovie you can’t get a playmaking centre because you must create your own offense”.

Yes, it would be funny, having won multiple cups over that period of time, opposed to the one.

Would have been equally funny had Sid asked for a winger that can do all the heavy lifting for him so he could float to his favourite spots and wait for a pass.

Hey, maybe Sids extra cups woulda gone to Ovie.

Ovie had the talent to lead his team to multiple cups, had his game been a more complete game. His knock was always that his game was not a complete game. Have to say, poor example on your part

 

[Duke749]

Yes, it would be historically funny, having won multiple cups over that period of time, opposed to the one.

Would have been equally funny had Sid asked for a winger that can do all the heavy lifting for him so he could float to his favourite spots and wait for a pass.

Hey, maybe Sids extra cups woulda gone to Ovie.

Ovie had the talent to lead his team to multiple cups, had his game been a more complete game. His knock was always that his game was not a complete game. Have to say, poor example on your part

Considering the lack of support Ovi got in the playoffs, I’m not so sure he’s have more. There were a lot of years where only he showed up.

 

[Ducky10]

Shooting talent is omitted. Other talent is obviously included, to some degree. But only to some degree.

Thorbs playing with McDavid and Crosby would probably give him higher "shot quality" metrics than for Laine playing with Thorbs and Tie Domi, so "shot quality" (when defined like in Corsica's xGoals & WAR) is highly dependent on your line mates.

Edit: and Laine is shooting from too a far according to these "shot quality" metrics. He shoots from there as his shooting quality is off the charts and he can still beat goalies clean while shooting with "very low quality shots"...

"Other talent"? What other talent? To what degree?

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Considering the lack of support Ovi got in the playoffs, I’m not so sure he’s have more. There were a lot of years where only he showed up.

No doubt Ovie showed up, played his but off, and played his game. The problem is his game has never been a complete game, which is why many feel he has failed to win a cup till now.

Washington has had some solid teams around him, that failed to win a cup. With a lesser team and a more rounded engaged Ovie, they win it all.

Some seem to think Laine winning the rocket equals us winning a cup, it doesn’t.

 

[Duke749]

No doubt Ovie showed up, played his but off, and played his game. The problem is his game has never been a complete game, which is why many feel he has failed to win a cup till now.

Washington has had some solid teams around him, that failed to win a cup. With a lesser team and a more rounded engaged Ovie, they win it all.

Some seem to think Laine winning the rocket equals us winning a cup, it doesn’t.

Maybe you should go back and look at the numbers his team put up in the playoffs. There were a bunch of no shows. Even Sid wouldn’t be able to carry a lot of those teams.

 

[Plural]

No doubt Ovie showed up, played his but off, and played his game. The problem is his game has never been a complete game, which is why many feel he has failed to win a cup till now.

Washington has had some solid teams around him, that failed to win a cup. With a lesser team and a more rounded engaged Ovie, they win it all.

Some seem to think Laine winning the rocket equals us winning a cup, it doesn’t.

You didn't watch a single game of Caps playoffs in the past 12 years did you?

 

[Tommigun]

Yes, it would be funny, having won multiple cups over that period of time, opposed to the one.

Would have been equally funny had Sid asked for a winger that can do all the heavy lifting for him so he could float to his favourite spots and wait for a pass.

Hey, maybe Sids extra cups woulda gone to Ovie.

Ovie had the talent to lead his team to multiple cups, had his game been a more complete game. His knock was always that his game was not a complete game. Have to say, poor example on your part

Are you serious?

So in addition to being maybe the best goal scorer ever the reason the Caps won “only” one cup in 10+ years is Ovie. If he had been more of a complete player, and if he just had filled all the rest of the roles in hockey (power forward, grinder, playmaker, driver etc) he *alone* would have lifted the Caps to a couple more cups? Yeah bad Ovie, bad. It’s all on you for failing the Caps.

 

[Tommigun]

No Buff, let’s not complement you with a more defensively minded partner. No Enström, you must learn to do the offense on your own. What is this new fashioned mentality to deliberately misuse players and put them in roles where their talent is diminished, instead of building functional lines?

