Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front

[TheLegend]

My apologies.


The "Prospects" of forking over UP to 500 million dollars over the next 25 years- my apologies for using the word "fact" that isn't a fact yet

Actually after thinking about last night and this morning..... you're statement would be correct if it were applied to Glendale's existing bond debt on sports facilities.

 

[cbcwpg]

You know what would be funny is if MH buys the 125M in bonds! Collects a high interest rate, then they use his own money, give it back to him to buy the Coyotes!

This would be funny, except it can't happen. Hulsizer doesn't have the money to buy the Coyotes in the first place, so we know he doesn't have the money to buy any of the bonds.

 

[Fugu]

It takes two to negotiate. In 2008 when Moyes came to the City asking for help Beasley told him (according to court docs) he thought he could get him $15M - $20M of help per year. Moyes didn't follow up on that offer, he walked away.

Therefore, I guess the COG wish that Moyes negotiated.

Didn't they put some demands to see financial records on Moyes which caused him to walk?

Guess all you want. It's irrelevant when the side seeking help doesn't want to come to the table and talk, whatever the reason.

The figure that Moyes was told is in that range. At the time though, I think everyone said the team could make plenty of money if it had been managed better and Moyes hadn't spent as much money on charters and other frills to line his Swift pocket. I always asked if he made so much money off of fleecing the Yotes side of the equation, why would he ever stop.

$14m comes to mind as what he was told by Beasley. In fact, he may have gotten wind of what Reinsdorf was offered (more than what Moyes got) which led to the bankruptcy case.

Will Hulsizer have to produce personal financial documents to prove to Glendale that he won't make money off the Yotes?


This quibbling is pointless though. Can everyone agree that it wasn't just because Moyes was incompetent that there were losses? All the superbly competent would-be-owners have asked for and may receive sums that would make Moyes fall over in shock. What does THAT tell us?

 

[TheLegend]

The answer for Westgate might start with a "C", and it's not Coyotes. The rest of the letters are a,s,i,n and o.

Would the casino they have been discussing be located anywhere near Westgate? Or a better question, if not, could it?

The proposed indian casino in question is one mile north of Westgate.

There are no gaurantees Glendale could ever profit from it. Particularly when the tribe proposing it is based 150 miles away in Tuscon. But that's another topic for another board.

 

[Fugu]

This would be funny, except it can't happen. Hulsizer doesn't have the money to buy the Coyotes in the first place, so we know he doesn't have the money to buy any of the bonds.

I don't know that we know what his net worth is, but we do know he's not willing to risk his own money, and certainly not to the extent that would need to be put forward to not only buy the team, but keep it running.

 

[TheLegend]

The figure that Moyes was told is in that range. At the time though, I think everyone said the team could make plenty of money if it had been managed better and Moyes hadn't spent as much money on charters and other frills to line his Swift pocket. I always asked if he made so much money off of fleecing the Yotes side of the equation, why would he ever stop.

You can only fleece a sheep so many times before it becomes obvious.

$14m comes to mind as what he was told by Beasley. In fact, he may have gotten wind of what Reinsdorf was offered (more than what Moyes got) which led to the bankruptcy case.

Emails within court documents showed Rodier was keeping Moyes attorney informed as to what was cooking. Then explained how he could commit to one last fleece job and walk away untouched.

Will Hulsizer have to produce personal financial documents to prove to Glendale that he won't make money off the Yotes?

Not sure what you're getting at. You referring to the termination clauses in the new lease?

This quibbling is pointless though. Can everyone agree that it wasn't just because Moyes was incompetent that there were losses? All the superbly competent would-be-owners have asked for and may receive sums that would make Moyes fall over in shock. What does THAT tell us?

It was Moyes' team. He put the people in place to run it and did nothing to fix it. People on this board have vilified other past owners for less. Why should Moyes get a pass?

btw... Moyes just got more than $800M in an IPO for Swift. Be interesting to see what he does with that.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

This would be funny, except it can't happen. Hulsizer doesn't have the money to buy the Coyotes in the first place, so we know he doesn't have the money to buy any of the bonds.

