Player Discussion: Patrik Laine Part IX: The Precursor [Mod warning in OP]

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Ok. Lets say Laine is not a star. Just a really good finisher. Now who do we play him with?

Lots of speculation and excuses here. I think that ELL is just garbage. That's all there is to it. Maybe i'm 100% wrong but it's hard to say without any drastic changes.

Maurice in tonight's pre-game interview:

"Patty's made huge improvements from his last year to this year. Really. Much better player hockey player all-around, the routes that he runs, how he's readable. And we will...in general...the winnipeg fans, and i'm one of them, can have a tendency to look at the goals and determine whether he's played well or not, but he's played good games without scoring a goal"

He was asked if Patty looks slower.

"Slower?...he does not look slower. Sometimes last year he might've been going faster in the wrong direction"

So either we're all silly or Maurice is spewing garbage. Choose.

Play him with whoever is best for the team, not necessarily whoever is best for his individual production.

I take comments like that with a grain of salt, I don't expect Maurice to trash Laine to reporters. Maybe Laine has played a better positional game and the better defensive structure has quashed his offensive creativeness, because something has. He created more 5v5 last year on his own, both stats and my eye-test agree with that.

 

[Halberdier]

I follow pretty closely. Scheifele had returned from injury long before February 2017. Early December 2016 as I recall.

Lots of combos were run after his return. It would actually be a cool thread to have GDT lineups listed in one thread to save arguing over such matters.

Obviously in game changes would even more difficult to account for, but having the initial lineups would be a pretty good resource, even if it's simply for historical purposes.

I was talking about this season. Scheifele was off 16 games and it was more or less Wheeler with Laine during that period. And during that period Jets did even better than with ELL.

Last season Scheifele did not have a major injury, missed total 3 games.

 

[BB88]

Who had thoughts of 60 goals and 1,5 PPG for this season? I certainly didn’t, and I don’t remember anyone really saying anything like that. I was more expecting 40-50 goals and maybe 70-90 points for his season.

Sure he is far away from those numbers too, but with the usage that he has had, those numbers that I was expecting will not be possible to any player in nowadays hockey.

Do you seriously have to make strawmen of what I posted? I mean, I never said that he couldn’t be even a superstar right now. I don’t define superstar with the player being just the wo called complete player. Those players can be important for sure, but for me at least it’s not the only criteria for s player being a superstar.

Brett Hull in his prime was very much dependant on having a great playmaker centering him. But I think not many people then wouldn’t have called him a superstar when he scored loads of goals with his slapshot on the PP. He still scored way more goals than anyone else and he helped his team enormously with that.

I think this complete player thing is at least a bit overrated nowadays. There are different ways to be a real superstar and being a so called complete player is just one of them.

I do believe that with th right kind of a role and usage of his strengths Laine could be even at the moment at least close of being a superstar. Of course not as a complete player, which he will most probably never be anyway, but as a sniper who could possible top the whole league with scored goals. Not really that far fetched when he is with this abysmal usage only 8 goals behind the league leading Ovechkin.

Just in the week or so this thread has had posts saying he could have 40 goals at this day if he had different linemates(Scheifele) or go 1.3-1.5ppg this season.
How can you have good talks when there are some pushing for those numbers here? You can't, it's just impossible.

I don't think you have to be a 2way player to be called a superstar. But I do think a superstar can't be someone who needs 2 linemates to carry him or someone who can't produce with high end talent, like Ehlers& Little. Superstars produce without excuses, they make the lines better, they make things happen and are scary when they have the puck.
Laine is 19y so it's not the end of World and doesn't mean he doesn't have that potential, but he's not there today.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Play him with whoever is best for the team, not necessarily whoever is best for his individual production.

I take comments like that with a grain of salt, I don't expect Maurice to trash Laine to reporters. Maybe Laine has played a better positional game and the better defensive structure has quashed his offensive creativeness, because something has. He created more 5v5 last year on his own, both stats and my eye-test agree with that.

True, but he doesn't need to lie to them either.

 

[Halberdier]

Play him with whoever is best for the team, not necessarily whoever is best for his individual production.

Literally nobody ever asked for that.

 

[Bartho]

At least no ELL. But Copp? He can't make a play to save his life. He only makes plays way too close to net and they don't turn into anything. He is the guy who forces cross crease on every single play. North-South player with hands of wood. Zero imagination. Oh well maybe he can stay out of the way and dig pucks.

ECL on the third line is much, much less stupid than the prediction that Laine would revolutionize the sport of hockey like aviation technology revolutionized travel.

 

[Gm0ney]

But how has the TEAM performed with Laine/Little/Ehlers as a line? Maurice has had them together basically since February 1st of 2017.

The Jets are 50-25-12 since that time & 24-25-4 last season leading up to that move.

Last time I checked hockey was a team game with wins being the most important statistic.

