Patrick Marleau and the hall of fame

[kingsholygrail]

People point out the medals, but getting gold on Team Canada isn't exactly an incredible accomplishment. Maybe if he had MVP with one of those medals.

 

[bobermay]

Except EN goals can be a game winner as can an early goal in what ended up being a blowout. Game winners are great when they're in OT, or late in a tie game, but they're often no more influential on a game than many other goals. You score the 4th goal in a 5-3 game when your team at the time was up 3-0, and went up 5-0 before coasting to the win, giving up the other 3 in garbage time, and it really don't that special. Perhaps these end up balancing put over time, but without combing through game scores, it's hard to take them as overly relevant at face value with no context.

Bolded is key. Marleau either has horshoes up his ass, or he's scored clutch goals. Witch one are you suggesting?

Will you at least agree that the average GWG is more important that the average goal?

 

[bobermay]

I doubt he'll ever reach 640 goals.

Different era.

 

[Benedict Kovalchuk]

No way he should even sniff it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Are you suggestiong that top 10 finishes is significant? Really? Why top 10? What does it matter? Its not the elite offensive output that is most impressive about Marleau... its the consistency.

Also, Marleau is likely going to finish his career with close to 600G and around 1200P (Big difference that 500G and 1000P)

For someone with so many points and goals? Absolutely, why wouldn't top 10 finishes be significant? Being top 10 in a main statistic further shows just how good one can be...Marleau has some good goal scoring years, but nothing significant. In fact, out of is entire 20 year career, he has arguably 2-3 years where his production was actually significant....what does that say?

What? Its not about being elite but consistent? Ok....well Kris Draper played for nearly 20 years, And actually has 4 stanley cups and a Selke to his resume, shouldn't he be a HOFer?....

What's the point of valuing consistency if its not at somewhat of a high level? That opens up all kinds of doors for non elite players to be HOF worthy, simply because they were healthy enough to stick around.

Your being awfully generous with his numbers, he is 38 years old and will only slow down more. You really expect him to score 80+ more goals? Because you are aware if he does reach 600 goals and 1200 points, it will be multiple years of compiling, right? You think that is still HOF worth?

 

[glovesave_35]

He's going to end up being:
Top 10 in GP (Possibly top 5)
Top 7 in GWG (Possibly top 4)
Top 30 in G
Top 75 in A
Top 50 in P
Top 10 in Playoff GWG (Possibly Top 5)
Top 25 in Playoff GP
Top 50 in Playoff Points
TWO Olympic Medals...

What more does a man have to do to be acknowledged for an incredible career?

Man I don't know, but to me listing things like top 75 something is stretching the bounds of the argument.

I think he stands a decent chance of getting in but I would put him just short.

 

[glovesave_35]

Your being awfully generous with his numbers, he is 38 years old and will only slow down more. You really expect him to score 80+ more goals? Because you are aware if he does reach 600 goals and 1200 points, it will be multiple years of compiling, right? You think that is still HOF worth?

I am in the Marleau HOF opposition camp, but when it comes to "compilers" I think there can be a point where the numbers become relevant. For me, 600 goals in this era is nothing to scoff at. 500 doesn't do it for me though.

 

[Dustin]

A very quick search would have displayed several Marleau and HHOF threads already. This should be added to an already existing thread.

As has already been stated by many, I think Marleau's #'s are borderline as it is but if he can continue to produce for the next 3 years and break into the top 30 to 20 goal scorers of all time I can't see why he wouldn't be inducted. Compiler or not when you start to hit those kinds of numbers you separate yourself enough to be considered for the Hall.

 

[Dustin]

GWG is such a bogus stat - how many goals did he score that truely won the game?

It’s tough to consider him an all time great with 0 personal hardware, 0 top 10s and no Stanley cups. I hate that players are starting to get in on longevity alone. Was he ever even a top 10 player in the league?

I think at some point longevity becomes an argument for certain players though. It's not like Marleau is 37 and putting up 25 point seasons. The very fact that he can still play in what is essentially one of the hardest eras for Veterans to hang around in speak some volume. Especially considering he is still putting up respectable numbers. If Marleau's retires close to 600 goals I don't see why you would penalize him for playing the game longer than most.

 

[Regal]

Scoring 500+ goals in this era is impressive unto itself but I'm biased of course. Anybody drafted from Marleau's class give or take a year or two on who pots 500 probably should go in the Hall.