If anything, it's more likely that he'd short the city's G.O. bonds.

 

[Whileee]

I ran across this interesting historic news item related to parking cited on another discussion board (http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/60145).

The audacity of the City of Glendale actually generating parking revenue from their arena without first paying Ellman tens of millions of dollars up front to purchase the rights.

Attending an NHL game after the Coyotes move to the city of Glendale "could cost a party of four as much as" $16 just for parking, as Glendale officials plan "to impose a parking surcharge of up to $4 on each ticket, rather than a flat per-car fee," according to Dennis Godfrey of the ARIZONA REPUBLIC. Under the deal being negotiated with Coyotes Majority Owner Steve Ellman, Glendale "would get all the parking revenue." Godfrey writes that the city "needs the money and more to pay off $180[M] it is putting up to build" the arena. Assistant City Manager Ed Beasley said that with a ticket surcharge, "open parking at the arena would mean no cars in lines waiting to pay [for parking]. The city would not have to hire a parking force. And people coming to the mall-like center, planned for the 225-acre development, would have free access."

 

[Killion]

Why should Moyes get a pass?

Because he somehow manages to look sincere at all times. Even in seersucker. But seriously, he must be absolutely Gobsmacked to see whats transpired. Its a wonder no one from the media hasnt asked him for his thoughts, though he's likely under a self-imposed gag-order upon his attorneys' instructions.

 

[Fugu]

You can only fleece a sheep so many times before it becomes obvious.

I think you're being intentionally argumentative. There wasn't enough money then and there isn't enough now.

What other possible motivation would there be for a city to take on hundreds of millions in additional debt? Low lying fruit is easily picked off.

Emails within court documents showed Rodier was keeping Moyes attorney informed as to what was cooking. Then explained how he could commit to one last fleece job and walk away untouched.

This has nothing to do with what Beasley said could be offered and what COG worked out with JR.

These two figures are not the same. In fact, it seems MH has an even better deal than JR.

Why?

Not sure what you're getting at. You referring to the termination clauses in the new lease?

I'm getting at how Glendale has come to realize there's not enough money here, and either they let the team leave or they pay someone to keep it there. Their standards appear to have changed.

It was Moyes' team. He put the people in place to run it and did nothing to fix it. People on this board have vilified other past owners for less. Why should Moyes get a pass?

btw... Moyes just got more than $800M in an IPO for Swift. Be interesting to see what he does with that.

Sure, Hulsizer can put in his superior team and be a better manager. If he's so much smarter and better, why does he need COG to foot the entire bill? Moyes gave up after getting practically nothing--- other than that massive payment for travel costs to himself. I'm sure he's still laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[cbcwpg]

I don't know that we know what his net worth is, but we do know he's not willing to risk his own money, and certainly not to the extent that would need to be put forward to not only buy the team, but keep it running.

Sorry, you are correct. It has never been proven what he is really worth. That impression comes from how little of his own money he is willing to spend on the team. He could be a multi-billionaire, but why spend your own money, when you can spend someone elses.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

btw... Moyes just got more than $800M in an IPO for Swift. Be interesting to see what he does with that.

Gets CoG to give him a deal like they did MH and repurchase the Yotes from the NHL??

 

[MaskedSonja]

Gets CoG to give him a deal like they did MH and repurchase the Yotes from the NHL??

Don't know if you need that sarcasm smiley-who knows what twist happens next!

 

[TheLegend]

I think you're being intentionally argumentative. There wasn't enough money then and there isn't enough now.

What other possible motivation would there be for a city to take on hundreds of millions in additional debt? Low lying fruit is easily picked off.

Not being argumentive. Moyes leveraged the team to get money for other projects. He certainly didn't put it back into the team.

This has nothing to do with what Beasley said could be offered and what COG worked out with JR.

These two figures are not the same. In fact, it seems MH has an even better deal than JR.

Why?

Because your comparing the situation in 2009 to the situation now. Plus... there is no way of knowing what the CoG and Moyes could have worked out because it never got past Moyes' refusal to show why he needed the help.

