Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front

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aj8000

Registered User
Jun 5, 2010
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Do I care if Atlanta coughs up a billion dollars to keep the Thrashers? No, no, that don't confront me. Oh, but I don't live in Atlanta, so that opinion can be discounted? But if I'm against it, hey I'm standing up for the poor little guy of ATL, so that opinion is valid? Bullpuck-y.

Ich bin Glendaler. Ich bin Arizonan. So those from elsewhere who pretend to care so much about an Arizona municipality issuing bonds to fund the retention of the Coyotes here - you don't approve? Then don't buy the bonds when they come up for sale. That'll show 'em.

I think you are missing the point. If you do not live and pay taxes in Glendale then your point must be discounted whether you are for or against the idea of the Yotes staying.

In the end I do not care if they stay since life will go on; however, I have looked at the numbers and it is a bad deal for Glendale. Do I care for the poor taxpayers in Glendale, no I do not since they will pay for it not me.

Glendale should have negotiated with Moyes and they would have saved themselves a lot of money.

I am glad you are proud to be from Arizona; however, do not try to pretend that this is good for Glendale if you do not live there.
 

crazycanuck900

Registered User
Dec 11, 2010
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Gods country
This deal makes Glendale look like a joke, the NHL look like Sesame Street, and Matt hulziser like is Leader of the circus!
 
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Fidel Astro

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Aug 26, 2010
1,362
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Winnipeg, MB
www.witchpolice.com
Do you think the people of Glendale realize that in order to make this crazy plan even remotely work, they're going to have to start attending hockey games on a regular basis?

All of this parking nonsense isn't going to mean **** if it turns out that the Coyotes are going to continue drawing such godawful attendance. What good is a parking lot if no one's using it?
 

Fugu

Guest
Sure, size isn't everything. Compare the firms though...

Walker:

http://www.walkerparking.com/firm/

Firm is devoted to parking consultation with 45 years experience. Completed 8,000 parking projects. Largest parking consulting firm in the United States.

TLHocking:

http://www.tlhocking.com/ourapproach.php

Firm specialized in municipal finance and capital markets. Founded in 2001 by an investment banker. A google search of their website for the word "parking" returns one result.

It was very sloppy. To use reported attendance as the basis for a projection that defends a bond issue of $125m is beyond amateur. I know I can't claim it to be intentionally misleading or intentionally deceptive, etc., but I can criticize it for failing to check the figures used that are the cornerstone for the entire projection!
 

PitbulI

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
415
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But Glendale announces 15,000 fans. The NHL announces 15,000 fans.

I'm guessing that when they show a picture of the fans in the arena, perhaps there's a big event going on in the concorse, or a fire alarm, or.....

Nope, Put a 30 million dollar loss a year combined with what I see on the TV, I think I come to the conclusion that they have far less than 15,000 fans a game.

So, take 9,000 a game, how many have vehicles? How many take their vehicles? How many will go from free to whatever they're charging. Also, what about other businesses in the area that could be offering parking for a much lower price?
 

cbcwpg

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May 18, 2010
20,100
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Attendance has always been a questionable number that people and firms tend to use. The problem is that there is tickets distributed VS actual tickets used and as the BK showed the hockey world... attendance in PHX was never as high as they were telling everyone over the years.

So if I am a firm hired to do projections about parking and having to base that on projected attendance, should I do a proper job and base my numbers on historical attendance ( not including the last 2 years to be fair ) to get accurate numbers, or should I base my parking projection numbers on pie in the sky attendance that the mayors' office tells me to use so she gets the numbers she wants? Just asking.
 

crazycanuck900

Registered User
Dec 11, 2010
110
0
Gods country
But Glendale announces 15,000 fans. The NHL announces 15,000 fans.

I'm guessing that when they show a picture of the fans in the arena, perhaps there's a big event going on in the concorse, or a fire alarm, or.....

Nope, Put a 30 million dollar loss a year combined with what I see on the TV, I think I come to the conclusion that they have far less than 15,000 fans a game.