Well I wasn't really trying to debate the merits of his case so much as the relevance of GWGs. I tend to value prime more than longevity, but I can understand the case for Marleau even if I wouldn't personally put him in if given the option. I do think some can be too critical of the idea of compiling totals. As much as it takes a special player to be one of the very best at their peak, I think it's also special to be able to stay relevant and be able to change your game to still be a good player as you age and the game changes. I wouldn't complain if he ended up making it, though I'm not much for a super strict Hall anyway

 

[Regal]

He is very similar to Steve Larmer but in a lower scoring era. Larmer was a 2 time all star and Marleau 3 times. But he has also now played almost 500 more games than Larmer. It really depends on how his longevity is rewarded. If he gets close to 600 goals he probably gets in.

That's a really good comparison actually

 

[GreatGonzo]

I am in the Marleau HOF opposition camp, but when it comes to "compilers" I think there can be a point where the numbers become relevant. For me, 600 goals in this era is nothing to scoff at. 500 doesn't do it for me though.

If Marleau played long enough to reach 600 goals, it would be years of compiling at that point of his career. He would be in his 40s, and his production would be nothing close to anything significant.

 

[Alwalys]

He's in.

 

[Mattb124]

Except EN goals can be a game winner...

How many times have you seen a team pull its goalie when tied? About as many as hockey games you have watched I would guess.

 

[blundluntman]

No way he should. He belongs in the Hall of Very Good though

 

[Regal]

How many times have you seen a team pull its goalie when tied? About as many as hockey games you have watched I would guess.

They don't. But they do pull the goalie when down by one, and after giving up an EN goal, sometimes manage to score themselves to pull within one before falling short. Perhaps if you watched more games you might have seen it.

 

[glovesave_35]

If Marleau played long enough to reach 600 goals, it would be years of compiling at that point of his career. He would be in his 40s, and his production would be nothing close to anything significant.

I get what you're saying, I just disagree that it's irrelevant or insignificant. Btw, I didn't say it should be automatic. I don't think he has a strong case. I don't think he'll get to 600, making it a moot point anyways. His isn't a resume I think is Hall worthy. He was never one of the best players in the game. He never played a big part in a Stanley Cup. I am really unmoved by arguments for Olympic gold medals by less than core members of Team Canada.

Great guy. Very good career. Not HOF worthy IMO but I realize that the tide has swayed a little recently.

 

[DopeyFish]

Mats Sundin got in on being consistent and with his international stuff.

Don't see why the same can't apply to marleau.

tho sundin was a bit better in the scoring department and i think a hair more international success... it's still a tough call.

 

[Regal]

Bolded is key. Marleau either has horshoes up his ass, or he's scored clutch goals. Witch one are you suggesting?

Will you at least agree that the average GWG is more important that the average goal?

Sure, I just don't think it's a stat that's overly important or something that's more than a nice feather in his cap in terms of historical impact

 

[Alwalys]

They don't. But they do pull the goalie when down by one, and after giving up an EN goal, sometimes manage to score themselves to pull within one before falling short. Perhaps if you watched more games you might have seen it.

which means the player is trusted in critial goal-down situations facing an extra attacker. nothing wrong with ENGs, even getting the opportunity tends to select for great players.

 

[Regal]

which means the player is trusted in critial goal-down situations facing an extra attacker. nothing wrong with ENGs, even getting the opportunity tends to select for great players.

It was in response to the original poster who suggested GWG were better than ENG. Just pointing out they can be the same thing. Regardless I think that's getting a bit much. Any good player who isn't a complete liability is going to get EN opportunities, and Marleau being a very good defensive player is already part of his case.

 

[Alwalys]

It was in response to the original poster who suggested GWG were better than ENG. Just pointing out they can be the same thing.

A very, very tiny subset of them, which proves nothing.

Any good player who isn't a complete liability is going to get EN opportunities

uh, no. the best possession players on the team tend to be the go-to players in that situation.

 

[Alwalys]

People point out the medals, but getting gold on Team Canada isn't exactly an incredible accomplishment. Maybe if he had MVP with one of those medals.

then again, MAKING team canada is a huge accomplishment.

 

[mouser]

I get what you're saying, I just disagree that it's irrelevant or insignificant. Btw, I didn't say it should be automatic. I don't think he has a strong case. I don't think he'll get to 600, making it a moot point anyways. His isn't a resume I think is Hall worthy. He was never one of the best players in the game. He never played a big part in a Stanley Cup. I am really unmoved by arguments for Olympic gold medals by less than core members of Team Canada.

Great guy. Very good career. Not HOF worthy IMO but I realize that the tide has swayed a little recently.

Part and parcel of signing with the Leafs.

 

[Regal]

A very, very tiny subset of them, which proves nothing.



uh, no. the best possession players on the team tend to be the go-to players in that situation.

Depends how long we're talking here really. Pull it with over 2 minutes left and they'll cycle through a lot of players. It'd also say PK players more than possession players typically get the call.

This is far too much analysis of a very minor part of a comment though