Player Discussion: Patrik Laine Part IX: The Precursor [Mod warning in OP]

[nobody important]

Yet Ehlers has been applauded for his new-found two-way game in recent news. Maurice has said as much in recent interviews & the Free Press ran "Ehlers Becoming Elite Two-Way winger" on it's sports cover last week.

In the 15 games since the Jets are 10-2-3 and Ehlers, playing on a line with Bryan Little and Mathieu Perreault, has been a big factor.

"In the last month he's been fantastic at it," said Jets head coach Paul Maurice. "So, Mark goes down. How the bench gets run changes. Who comes off the bench against certain players? Bryan Little's line (is) playing a lot of nights against the other team's best — certainly on the road and he's been — I'm trying not to exaggerate this too much — fantastic relative to where he was. But even in non-relative terms, he's been very effective in the defensive parts of the game."

At the same time, Ehlers goal-scoring has dried up. An empty-netter in Saturday's 3-0 win over the visiting Colorado Avalanche ended an eight-game drought. Furthermore, two goals against the Buffalo Sabres on Jan. 7 were his only output (in addition to eight assists) in 11 January games despite averaging 2.64 shots per game.

"Right now I'm playing with Bryan Little and Perreault and they're great players, they've been in the league for a lot longer that I have. They're exciting to play with and we're creating a lot of chances right now but we need to find a way to put it in the net."

source: Ehlers becoming elite two-way winger

I'm not sure what criteria are used to determine what makes someone an "elite two way winger". It may even be an oxymoron. Two way player sounds like one of those "participation awards" so that players who can't score still feel good about themselves. If it's Maurice's goal to turn Ehlers into another checking line dynamo like Armia and Copp, well that's not what I'm paying to see. I want Ehlers and Laine playing with a center who can complement their offensive gifts.

 

[Psych0dad]

This was a credible source. There's lots of eyes here. Someone else will likely have seen it as well.

If it was a credible source you would be able to provide the source.

 

[Psych0dad]

Sorry I can't follow this thread that closely because of what it's turned into. Every time I drop by I always regret it. We should just move it to the main boards and I wouldn't be tempted to click on it

So we should move the thread to avoid tempting you?

I can think of a less intrusive way of dealing with the issue. Don't click on it.

 

[Halberdier]

I have only read portions of this thread. Pages and pages go unread. What do likes have to do with anything? (Don't answer)

Of course I will answer. If your post basically includes only one obscure non-relared stat that "proves" how bad a certain player is playing D and then it gets likes, it tells that not only that kind of absurd claims exists but also that these views might be shared more broadly than you maybe want to believe.

Edit: I did re-quote the original post for you from couple of pages ago, but apparently some helpful moderator deleted it.

 

[Romang67]

Attempting to disprove something using one's subjective eye-test seems a bit counterintuitive when discussing bias.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

If it was a credible source you would be able to provide the source.

Would I? Can you provide a credible source for something you once saw amidst your 892 posts? How much effort should I apply? It's why I asked if anyone else saw it. I didn't ask for you to comment on what you or the other 4857 hfboards members currently online didn't see.

It's not like I have a history here of stating absolute BS. I'm also not about to search in vain when eventually someone else's memory may turn it up without driving myself crazy in the process looking for a needle in the proverbial hfboards haystack for a comment brought up sometime over the past 6 months.

 

[Halberdier]

Attempting to disprove something using one's subjective eye-test seems a bit counterintuitive when discussing bias.

Of course it is.

Though more fruitful than claiming something ridiculous based on Laine's relCF% while hiding about twice as "bad" relCF% of Wheeler and Connor and almost as "bad" relCF% of Scheifele.


Laine should apparently shoot with much worse accuracy to boost up his relCF% numbers. And allow more sure goals for the opponent to also boost his relCF%. You don't get rebounds from goals.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Of course I will answer. If your post basically includes only one obscure non-relared stat that "proves" how bad a certain player is playing D and then it gets likes, it tells that not only that kind of absurd claims exists but also that these views might be shared more broadly than you maybe want to believe.

Edit: I did re-quote the original post for you from couple of pages ago, but apparently some helpful moderator deleted it.

No stat proves anything. The same "stat" can be interpreted differently by different people. Likes are the silliest stat of all for instance but you think it means something.

Laine's game has some holes in it. Those holes are real. It's why he isn't being used on this team as 1st line RW. Because Wheeler has outplayed him. It won't always be so. Laine's is only 19 years old

 

[Romang67]

Of course it is.

Though more fruitful than claiming something ridiculous based on Laine's relCF% while hiding about twice as "bad" relCF% of Wheeler and Connor and almost as "bad" relCF% of Scheifele.


Laine should apparently shoot with much worse accuracy to boost up his relCF% numbers. And allow more sure goals for the opponent to also boost his relCF%. You don't get rebounds from goals.

Is it more fruitful? Who can shout loudest, the people who think they have seen Laine struggled, or the people who think they have seen Laine done well?

 

[Halberdier]

Is it more fruitful? Who can shout loudest, the people who think they have seen Laine struggled, or the people who think they have seen Laine done well?