It’s weird that the argument not to play Laine with a more playmaking minded centre is that it somehow would be a bad thing... taking points away from Wheeler or something. It’s Little more than anyone who needs new line mates, Laine scored 44 goals last season so he will cope. It’d just be nice to have three functional scoring lines, and Wheeler really should play a bit with Little. But maybe his new salary has gotten to his head and he only cares about his apples, that’s the impression I get by reading the garbage theories here. I really don’t think Wheeler is that egoistic.

 

[LowLefty]

No Buff, let’s not complement you with a more defensively minded partner. No Enström, you must learn to do the offense on your own. What is this new fashioned mentality to deliberately misuse players and put them in roles where their talent is diminished, instead of building functional lines?

It’s weird that the argument not to play Laine with a more playmaking minded centre is that it somehow would be a bad thing... taking points away from Wheeler or something. It’s Little more than anyone who needs new line mates, Laine scored 44 goals last season so he will cope. It’d just be nice to have three functional scoring lines, and Wheeler really should play a bit with Little. But maybe his new salary has gotten to his head and he only cares about his apples, that’s the impression I get by reading the garbage theories here. I really don’t think Wheeler is that egoistic.

One theory's as good as the next on this board - for instance:

Scheif loves to shoot the puck - have you noticed that? And every season he becomes more of a shooter - did you happen to catch him in the PO's last season?

Wheels is a passer - and becoming more of one every season - he's also good at it. And, he loves to QB the PP and he loves to set up his buddy Scheif.

So you have a shooter (Scheif) and a passer (Wheels) that play really well together - at least that's the theory.

Then along comes Connor - he's a play maker who's super nifty, works well in tight along the boards, and loves to clean things up in front of the net - so you know he's going to fit nicely.

So where does Laine fit on this line? How is Scheif (who fancies himself a shooter) supposed to work well with another shooter? Scheif's game is evolving - he's become a very good shooter who loves to work the boards with his buddy and then set himself up for quick, tight one timer's in the low slot - and he's really good at it.

IMHO, Scheif does not want to get hooked up with another shooter - he's the shooter on this line.

 

[Tommigun]

One theory's as good as the next on this board - for instance:

Scheif loves to shoot the puck - have you noticed that? And every season he becomes more of a shooter - did you happen to catch him in the PO's last season?

Wheels is a passer - and becoming more of one every season - he's also good at it. And, he loves to QB the PP and he loves to set up his buddy Scheif.

So you have a shooter (Scheif) and a passer (Wheels) that play really well together - at least that's the theory.

Then along comes Connor - he's a play maker who's super nifty, works well in tight along the boards, and loves to clean things up in front of the net - so you know he's going to fit nicely.

So where does Laine fit on this line? How is Scheif (who fancies himself a shooter) supposed to work well with another shooter? Scheif's game is evolving - he's become a very good shooter who loves to work the boards with his buddy and then set himself up for quick, tight one timer's in the low slot - and he's really good at it.

IMHO, Scheif does not want to get hooked up with another shooter - he's the shooter on this line.

I wasn’t saying to put Laine in Wheeler’s place, I’d probably put Perreault or Ehlers there. What I said was that Wheeler needs to drive some play to get Little going. Put Laine on the third line or keep him with Little and Wheeler, I don’t care. I wasn’t even talking about Laine there.

But what is it with this Wheeler loves to do this and that with his buddy Scheifele? Is he really so egoistic that he puts his own apples ahead of the needs of the team, in this case getting Little going? The amount of points Wheeler would lose is less than what Little would gain. We should play the best lines, not some buddy lines where people do whatever they like. That’s anarchy.

You are once again perpetuating a theory that the only thing Wheeler cares about is his assists, and how he loves to play with his buddy Scheifele, instead of forming the best possible lines. I REFUSE to believe Wheeler being such an asshole. That garbage needs to stop.

 

[Jack722]

Laine's going to play on the first line, and he's going to play with an elite playmaker. Why not have him develop his game in exactly that situation?