So, take 9,000 a game, how many have vehicles? How many take their vehicles? How many will go from free to whatever they're charging. Also, what about other businesses in the area that could be offering parking for a much lower price?

Does anyone have any pics of the parking lots? Does the parking lots fill up? We see pics of the game and i hardly doubt the parking lots are full!
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,061
33,043
It was very sloppy. To use reported attendance as the basis for a projection that defends a bond issue of $125m is beyond amateur. I know I can't claim it to be intentionally misleading or intentionally deceptive, etc., but I can criticize it for failing to check the figures used that are the cornerstone for the entire projection!

The positive to all of this is that I think we now know have some insight into what was going on behind closed doors in the negotiations between Hulsizer and Glendale. Here is "myth" about this ---Reader's Digest version.

Hulsizer: "I will consider purchasing the Coyotes and signing a long-term lease at the Jobing.com, but I am going to require substantial subsidies for both the purchase of the team and to offset operating costs. Think about the Reinsdorf MOU as a starting point."

Glendale: "What? We've already determined that there is no way that a CFD could..."

Hulsizer: "Did you hear me mention anything about a CFD? I am expecting Glendale to provide this directly."

Glendale: "Gulp!"

Hulsizer: "I've come up with some innovative ideas about how you can do this and avoid the gift law. To cover operating losses you could pay me a nice 'arena management fee'. To help me with the purchase of the Coyotes, I could sell you the rights to parking revenues at the Jobing.com for the next 30 years."

Glendale: "Hmmmm... the arena management fee seems like a reasonable idea, but do you actually own the parking rights? Couldn't we just give you rights to future parking revenues generated at the Jobing.com?"

Hulsizer (grinning broadly): "Why would I want to take a chance on what happens to the parking situation around the Jobing.com over the next 30 years? For all I know, there might be all sorts of new developments and transportation options that will make it more difficult to generate revenue in the next few decades. No thanks. I want the money up front".

Glendale: "Well, this is a new idea. We'll need to think about it."

Bettman: "You have until tomorrow (the 15th) to agree 'in principle'. We're preparing our operating loss statement for the withdrawal from the escrow account, but might reconsider if we see 'real progress' by tomorrow".

Glendale: "Gulp... okay, we can agree 'in principle', but we'll need to crunch the numbers to see what we can do."

Hulsizer and Bettman: "Take your time. You have until the 15th, next month to come up with the financial plans. In the meantime, we'll alert the media that we have reached a 'conceptual verbal agreement'".

Glendale: "Ummmm, what's that?"

Hulsizer and Bettman: "It doesn't matter, but it'll keep folks thinking positive thoughts."

A month later....

Glendale: "Well, we've crunched the numbers and determined that the arena management fee could maybe go as high as $2-3 million per year."

Hulsizer: "Well, I think you'll have to recheck your analysis and come up with something better."

Glendale: "Gulp... what did you have in mine."

Hulsizer (pulls out a tattered newspaper article from his suit pocket): "Well, according to Mayor Scruggs, it would cost the city $18 million per year to run the Jobing.com. So, let's start there for the next several years."

Glendale: "What?!?!?!? Are you joking? How could we ever justify that?"

Bettman (on his cell phone): "Just a minute Mayor Scruggs, I have TNSE on the other line..."

Glendale: "Okay, I guess we'll have to find a way to 'sell' the $18 million arena management fees. On the parking, we've had a very experienced and reputable firm assess the future revenues of parking. The net present value is in the $30-50 range. That seems high for us, and we're still not sure why we need to purchase this from you, but we might be able to justify it."

Hulsizer (grinning broadly): "I was thinking about something in the neighbourhood of $100 million."

Glendale (turning pale): "What??? But, but, but... our consultant's assessment values the parking at much less."

Hulsizer: "Find another consultant. And remember, whoever you hire, the answer is $100 million."

Glendale: "I'm not sure we can do that..."