We agree on this. Just saying even that "fits my eyetest" is better and more fruitful than basically lying by dishonest using of stats.

I have no problem that people have silly opinions on Laine. I have problem that people pretend and claim that nobody is having ridiculously negative opinions on Laine.

I'm also sick tired with this thread and all these "briliant new ideas" that gets circulated all over the pages Laine has had 2-3 games with 0+0.

 

[grieves]

The point remains that if Relative Corsi For percentage is the basis for Laine not being in the top line, what is Wheeler and Connor doing there?

They also have worse offensive numbers than Laine and Chef.

Therefore, if Laine is better defensively and offensively, why is he not utilized there? It makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

They were completely dominating the league. The switch to ELL was when I suspect they were starting to evaluate how expensive it is going to get come negotiation time.

https://thehockeywriters.com/scheifele-and-laine-a-dangerous-duo/
Laine and Scheifele establishing themselves as dynamic duo

If someone is seriously arguing that they needed 80 games to figure out ELL does not work, is that really the most plausible scenario? And think about what that means if it is the case.

Why to keep Ehlers and Laine together?

And why to waste not only the best goal scorer of the team but two best goal scorers for the team. Insanity.

But how has the TEAM performed with Laine/Little/Ehlers as a line? Maurice has had them together basically since February 1st of 2017.

The Jets are 50-25-12 since that time & 24-25-4 last season leading up to that move.

Last time I checked hockey was a team game with wins being the most important statistic.

 

[Halberdier]

No stat proves anything. The same "stat" can be interpreted differently by different people. Likes are the silliest stat of all for instance but you think it means something.

Laine's game has some holes in it. Those holes are real. It's why he isn't being used on this team as 1st line RW. Because Wheeler has outplayed him. It won't always be so. Laine's is only 19 years old

We agree, mostly.

Obviously some stats proves something. Eg. Gretzky having a whole lot goals proves that indeed he knew how to score a lot. Wins and goals are primary stats and in the end they prove a lot about the past success.

Secondary stats (such as corsi-related ones) can also have a lot of value when used with care. In this particular case we addressed, it was not the case.

 

[Halberdier]

But how has the TEAM performed with Laine/Little/Ehlers as a line? Maurice has with them together basically since February 1st of 2017.

The Jets are 50-25-12 since that time & 24-25-4 last season leading up to that move.

Last time I checked hockey was a team game with wins being the most important statistic.

I don't know how closely you have followed, but Scheifele was 16 games out and ELL was not playing together. And it went fine. Actually it went better, even.

 

[grieves]

But how has the TEAM performed with Laine/Little/Ehlers as a line? Maurice has with them together basically since February 1st of 2017.

We're 50-25-12 since that time & 24-25-4 last season leading up to that move.

Last time I checked hockey was a team game with wins being the most important statistic.

You are focusing too much on wins again.

We had defensive break-downs all over the place. The top line last season were vastly out-scoring their opposition. The problem was not with that line.

The problem was that they needed to score 4 goals every night to out-score the defensive breakdowns and poor goaltending. Helle's off-season training is absolutely a crucial piece of the puzzle. His muscle-wizardry training really paid off.

That's it for tonight ->

 

[Aavco Cup]

We agree, mostly.

Obviously some stats proves something. Eg. Gretzky having a whole lot goals proves that indeed he knew how to score a lot. Wins and goals are primary stats and in the end they prove a lot about the past success.

Secondary stats (such as corsi-related ones) can also have a lot of value when used with care. In this particular case we addressed, it was not the case.

Stats can demonstrate things, they rarely prove anything

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

I guess Ehlers needs to start producing on his own too, that's why he's on pace for lower point totals than last year, yes?

The point here has been that the Ehlers Little Laine line has zero chemistry, and there's probably never gonna be any chemistry, so try something new. Hockey is a team game and everyone needs support from their linemates. Why is this "produce on your own" requirement only applied to Patty?

Ehlers- Copp - Laine is fine because it can't be much worse than ELL.

Ehlers does need to produce better on his own as well.

I agree that ELL wasn't working, but Laine is a big reason why. We all saw how much better that line was with Perreault.

I'm fine with trying to move them around and find something that works, suggesting that Laine is a star and then saying he has to play with Scheifele or it's a waste is contradictory. If he is a star he should be able to create his own offense. He can't do that right now.

 

[Halberdier]

^ Helle has been great, but he would not been that much of help if we did not get also Myers, Kulikov and Trouba as well. And overall the defensive game has gotten better despite some total failures such as 2 first games (with Mason, yes, but boy those 5 players on ice looked clueless)

 

[Maukkis]

You are focusing too much on wins again.

We had defensive break-downs all over the place. The top line last season were vastly out-scoring their opposition. The problem was not with that line.

The problem was that they needed to score 4 goals every night to out-score the defensive breakdowns and poor goaltending. Helle's off-season training is absolutely a crucial piece of the puzzle. His muscle-wizardry training really paid off.

Have you considered the fact that our overly offensive style of last year might have caused quite a bit of goals against?

