Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore (UPD #443ff 14-Dec agenda/lease links)

[He Lied to Mario]

Just for the record, Detroit fans are relocationists (former Victoria Cougars), Chicago fans (formerly Portland Rosebuds), even Toronto (Leafs franchise can arguably have their roots traced to Ambroise O'Brien's "Renfrew Millionaires" major pro NHA franchise). Hope that makes everyone feel warm & fuzzy now.

If you want to get technical the entire WHL was disbanded before Detroit got a franchise. Players were sold to the NHL after the league had folded. Detroit bought the rights to the players from Victoria because they were all available because there wasn't going to be a team in Victoria the following season. So technically Detroit didn't relocate the franchise because there was no franchise or league to relocate for that matter. They named the team the Cougars because so many of their players had played in Victoria.

 

[Whileee]

I was thinking about this in a similar vein, the sheer audacity of it. There's something distasteful about it from a purely PR perspective. In some way I feel that if this is the best the NHL can do, if this is what it takes to keep a team in a location, it's really not very assuring at all.

My sentiments, exactly. The NHL is still trying to win hearts and minds in much of the southern US, and deals like this are likely to create resentment among those who are not already avid fans. If the NHL was so keen on keeping the team in Glendale, and Hulsizer was so keen on becoming an NHL owner ("joining the club"), then why did neither of them put their money where their mouth is? This is hardly the climate for what will be seen in many quarters as a "corporate bailout" of the least important kind (for a professional sport) by a city held hostage by the league and prospective owner. There is no way that this will be seen as a "partnership" by most citizens. I think that once the flush of relief subsides, there will be long-term negative vibes about this deal, which won't help the NHL or the Coyotes win new "hearts and minds".

By the way, how soon do you think it will be before Coyotes fans are paying $20-30 for parking? It is hard to imagine Glendale holding off on implementing steep parking fees to start paying back their $100 debt.

 

[crazycanuck900]

Its going to funny to watch the Coyotes next week playing in front of 5000 fans in Glendale( or did they give away there city name to?), sure was a great investment Glendale! In 2 or 3 yrs i know where im going to pick up very cheap chunk of property for the winter months THANK YOU Hulsizerdale

 

[MAROONSRoad]

upon first reading i thought matty was nuts to sign this agreement because after 5 years he will be sitting there with no more money tree and 30% of the cost of attending every game will be going directly to glendale and not the team....that model seemed to be crippling.

then i reconsidered this paragraph in the above AZ central article.


- After 5 1/2 years, Glendale could sell the arena to Hulsizer for no more than $130 million. If he isn't interested, the city could sell the arena to another buyer or renegotiate payments to Hulsizer to continue to operate the arena. The Coyotes would remain at the arena, even if the arena were sold.


why on earth would he buy the arena?....this $17m a year payment from glendale will go on in perpetuity.....do they think that in 5 years they will be able to say, 'ok we all know the arena management is only worth $5m'?.....the renegotiated management fee will not go down....if they are pretending that it is a legitimate value right now, what argument will they be able to make in 5 years that it should decrease substantially?....glendale is currently selling the fact that the fee is totally reasonable, thereby eliminating any leverage they will have to step back from that in the future.

glendale is basically signing on to a minimum $17m annual payment for the next 23 years....makes the first $125m seem like pittance.

The sad fact is if this deal goes through, and I believe it will unless by some miracle COG has second thoughts or GWI somehow intervenes, it still does not assure the long-term future of the team in Glendale. 5 1/2 years is not a long time. What happens when the 17 million per season runs out? Why should we expect attendance to improve substantially with added parking costs? So many things can go wrong and anything short of becoming perennial SC finalist may not cut it. New ownership gets old fast without winning and the arena is not changing its location. A very poor hockey market for 15 years will not all of a sudden become a great hockey market. Etc., etc.

The last chapter of this story may not be written for a few more years. It may become even a more interesting story of poor decision making by a professional league and municipal government. A 1/2 billion dollar disaster.

GHOST

 

[ultra runner]

can you say epic failure?

 

[crazycanuck900]

The sad fact is if this deal goes through, and I believe it will unless by some miracle COG has second thoughts or GWI somehow intervenes, it still does not assure the long-term future of the team in Glendale. 5 1/2 years is not a long time. What happens when the 17 million per season runs out? Why should we expect attendance to improve substantially with added parking costs? So many things can go wrong and anything short of becoming perennial SC finalist may not cut it. New ownership gets old fast without winning and the arena is not changing its location. A very poor hockey market for 15 years will not all of a sudden become a great hockey market. Etc., etc.