I'm not buying that playing someone less TOI down the lineup is somehow better for development.

 

[Tommigun]

Laine's going to play on the first line, and he's going to play with an elite playmaker. Why not have him develop his game in exactly that situation?

I'm not buying that playing someone less TOI down the lineup is somehow better for development.

I don't think it'd necessarily be a bad thing to do so for a short while. Jets really need Little to start producing and if that's what it takes then so be it IMHO. He's under contract for the next 5 (?) years so it's not really an option to not facilite it somehow.

Wheeler would be the perfect catalyst for that, and he's a team player no matter what some say.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Maybe you should go back and look at the numbers his team put up in the playoffs. There were a bunch of no shows. Even Sid wouldn’t be able to carry a lot of those teams.

I stated Ovie was solid in playoffs, no where am I stating otherwise.
Ovie has never been regarded as a defensive player and has had the knock that he forgoes his defensive responsibilities for offensive opportunities.

A more rounded game from Ovie may have lead to better playoff results.

 

[Duke749]

I stated Ovie was solid in playoffs, no where am I stating otherwise.
Ovie has never been regarded as a defensive player and has had the knock that he forgoes his defensive responsibilities for offensive opportunities.

A more rounded game from Ovie may have lead to better playoff results.

Look at his team in recent years.

 

[Hobble]

No Buff, let’s not complement you with a more defensively minded partner. No Enström, you must learn to do the offense on your own. What is this new fashioned mentality to deliberately misuse players and put them in roles where their talent is diminished, instead of building functional lines?

It’s weird that the argument not to play Laine with a more playmaking minded centre is that it somehow would be a bad thing... taking points away from Wheeler or something. It’s Little more than anyone who needs new line mates, Laine scored 44 goals last season so he will cope. It’d just be nice to have three functional scoring lines, and Wheeler really should play a bit with Little. But maybe his new salary has gotten to his head and he only cares about his apples, that’s the impression I get by reading the garbage theories here. I really don’t think Wheeler is that egoistic.

I still can't get over how Hellebuyck lets his glove to all the catching. 'bout time we see his bare hand show us what its made of.

 

[PhilJets]

The more the days goes by the more i think

Little needs Wheeler to get him going than Laine needing Schiefele.
Laine is a point magnet he will find a way.
He found a way last year with that ridiculous ice time the coach gave him.

I like Little.
The more Jets gets him going offensively the more the Jets are a team to be reckon with.

Little and Laine are both very good players with the style of play and chemistry that don't match.

The line switching for me now is more on to get Little going. His success as the 2C will check the only question mark in this deep Jets line up overall.

 

[Ukkosenjumala]

Who doesn't want to take advantage of that?

That's not what people are saying at all.

Not literally no but if people see that as a bad line and still don't want to look at other options...

You act like Stastny did something. Frankly Laine went on a tear because of Laine. He was finding open space. He was moving his feet. He was doing everything that he didn’t do early in the year. Stastny wasn’t some kind of glue. That was all Laine creating on his own and what he is capable of when he really takes over.

Whether Stastny did anything or not, that line was very effective for a good period of time and I doubt Ehlers or Laine suddenly fixed the weaknesses people say are systemic to their game which suggests there's another way for them to play the game that makes them more effective than they are right now. If it was just Laine putting his work boots on, great but I've yet to see that kind of a period with Little so i'm skeptical.

 

[Ducky10]

What does Laine need to develop? Is there a discussion to be had about that?

Just curious.

 

[Ukkosenjumala]

Also while Laine obviously picked up his game during that time, saying Stastny didn't do anything is revisionism. He found Laine with passes in places where Little didn't, worked well off the rush with both, set up nice screens and blocked guys allowing laine to get into better shooting lanes. Overall he just seemed hungrier, he came into a situation he liked, looking to make most of it on a contract year.

 

[Halberdier]

But he just isn't going to play with them so you don't have to worry about it.

Obviously that was just an example of how xGoals work, and why it's so unreliable for Laine, unless it's adjusted by shooting talent.