Hellebuyck has been a factor, and a huge one at that, but he is not the sole reason for this positive change. The more defensive playstyle has limited the chances we are allowing, which has helped Hellebuyck (again, not denying his individual development) do his job correctly.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

You are focusing too much on wins again.

We had defensive break-downs all over the place. The top line last season were vastly out-scoring their opposition. The problem was not with that line.

The problem was that they needed to score 4 goals every night to out-score the defensive breakdowns and poor goaltending. Helle's off-season training is absolutely a crucial piece of the puzzle. His muscle-wizardry training really paid off.

That's it for tonight ->

You can focus too much on wins?

But yes Bucky's off-season core training with Adam Francilia should be the biggest story of this season. Pet peeve when local hockey scribes try to attribute this years success to anything other than his summer with Alpha Hockey Inc.

Connor is currently the pinup boy of their webpage:

ALPHA HOCKEY INC. | A NHLPA CERTIFIED FULL SERVICE HOCKEY AGENCY

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Ehlers does need to produce better on his own as well.

I agree that ELL wasn't working, but Laine is a big reason why. We all saw how much better that line was with Perreault.

I'm fine with trying to move them around and find something that works, suggesting that Laine is a star and then saying he has to play with Scheifele or it's a waste is contradictory. If he is a star he should be able to create his own offense. He can't do that right now.

Ok. Lets say Laine is not a star. Just a really good finisher. Now who do we play him with?

Lots of speculation and excuses here. I think that ELL is just garbage. That's all there is to it. Maybe i'm 100% wrong but it's hard to say without any drastic changes.

Maurice in tonight's pre-game interview:

"Patty's made huge improvements from his last year to this year. Really. Much better player hockey player all-around, the routes that he runs, how he's readable. And we will...in general...the winnipeg fans, and i'm one of them, can have a tendency to look at the goals and determine whether he's played well or not, but he's played good games without scoring a goal"

He was asked if Patty looks slower.

"Slower?...he does not look slower. Sometimes last year he might've been going faster in the wrong direction"

So either we're all silly or Maurice is spewing garbage. Choose.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

I don't know how closely you have followed, but Scheifele was 16 games out and ELL was not playing together. And it went fine. Actually it went better, even.

I follow pretty closely. Scheifele had returned from injury long before February 2017. Early December 2016 as I recall.

Lots of combos were run after his return. It would actually be a cool thread to have GDT lineups listed in one thread to save arguing over such matters.

Obviously in game changes would even more difficult to account for, but having the initial lineups would be a pretty good resource, even if it's simply for historical purposes.

 

[BB88]

You seem to take some kind of special joy in the fact that he's not at a superstar level seeing as you point it out so many times. The talks were different because he came off a 36 goal rookie season while suffering a concussion, having been without a proper off season in like two years and missing alot of PP time. It seemed like he was poised to take the next step to being one of the top scorers in the league and if some of those saying it were wrong atleast they put themselves on the line on record saying it.

I love Laine and I want him to become a superstar, but I can't write to this post that he is there. I have a issue with posters who basically claim he's among the highest tier of superstars because it kills the chance to a quality conversation right away.

We can't have any good talks here, and it's a damm shame.

 

[Halberdier]

Stats can demonstrate things, they rarely prove anything

Quod Erat Demonstrandum ;-)

Agreed. Only those straightforward claims that are statistical by nature can be proved by just showing some stats. Like "there is more people in Canada than in Finland".

"My father is stronger than your father" or "player X is better defensively than player Y" are not that kind of claims given that there is no accepted single measure for being "stronger" or "better defensively".

 

[Ippenator]

So you're basically saying he's not anywhere close to a superstar level player and has lots of work to do.
The talks here were a bit different sounding in the summer.

There can't be this many excuses yet at the same time thoughts 60 goals/1.5ppg pace would have been possible this year.

Who had thoughts of 60 goals and 1,5 PPG for this season? I certainly didn’t, and I don’t remember anyone really saying anything like that. I was more expecting 40-50 goals and maybe 70-90 points for his season.

Sure he is far away from those numbers too, but with the usage that he has had, those numbers that I was expecting will not be possible to any player in nowadays hockey.

Do you seriously have to make strawmen of what I posted? I mean, I never said that he couldn’t be even a superstar right now. I don’t define superstar with the player being just a so called complete player. Those players can be important for sure, but for me at least it’s not the only criteria for a player being a real superstar.

Brett Hull in his prime was very much dependant on having a great playmaker centering him. But I think not many people then wouldn’t have called him a superstar when he scored loads of goals with his slapshot on the PP. He still scored way more goals than anyone else and he helped his team enormously with that.

I think this complete player thing is at least a bit overrated nowadays. There are different ways to be a real superstar and being a so called complete player is just one of them.

I do believe that with the right kind of a role and usage of his strengths Laine could be even at the moment at least close of being a superstar. Of course not as a complete player, which he will most probably never be anyway, but as a sniper who could possibly top the whole league with scored goals. Not really that far fetched when he is with this abysmal usage only 8 goals behind the league leading Ovechkin.