The last chapter of this story may not be written for a few more years. It may become even a more interesting story of poor decision making by a professional league and municipal government. A 1/2 billion dollar disaster.

GHOST

I agree, attendance isn't gonna get any better, just worst

 

[MAROONSRoad]

I should add: I wonder how poor old Jerry Moyes feels tonight. This man gets a lot of flack from Coyotes fans, but the fact is he floated this franchise with his own cheque book for several years, losing 10s of millions of dollars in the process. He begged the COG to renegotiate the lease or to help him somehow make the team viable in Glendale. COG did nothing. He then looked all over for someone to buy the team off him. In the end, he ended up with nothing. He was poorly treated by the COG and the NHL. And now he has to watch as the COG hands a new owner from Chicago, a "Johnny come lately," $200 million in subsidies. He would have likely settled for far less.

GHOST

 

[crazycanuck900]

If the Coyotes attendance drops lower than it has, who sucks up the loss's? less fans = less parking?

 

[leafs4cup]

The sad fact is if this deal goes through, and I believe it will unless by some miracle COG has second thoughts or GWI somehow intervenes, it still does not assure the long-term future of the team in Glendale. 5 1/2 years is not a long time. What happens when the 17 million per season runs out? Why should we expect attendance to improve substantially with added parking costs? So many things can go wrong and anything short of becoming perennial SC finalist may not cut it. New ownership gets old fast without winning and the arena is not changing its location. A very poor hockey market for 15 years will not all of a sudden become a great hockey market. Etc., etc.

The last chapter of this story may not be written for a few more years. It may become even a more interesting story of poor decision making by a professional league and municipal government. A 1/2 billion dollar disaster.

GHOST

Lets not forget salaries and the cap are rising every year.

 

[AllByDesign]

I know this is getting OT-ish, so I have to give everyone else one free pass in the next half hour......

It's that damn cute Avatar... it'll be the end of you I say!

 

[MAROONSRoad]

A problem for any math wizards out there.

How much is the 250K city of Glendale paying for the privilege of having an NHL team? Here are the costs we know of:

-- 180 million towards building of hockey arena;
-- 100 million towards purchase of Coyotes from NHL; and
-- 97 million towards yearly losses, ur, arena management fees.

That's 377 million dollars.

Now, assuming this money is raised via bonds, what would be the total cost at a reasonable muni interest rate? And how much in parking fees, direct and indirect sales taxes, ticket surcharges, rent, etc. would be needed for the city to break even?

GHOST

 

[ultra runner]

Ghost you forgot the $25,000,000 they put up for the losses this year...$402,000,000

 

[TheLegend]

Ghost you forgot the $25,000,000 they put up for the losses this year...$402,000,000

That money remains in the escrow account..... untouched. So it's not in the equation yet.

 

[ps241]

upon first reading i thought matty was nuts to sign this agreement because after 5 years he will be sitting there with no more money tree and 30% of the cost of attending every game will be going directly to glendale and not the team....that model seemed to be crippling.

then i reconsidered this paragraph in the above AZ central article.


- After 5 1/2 years, Glendale could sell the arena to Hulsizer for no more than $130 million. If he isn't interested, the city could sell the arena to another buyer or renegotiate payments to Hulsizer to continue to operate the arena. The Coyotes would remain at the arena, even if the arena were sold.


why on earth would he buy the arena?....this $17m a year payment from glendale will go on in perpetuity.....do they think that in 5 years they will be able to say, 'ok we all know the arena management is only worth $5m'?.....the renegotiated management fee will not go down....if they are pretending that it is a legitimate value right now, what argument will they be able to make in 5 years that it should decrease substantially?....glendale is currently selling the fact that the fee is totally reasonable, thereby eliminating any leverage they will have to step back from that in the future.

glendale is basically signing on to a minimum $17m annual payment for the next 23 years....makes the first $125m seem like pittance.

Peter i think you raised an important point.....I believe the $17 million a year will be an on going fee that lasts well beyond the 5 1/2 years

now if that is how Glendale wants to roll I am not going to tell them how to spend their money. I don't live there so its not my taxes

 

[Veinless]

CoG should just buy the Coyotes themselves and sell the parking rights to someone else for $100M. That would make their cost $70M. So much cheaper in both short and long term.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Assuming COG approves the lease tomorrow night, what is the next step in this saga?

The BOG still hasn't approved Hulsizer as an owner, but apparently they can via fax at any time. What are the chances they do it before Christmas? And what would happen in the unlikely scenario that they reject him as an owner?

In addition, how soon can/would/should Goldwater make a challenge, assuming they even do? As per the WFP article, they're at least aware of the situation (even though they offered no comment).