I'm getting at how Glendale has come to realize there's not enough money here, and either they let the team leave or they pay someone to keep it there. Their standards appear to have changed.

Their "standard" has been to keep the team in Glendale. The costs of achieving that goal have been inflated because of the BK and drawn out sale. But it's the standard they choose to adhere to.

Sure, Hulsizer can put in his superior team and be a better manager. If he's so much smarter and better, why does he need COG to foot the entire bill? Moyes gave up after getting practically nothing--- other than that massive payment for travel costs to himself. I'm sure he's still laughing all the way to the bank.

That's a question to ask Hulsizer. Nobody seems to know just what he's truly worth yet. I did have the thought that if he were to pay the full price himself it would leave him with little funds to put into marketing and team personnel (nee higher-priced talent). It'd be like paying full cash for a Lexus and then not having any money left over for gas (or the whole refinery in this case ).

Moyes got a lot more out of it than paying himself for sky-limo service.

 

[wlecoyote]

Originally Posted by OthmarAmmann View Post
Sure, size isn't everything. Compare the firms though...

Walker:

http://www.walkerparking.com/firm/

Firm is devoted to parking consultation with 45 years experience. Completed 8,000 parking projects. Largest parking consulting firm in the United States.

TLHocking:

http://www.tlhocking.com/ourapproach.php

Firm specialized in municipal finance and capital markets. Founded in 2001 by an investment banker. A google search of their website for the word "parking" returns one result


Beyond that in both cases they use reported attendance rather than turnstile counts. (i.e. tickets sold vs people who showed up).

Look at this

http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/6/3/897211/the-coyotes-attendance-figures

 

[AllByDesign]

That's a question to ask Hulsizer. Nobody seems to know just what he's truly worth yet. I did have the thought that if he were to pay the full price himself it would leave him with little funds to put into marketing and team personnel (nee higher-priced talent). It'd be like paying full cash for a Lexus and then not having any money left over for gas (or the whole refinery in this case ).

So... uhm... no one is sure of his wealth, but your analogy makes it appear as if you believe he isn't worth more than a couple hundred million. Sorry for being picky.

 

[ps241]

Look at this

http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/6/3/897211/the-coyotes-attendance-figures

very nice find.....you don't post much but pack a punch when you do

it appears the variance on the actual turnstile counts creates a downward pressure of about 18% on the attendance numbers or in the range of 2700 fans a game......that would definitely dent the financial model significantly

 

[blues10]

I find the TL Hocking website very interesting. On the left side is a scrolling bar of information on the bond market with some very interesting articles that are linked from other websites. I read a great one on the municipal bond problems and General Obligation bonds and General Revenue bonds. I don't think this group knows much about parking. It would be like hiring a plumber to do an electrical job. No offense to any plumbers out there who can also do electrical work. http://www.tlhocking.com/

The most interesting part of the website was down at the bottom where there is an Arizona Bond Sale calendar. I assume the bond offering would be here when/if it is listed.

 

[ps241]

I am not sure if i am the only one who is wondering but I will be curious to see the composition and break down of the Hulsizer ownership group?

the explanation might be as simple as he co-opted elements of the IEH consortium but since he was putting up the large cash he decided to take the lead position.....I might be wrong since the deal has morphed allot since IEH was running the show but it is one explanation that might make some sense

after all they only need about $65 million to get the keys to the joint and they have a really nice buffer for their operating losses for 5 years so if you have faith in the upside on this play and have real wealth this one doesn't seem like it needs a boat load of investors (easy for me to say)......i wonder if the BOG have any issues with the gang of 8 given the 5 year pie fight they have been dealing with in Atlanta with the Spirit?

perhaps Matt is just wisely hedging his bets and using OPM to keep his potential downside minimized

 

[crazycanuck900]

There is one thing Matt has the Jim doesn't have. An opportunity to be an NHL owner.

Does he really thou? I guess we will find out shortly.