Bettman (with a cross look on his face): "Look, you have until mid-December. Otherwise, it's 'Adios Coyotes'". Am I clear?"

Glendale (despondently): "Perfectly."

Bettman (grinning broadly): "Great. We'll announce that things are progressing well and a new deal is imminent. Bill, have you got the number of those Atlanta Spirit guys. I am getting really ticked off at them whining about no new investors, and I want to give them a piece of my mind about the low attendance figures there."
 

cbcwpg

Registered User
May 18, 2010
20,100
20,376
Between the Pipes
How many will go from free to whatever they're charging.?

That's the $100M question, and not the NHL, not the CoG, and not Hulsizer know the answer to. Until you start asking people that have been parking for free forever, to start paying to park, nobody can honestly say if that will keep people from attending games. That and the higher ticket prices that the team will have to start charging to bring them more in line with the NHL average.
 

crazycanuck900

Registered User
Dec 11, 2010
110
0
Gods country
That's the $100M question, and not the NHL, not the CoG, and not Hulsizer know the answer to. Until you start asking people that have been parking for free forever, to start paying to park, nobody can honestly say if that will keep people from attending games. That and the higher ticket prices that the team will have to start charging to bring them more in line with the NHL average.

Its gonna cost the fans $27 per game.... $20 for parking + $7 for ticket = $27 per game. sounds like a deal to me!
 

Kebekoi

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Oct 3, 2006
1,499
0
Matane, QC
The positive to all of this is that I think we now know have some insight into what was going on behind closed doors in the negotiations between Hulsizer and Glendale. Here is "myth" about this ---Reader's Digest version.

[...]

Nice story! If any of that could be true right? :sarcasm:
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
Some discussion about the 60 Minutes piece.

Absolutely no question about it. Glendale is tacking right into the teeth of a Force9. Lashed to the wheel. The longer they wait in floating this one last beacon of hope the worse its gonna get. They have simply got to transfer the funds from wherever, however through Hulsizer to the league immediately & deal with the bond issuance thereafter, appropriately & reasonably. The longer they refrain from doing so the worse the storm gets. They have got to strike now.
 

PitbulI

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
415
44
These boards are for hockey fans everywhere but one thing I have noticed is the lack of Coyotes supporters/fans on this site.

Is there a Coyotes forum somewhere? I wouldn't mind seeing what they're talking about as fans.

But no matter what, these numbers are dream numbers. I wouldn't mind talking face to face with the board members, asking them real questions that should have been asked.

One thing I would enjoy reading is if this deal failed, to read on exactly what lead to walking away. Who said what? At what point did the numbers look so crazy that only the craziest person/business would make this deal.
 

Einstein Theory

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
153
0
Attendance has always been a questionable number that people and firms tend to use. The problem is that there is tickets distributed VS actual tickets used and as the BK showed the hockey world... attendance in PHX was never as high as they were telling everyone over the years.

So if I am a firm hired to do projections about parking and having to base that on projected attendance, should I do a proper job and base my numbers on historical attendance ( not including the last 2 years to be fair ) to get accurate numbers, or should I base my parking projection numbers on pie in the sky attendance that the mayors' office tells me to use so she gets the numbers she wants? Just asking.

I thought this whole "announced attendance" versus "actual attendance" debate was answered during the Bankruptcy?

The cold hard facts for the Coyotes is that they have NEVER averaged over 12,068 in "actual" attendance, regardless of the "announced" attendance in 15 years of existance. In fact, actual attendance has been much much much worse in the last few years.

Here's a blast from the past for those requiring proof:

http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/6/3/897211/the-coyotes-attendance-figures

Anyone care to re-calculate NPV with these figures???
 
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RR

Registered User
Mar 8, 2009
8,821
64
Cave Creek, AZ
I think you are missing the point. If you do not live and pay taxes in Glendale then your point must be discounted whether you are for or against the idea of the Yotes staying.

In the end I do not care if they stay since life will go on; however, I have looked at the numbers and it is a bad deal for Glendale. Do I care for the poor taxpayers in Glendale, no I do not since they will pay for it not me.