L-L-E's GF/GA hasn't been too impressive - they're 16-16 this year at ES. Jets are 75-59 without any of them on the ice. Outscoring is a pretty important statistic when it comes to making wins happen...

Player 1	Player 2	Player 3	GP	TOI	GF	GA	GF%
Bryan Little	Nikolaj Ehlers	Patrik Laine	57	342.0	16	16	50.00
Bryan Little	Nikolaj Ehlers	w/o Patrik Laine	57	259.3	15	10	60.00
Bryan Little	w/o Nikolaj Ehlers	Patrik Laine	57	118.6	5	8	38.46
Bryan Little	w/o Nikolaj Ehlers	w/o Patrik Laine	57	61.7	2	2	50.00
w/o Bryan Little	Nikolaj Ehlers	Patrik Laine	57	35.9	1	2	33.33
w/o Bryan Little	Nikolaj Ehlers	w/o Patrik Laine	57	157.6	7	11	38.89
w/o Bryan Little	w/o Nikolaj Ehlers	Patrik Laine	57	259.2	15	11	57.69
w/o Bryan Little	w/o Nikolaj Ehlers	w/o Patrik Laine	57	1534.2	75	59	55.97

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In terms of out-scoring, Laine does better without Little and Ehlers, and Little and Ehlers do better without Laine (primarily because Perreault-Little-Ehlers has been dominant this year). Put them all together and they're just treading water.

 

[Kratti]

Compared to Roslovic and Connor, I don't think Laine plays the game of hockey in a way the Jets/PoMo prefer it to be played. Ergo, I don't believe there is a place for Laine on the Jets top six going forward.

What the Jets could use is an upgrade at 3C via a trade, not more scoring wingers who need top 6 ice time.

 

[DashingDane]

I just think it's ironic that a large portion of HFmainboards consider the Jets top 9 among the five best in the league and yet here we are on HFJets talking about top 6 players being held back The majority of the league would kill to have the talent the Jets have.

 

[Lowered Expectations]

In early season it took about 4 games pointless streak for Laine to get the whips out and people to want him "some time in AHL to improve his game". Now it only takes two pointless games to get people to say he have no place in top 6. Being 19 and scoring 61 goals in 130 games and doomed to bottom 6 in Jets - being leading goal scorer with 25. I knew Jets are talented team, but this is something else

 

[FinnJet]

As much I'd like to see Laine play top minutes with Sheif and Wheeler and score twice as much he did last season, I can also see the point of the current situation. No pain = no gain, as they say..
Laine with Sheif works, it's clear. Now Laine is stretched to play out of his comfort zone and as he is still a "puppy", this is the right time to do so. Old dogs doesn't learn new tricks etc...

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Literally nobody ever asked for that.

Have you read any of this thread????

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Compared to Roslovic and Connor, I don't think Laine plays the game of hockey in a way the Jets/PoMo prefer it to be played. Ergo, I don't believe there is a place for Laine on the Jets top six going forward.

What the Jets could use is an upgrade at 3C via a trade, not more scoring wingers who need top 6 ice time.

That is absurd.

 

[Kratti]

That is absurd.

Really? How so. Connor and Roslovic are clearly players whose style PoMo likes more and they can produce points as well. Ehlers already has his big contract signed, they clearly believe in him aswell. The vets of top 6 all earn their place. There's no room or reason(or need) to play Laine in the top six going forward.

 

[scelaton]

And why to waste not only the best goal scorer of the team but two best goal scorers for the team. Insanity.

Correction-he's the best PP goal scorer and will be kept on the PP, no doubt. Until his metrics improve 5v5 perhaps he needs to be developed like any other mere mortal 19 year old NHLer.

That if we just look at a single stat to determine the overall effectiveness of the player, we should be absolutely crucifying some other players, which we, for some reason aren't.

No one is crucifying anyone, least of all Patrick. He's a phenomenal 19 year old sniper. But, he is as yet incomplete as a player. That's all. The critique of...irrationally-exuberant posts claiming he other than that is what has led us down this bumpy road.

"Patty's made huge improvements from his last year to this year. Really. Much better player hockey player all-around, the routes that he runs, how he's readable. And we will...in general...the winnipeg fans, and i'm one of them, can have a tendency to look at the goals and determine whether he's played well or not, but he's played good games without scoring a goal"
He was asked if Patty looks slower.
"Slower?...he does not look slower. Sometimes last year he might've been going faster in the wrong direction"
So either we're all silly or Maurice is spewing garbage. Choose.

It's neither. Maurice tends to protect his players and emphasize the positive. If anything, this should dispell the notion that Laine is in his "doghouse". If anything, Patrik has been given too much opportunity in the top 6 relative to his 5v5 game. If he is played lower down in the lineup, perhaps it is to shelter him and allow him to regain confidence. The idea that, in so doing, Maurice, or any Jets coach, would be "punishing", rather than developing, one of their most valuable assets, is silly.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Really? How so. Connor and Roslovic are clearly players whose style PoMo likes more and they can produce points as well. Ehlers already has his big contract signed, they clearly believe in him aswell. The vets of top 6 all earn their place. There's no room or reason(or need) to play Laine in the top six going forward.