Plus it's almost time for a new thread. Bring on the title suggestions.

 

[RAgIn]

That money remains in the escrow account..... untouched. So it's not in the equation yet.

Yet is key. By January-February, the escrow will likely be untapped. But in the end, I doubt Hulsizer will pay it. But maybe the NHL will say: don't worry, we'll take it out of our Timbits fund.

We'll see.

 

[RAgIn]

It should be interesting to see if any citizen's will stand up to the council tomorrow night and say this deal is shaddy, this deal is corrupt... this is bad for our city, and so on.

Someone has to step up, no?

But you can bet on one thing, that there will be plenty of people outside of Glendale praising the COG, the NHL and Hulsizer for this amazing lease on life. You can bet on it.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Assuming COG approves the lease tomorrow night, what is the next step in this saga?

The BOG still hasn't approved Hulsizer as an owner, but apparently they can via fax at any time. What are the chances they do it before Christmas? And what would happen in the unlikely scenario that they reject him as an owner?

In addition, how soon can/would/should Goldwater make a challenge, assuming they even do? As per the WFP article, they're at least aware of the situation (even though they offered no comment).

Plus it's almost time for a new thread. Bring on the title suggestions.

episode XVI return of the imminance

 

[Niagara67]

Bring on the title suggestions.

Scruggs' Plan B.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Some interesting tweets:

brahmresnik BrahmResnik
@ghosthoffa Yes vote highly likely, but I'm not sure it ends this saga.
2 hours ago

ghosthoffa Zachary Reynolds
@brahmresnik why would you still be skeptical?!
2 hours ago

brahmresnik BrahmResnik
@ghosthoffa Some significant loose ends in the lease. Approval still likely, but I wonder how quickly loose ends can be tied up.
2 hours ago

ghosthoffa Zachary Reynolds
@brahmresnik like?
2 hours ago

brahmresnik BrahmResnik
@ghosthoffa funding for $197 million payout
1 hour ago

Of course, I wouldn't think funding would be that much of an issue if you can use the tax payers $$ to ensure repayment of any bonds.

GHOST

 

[Whileee]

Plus it's almost time for a new thread. Bring on the title suggestions.

Keeping with the rock song / lyric theme...

"Won't Get Fooled Again." (The Who)
(key lyrics: "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss")

"Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum" (Dylan)
(Key lyrics: "Tweedle-dee Dee - he's on his hands and his knees / Saying, 'Throw me somethin', Mister, please.' / 'What's good for you is good for me,' / Says Tweedle-dee Dum to Tweedle-dee Dee")

"Crazy Mama" (the Stones)
(Key lyrics: "You can scandalize me / Scorn my name / You can steal my money /
And that don't mean a doggone thing")

"Plundered My Soul" (the Stones)
(Key lyrics: "You were the trick up my sleeve / My ace in the hole. I thought you wanted my money / But you plundered my soul.")

"Looking Out for Number One" (BTO)
(Key lyrics: "And you'll find out every trick in the book / That there's only one way to get things done / You'll find out the only way to the top / Is looking out for number one.")

Others...

"With a Little Help from My Friends" (Beatles)
"Knockin' on Heaven's Door" (Dylan)
"Don't Think Twice, It's Alright" (Dylan)
"The Promised Land" (Springsteen)
"Money for Nothing" (Dire Straits)
"Desperado" (Eagles)
"Title and Registration" (DCFC)
"The Verdict" (Joe Jackson)
"To the Dogs or Whoever" (Josh Ritter)
"Helpless" (Neil Young)
"Hallelujah" (Cohen)
"Dweller on the Threshold" (Van Morrison)

 

[kdb209]

Keeping with the rock song / lyric theme...

"Crazy Mama" (the Stones)
(Key lyrics: "You can scandalize me / Scorn my name / You can steal my money /
And that don't mean a doggone thing")

"Plundered My Soul" (the Stones)
(Key lyrics: "You were the trick up my sleeve / My ace in the hole. I thought you wanted my money / But you plundered my soul.")

Well, we're 4 threads short of our "XIXth Nervous Breakdown".

 

[OthmarAmmann]

I'll stick with my suggestion of "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?"



I'm doubtful that this deal will cause resentment among non-fans or hurt attendance. It's hardly been in the news. Generally people don't really care about civic politics, and then this is a deal being made by a city that represents less than 1/16th or the metro area. For the Winnipeggers, would you really care if Selkirk was going to give somebody a ridiculously sweet deal? Doubtful.

Similarly, I don't see attendance going anywhere but up. How quickly is another story of course.

 

[JetFan4Ever]

"Dazed and Confused" (Led Zeppelin) may be appropriate.