 

[Jeffrey93]

I am not sure if i am the only one who is wondering but I will be curious to see the composition and break down of the Hulsizer ownership group?

the explanation might be as simple as he co-opted elements of the IEH consortium but since he was putting up the large cash he decided to take the lead position.....I might be wrong since the deal has morphed allot since IEH was running the show but it is one explanation that might make some sense

after all they only need about $65 million to get the keys to the joint and they have a really nice buffer for their operating losses for 5 years so if you have faith in the upside on this play and have real wealth this one doesn't seem like it needs a boat load of investors (easy for me to say)......i wonder if the BOG have any issues with the gang of 8 given the 5 year pie fight they have been dealing with in Atlanta with the Spirit?

perhaps Matt is just wisely hedging his bets and using OPM to keep his potential downside minimized

I didn't think anyone was putting up any 'large cash'....seemed to me like Glendale was paying this guy to take Ownership of the franchise.

Pretty close to being a City of Glendale employee really.....

 

[RR]

Back then the COG probably told him straight out" are you kidding" but thought other buyers would come(with there own money... NOT gifted money) that they will have to give M.H. More than the buying price i might add!

As I said, guess all you want. It's irrelevant when the side seeking help doesn't want to come to the table and talk, whatever the reason.

 

[RR]

The answer for Westgate might start with a "C", and it's not Coyotes. The rest of the letters are a,s,i,n and o.

Would the casino they have been discussing be located anywhere near Westgate? Or a better question, if not, could it?

It would be. As it would be close to Camelback Ranch. The City is opposed to it as of now. Local businesses are opposed to it as of now. Westgate in particular is opposed to it. The fear is it will draw business away from those that collect and pay city taxes. The Tribe is not required to pay local, state or federal taxes.

Frankly, long-term, I don't see it doing anything more than driving more people to Glendale and Glendale businesses. Perhaps there's a short-term negative benefit when it's all new and shiny, but long-term I think it would be huge as it would be the first casino in the greater Phoenix area that would be smack in the middle of a huge population demographic.

Does anyone know what really happened? I've seen it suggested in multiple places that Beasley (and the CoG) didn't really go out of their way to help Moyes. This is the only link I could find though.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2009-08-06/news/glendale-the-coyotes-and-the-john-kaites-connection/

The offer of help from Glendale is documented as part of the court record, just as the Mirtle chart that is part of this round of the discussion is. Pick your poison. Choose what you want to believe. But as far as the BK is concerned, both positions (claims) are part of the record. You can search the BMC site for the specific documents, or go back to threads starting at ~Part V.

 

[mouser]

btw... Moyes just got more than $800M in an IPO for Swift. Be interesting to see what he does with that.

Pay off some of his debts and still be behind. He co-founded Swift back in the 1960's, grew it into a huge company as CEO, went public in 1990, eventually had disputes with the company Board and personal SEC violations leading to his being booted from the company he founded in 2005.

In 2007 he executed a leveraged buyout of Swift to take them private. At the time he controlled 26% of Swift's shares--many of them in a trust fund for his children which has led to some inter-family lawsuit filings. The buyout valued Swift at $2.37B, so Moyes paid $1.75B for the other 74% of the public shares, reportedly all financed via debt.

Now three years after taking Swift from public to private, Moyes is taking them public again after the private company sustained continued losses. The IPO appears to have sold off 57.5% of the company for $806M, valuing Swift at $1.4B. Not only is that below the $1.75B Moyes took on in 2007, but he also contributed the public shares of Swift in taking them private. When he first launched his takeover attempts the 26% of public shares he controlled were valued at over $500M.

There's no way to paint the whole Swift privatization and recent IPO as anything other than a financial catastrophe for Moyes.

 

[TheLegend]

So... uhm... no one is sure of his wealth, but your analogy makes it appear as if you believe he isn't worth more than a couple hundred million. Sorry for being picky.

Not at all ABD.... it's a valid point.

It's possible to be worth millions, or even billions for that matter. But if it isn't liquid, your options are somewhat limited.

That's what makes it so difficult. Other than Peak6... nobody really knows just where this guy's wealth lies.

I'm going on a presumption that, although he's worth hundreds of millions, he doesn't have enough liquidity on hand to buy the Yotes and then pour even more into it right away to rebuild it.