Haters gonna hate. You're not gonna find a 30 goal scorer playing on 3rd line in any team.

Correction-he's the best PP goal scorer and will be kept on the PP, no doubt. Until his metrics improve 5v5 perhaps he needs to be developed like any other mere mortal 19 year old NHLer.

Do you realize that he has the 3rd most even strength goals on the team? Does anybody here realize that?

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Really? How so. Connor and Roslovic are clearly players whose style PoMo likes more and they can produce points as well. Ehlers already has his big contract signed, they clearly believe in him aswell. The vets of top 6 all earn their place. There's no room or reason(or need) to play Laine in the top six going forward.

He's going to have close to 70 goals by the time he turns 20.

I like Connor and Roslovic, they're good players. They have proven nothing close to that, and they're older.

 

[Halberdier]

Have you read any of this thread????

Pretty much all of these Laine thread.

No-one asked to put Laine into position where his personal stats got pumped up in expence of the team success.

Quite the contrary. When you utilize your best cannon properly, team will benefit most. Playing Ehlers and Laine (and Little) together serves no-ones interests at least unless Scheifele is in the middle of them as that is the only proven combination where Laine and Ehlers have been productive together.

 

[scelaton]

Do you realize that he has the 3rd most even strength goals on the team? Does anybody here realize that?

You're kidding--he's a good goal scorer??? I never for a million years......

But seriously...it's not about his 5v5 offensive production, which is nothing special (lower P/60 than Connor, Perreault and close to Armia). It's about offensive ability vs defensive liability...and for my money, I would take any of the aforementioned 3 players above him 5v5.

Sincerely hope that changes in time.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kaako Kappo]

You're kidding--he's a good goal scorer??? I never for a million years......

But seriously...it's not about his 5v5 offensive production, which is nothing special (lower P/60 than Connor, Perreault and close to Armia). It's about offensive ability vs defensive liability...and for my money, I would take any of the aforementioned 3 players above him 5v5.

Sincerely hope that changes in time.

Connor played with Scheifele and Wheeler & after that with Wheeler & Laine. You do not get to compare his P/60 to Laine. I don't think the comparison is very fair. Connor also has worse defensive stats than Laine.

 

[Psych0dad]

ECL on the third line is much, much less stupid than the prediction that Laine would revolutionize the sport of hockey like aviation technology revolutionized travel.

True. Not that I have any idea why you would compare such a ridiculous idea to using Copp as a playmaker. Don't see a correlation.

I mean, it is incredibly stupid to touch glowing hot metal, but it's still a better idea than manually exploding a nuclear bomb.

Copp as a center for the two best goalscorers in the team at 3rd line minutes is still all kinds of stupid. But it isn't the most stupid thing you can possibly imagine. Does that make it a good idea in your opinion?

It can work about the same as ELL if Laine just does things alone just like he had to in ELL. Copp is offensively useless but he can maybe help out in getting the puck on the boards. That's what he can offer. And it's not enough.

 

[Psych0dad]

Just in the week or so this thread has had posts saying he could have 40 goals at this day if he had different linemates(Scheifele) or go 1.3-1.5ppg this season.
How can you have good talks when there are some pushing for those numbers here? You can't, it's just impossible.

I don't think you have to be a 2way player to be called a superstar. But I do think a superstar can't be someone who needs 2 linemates to carry him or someone who can't produce with high end talent, like Ehlers& Little. Superstars produce without excuses, they make the lines better, they make things happen and are scary when they have the puck.
Laine is 19y so it's not the end of World and doesn't mean he doesn't have that potential, but he's not there today.

Those are definitely realistic numbers. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. You'll learn.

And why is it impossible to discuss when other people have differing views? Have you ever lived with other people it's kinda one of the first things you need to learn.

 

[Festinator]

Really? How so. Connor and Roslovic are clearly players whose style PoMo likes more and they can produce points as well. Ehlers already has his big contract signed, they clearly believe in him aswell. The vets of top 6 all earn their place. There's no room or reason(or need) to play Laine in the top six going forward.

Imagine being able to say with a straight face that there's no room or reason for our top goal scorer to be in the top 6 after leading the team in goals since he stepped onto the ice a year and a half ago.

 

[Duke749]

Connor played with Scheifele and Wheeler & after that with Wheeler & Laine. You do not get to compare his P/60 to Laine. I don't think the comparison is very fair. Connor also has worse defensive stats than Laine.

And Connor has also played on the 4th line for extended periods.

 

[Duke749]

Those are definitely realistic numbers. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. You'll learn.

And why is it impossible to discuss when other people have differing views? Have you ever lived with other people it's kinda one of the first things you need to learn.

This is a bit ironic.