Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore (UPD #443ff 14-Dec agenda/lease links)

[Dado]

For the life of me, I don't understand why the relocationist care what the COG is paying.

WTF is a "relocationist"? Aren't all Coyote fans "relocationists" by definition?

To answer the meaningful part of your question - because this is the BUSINESS OF HOCKEY forum, and what people pay for stuff is always related to the business aspects.

Frick if it weren't for the math part I'd have this place licked.

Thanks for injecting some needed humor.

...is not something an outsider should really have a say in.

Then you should be happy, since we don't have a say in any of this, other than the very few here who actually live there.

All we have - and all we express here - are our opinions.

Are you suggesting we shouldn't be allowed to have those, either?


EDITED: A geez - sorry - will try and figure out this "multiquote" thing before posting again.

 

[Fugu]

It is not a "schtick" when you have over 20 reincarnations of this topic debating the relocation of the Coyotes for nearly two years. If the comment doesn't apply to you specifically, then don't feel the need to respond.

It's a schtick when it keeps getting used and liberally applied to anyone who disagrees with your POV.

There are 20 (or more) incarnations because this is the business board and team finances and ownership matters happen to be business issues. Shall we shut the business board down because some posters think the Yotes are fine where they are, while others don't agree?

Rhetorical question. It's not open to debate.

And don't tell me where I can respond.

It wasn't intended to be mean spirited, just point out the fact that the community has stepped up so let it go. But fundamentally, my comment was directed to those clearly in favor of relocating the Coyotes, and their opinion aside, when its not their money, they shouldn't really complain if a deal is done.

No, that's utterly beside the point. You should only question issues or decisions when your own money is on the line? In the business forum?

From a purely financial standpoint, I don't think anyone disagrees that the deal makes very little sense other than to avoid an even worse outcome if the team leaves.

Isn't that the question being bandied about--- how is this better than the team leaving? If it's obvious, we'd have little to argue. I'm open to the possibility that we might not have ALL the info, but based on what has been released, including COG's own economic impact citations..... is that true? Are they avoiding an even worse outcome (and how so)?

 

[OthmarAmmann]

For the life of me, I don't understand why the relocationist care what the COG is paying. Seriously. I live in the Valley, am a STH since 1997, and pay the taxes. If we as a "non-hockey" market are willing to step up and commit financially to keep the team, what do you care? It's not your MONEY.

Had your communities done so when offered the opportunity, we wouldn't even be talking about the Phoenix Coyotes.

I'm just marveling at how a municipality can take it up the butt so spectacularly.

I think the City has a far better idea what loosing the Coyotes as an anchor tenant in Westgate means than anyone on this board operating with piecemeal information, and I think they have decided to eat a crap sandwitch because its is the best of several really bad choices. Moyes' decision to throw this into bankrutpcy, while his right, really left the City with no real good options.

What they have now is the hope this can work financially, rather than the certainty that the City will take an enormous loss if the anchor tenant leaves and all the minor tenants of Westgate soon bail on the leases.

Actually, I don't think they do. If the did, they wouldn't have put themselves in this situation to begin with.

From a purely financial standpoint, I don't think anyone disagrees that the deal makes very little sense other than to avoid an even worse outcome if the team leaves.

Is that the outcome where they pay about $17 mm to $20 mm a year to cover the operating costs of the arena? Cuz that's what they've got except they're also loading up with more debt in order to hand somebody $100 mm. We've already seen that the amounts paid by the Coyotes to the CoG won't cover the debt service on the arena.

 

[aj8000]

For the life of me, I don't understand why the relocationist care what the COG is paying. Seriously. I live in the Valley, am a STH since 1997, and pay the taxes. If we as a "non-hockey" market are willing to step up and commit financially to keep the team, what do you care? It's not your MONEY.

Had your communities done so when offered the opportunity, we wouldn't even be talking about the Phoenix Coyotes.

Again, unless you live and pay property taxes in Glendale you are the same as the relocationists. I visited Glendale in 2009 and purchased a Coke and paid some tax therefore, I also should get a say right?

 

[OthmarAmmann]

I suppose we're getting to that point once again... for Part XVI I would like to suggest "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?"