Glendale should have negotiated with Moyes and they would have saved themselves a lot of money.

I am glad you are proud to be from Arizona; however, do not try to pretend that this is good for Glendale if you do not live there.

It takes two to negotiate. In 2008 when Moyes came to the City asking for help Beasley told him (according to court docs) he thought he could get him $15M - $20M of help per year. Moyes didn't follow up on that offer, he walked away.
 

aj8000

Registered User
Jun 5, 2010
1,256
35
It takes two to negotiate. In 2008 when Moyes came to the City asking for help Beasley told him (according to court docs) he thought he could get him $15M - $20M of help per year. Moyes didn't follow up on that offer, he walked away.

Therefore, I guess the COG wish that Moyes negotiated.

Didn't they put some demands to see financial records on Moyes which caused him to walk?
 

RR

Registered User
Mar 8, 2009
8,821
64
Cave Creek, AZ
Therefore, I guess the COG wish that Moyes negotiated.

Didn't they put some demands to see financial records on Moyes which caused him to walk?

Guess all you want. It's irrelevant when the side seeking help doesn't want to come to the table and talk, whatever the reason.
 

PitbulI

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
415
44
At the time, I'm thinking the COG thought the lease was unbreakable because bankruptsy perhaps didn't seem like an option that would happen.

I'm still upset when Scruggs made the comment about the arena tennants. If the Coyotes left, we'd shut the doors.

Ok, you made a mistake in building a new arena. You take a possibility of a loss on the arena and lose a few million a year while you pay it off.

Or,

You subsidize a team and lose hundreds of millions of dollars just to offset less than 200 million dollars.

I know, Westgate must flourish. But, are the Coyotes a reason why places stay in business or come to the area?
 

crazycanuck900

Registered User
Dec 11, 2010
110
0
Gods country
Guess all you want. It's irrelevant when the side seeking help doesn't want to come to the table and talk, whatever the reason.

Back then the COG probably told him straight out" are you kidding" but thought other buyers would come(with there own money... NOT gifted money) that they will have to give M.H. More than the buying price i might add!
 

Niagara67

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
270
0
Westgate must flourish. But, are the Coyotes a reason why places stay in business or come to the area?

The answer for Westgate might start with a "C", and it's not Coyotes. The rest of the letters are a,s,i,n and o.

Would the casino they have been discussing be located anywhere near Westgate? Or a better question, if not, could it?
 

81ragnaH

Registered User
May 29, 2007
2,898
11
Lynn, MA
I thought this whole "announced attendance" versus "actual attendance" debate was answered during the Bankruptcy?

The cold hard facts for the Coyotes is that they have NEVER averaged over 12,068 in "actual" attendance, regardless of the "announced" attendance in 15 years of existance. In fact, actual attendance has been much much much worse in the last few years.

Here's a blast from the past for those requiring proof:

http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/6/3/897211/the-coyotes-attendance-figures

Anyone care to re-calculate NPV with these figures???

this isn't completely accurate. the link you posted has the average of all the years from their first in AZ up to the lockout as 12K. that could mean they drew 16K for 4 years and 8K for 4 years, bringing the average to 12 over those 8 years. so saying they have never had above 12K a year isn't accurate, using just this source.

i'm not saying they did pull those numbers, just pointing out that the "cold hard facts" aren't quite as cold or hard as you suggest. they could be completely right. or, my example could be. your source doesn't prove either.
 

Potrzebie

Registered User
Mar 25, 2010
2,331
2,898
It takes two to negotiate. In 2008 when Moyes came to the City asking for help Beasley told him (according to court docs) he thought he could get him $15M - $20M of help per year. Moyes didn't follow up on that offer, he walked away.

Does anyone know what really happened? I've seen it suggested in multiple places that Beasley (and the CoG) didn't really go out of their way to help Moyes. This is the only link I could find though.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2009-08-06/news/glendale-the-coyotes-and-the-john-kaites-connection/
 
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