 

[goyotes]

WTF is a "relocationist"? Aren't all Coyote fans "relocationists" by definition?

To answer the meaningful part of your question - because this is the BUSINESS OF HOCKEY forum, and what people pay for stuff is always related to the business aspects.

Actually, Phoenix did not "relocate" the team. No one in Phoenix sought the Coyotes. If you understand what happened, Burke bought the team looking to move them to the Twin Cities. He couldn't reach a deal there, and the only NHL arena at the time was in Phoenix. So, there was no campaign to steal or relocate Winnipeg's team. The new owner picked Phoenix. Phoenix didn't really pick the team.

And I get the business of hockey part. My comment was never so general as to say people can't talk about what the COG is paying. I just don't get the argument from those that want the team to leave Arizona, that somehow it is wrong that a community stepped up to ensure its team will not leave and do the best it could do to protect its investment. Read the posts. It has been part of the debate since the lease agreement was announced. If your agenda is not to seek relocation of the team, my comment surely didn't even apply to you.

 

[King Woodballs]

I suppose we're getting to that point once again... for Part XVI I would like to suggest "Brother, Can You Spare a hundred million?"

there fixed

 

[Fugu]

All I can is that if I had known that I coulda paid Biteman $170M and COG would give me $197M, I woulda bought the team as an Xmas present.

You and me both. We could have started our own Ice Brink Holdings, and had Glendale spot us the money. I hate twitter though, so you could be the designated tweeter-er

This thread is not for the thin of skin. There is a mish-mash of logic, legalese, math and emotion. Frick if it weren't for the math part I'd have this place licked.

I feel the same way about the legal cra.... errrr...... junk.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

who will do maintinance on the parking lot through 23 years

the pavement will need to be replaced at least once and the lines will need to be repainted the COG will need to pay that as well.

no idea what that will cost but add it to the growing pile

Also they need employees or electronic systems in place to take the money so that will need to be accounted

Also if it is full 50-60 times a year like people are suggesting then the price for repairs will go up substantially

1 employee per 250 cars = 22 employees (???)

hours per game = 3 1/2 (before during and after?)

min wage in arizona = 7.25 per hour (http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#Arizona)

22 x 3.5 x 7.25 = 558.25 per event

50 events = 27912.50 per year

23 years (assuming no min wage change(not likely but...)= 641 987$


60 events = 33 495 per year

23 years = 770 385$


add 3/4 of a million for the employees and with the state of the american dollar min wage can only go up substantially so we could be looking at another million dollars.

 

[Dado]

Actually, Phoenix did not "relocate" the team.

Such fine hair-splitting after all those righteous indignation posts...



Phoenix has a relocated team. All Coyotes fans are therefore practising Relocationists, while the Winnipeg folks here are only pre-Relocationists striving for an upgrade in status.

See...it's a silly pointless word game anyone can play...so how about stop calling people - any people - names and just move on with the meat of the discussion.

 

[aj8000]

The city has done preliminary work to find investors to purchase $125 million in bonds to cover the up-front payment to Hulsizer. The bonds would likely be paid over 30 years, although the terms, including annual debt payment are not yet known. Another way of helping to pay that debt could be to form a special taxing district near the arena, although that is not outlined in the agreement.

updated amortization schedule using 5%

Interest charges over life of loan just under $119,000,000 ouch

..

So 5500 spaces @ 30 years = 165,000 space rentals x $15 space = 2,475,000

243,942,881.44/2,475,000 = 98.57 events to be sold out during the year for break even.

Or to make the $8,131,429 payment, you would need to park $542,095 cars at $15 during the year.

If the interest rate is 6%

The total interest and principal payments would be $272,433,417.93 (interest of $147,433,417.93 yes higher than the original principal)

which means that they would need to fill 110 dates during the year.

Considering most of the fans said that they could not survive without the Yotes because the place would be empty. How do they expect the COG to have 50 to 60 additional non-hockey events at the Jobing??

Have I mentioned that the COG was suckered? LOL

 

[kdb209]

who will do maintinance on the parking lot through 23 years the pavement will need to be replaced at least once and the lines will need to be repainted the COG will need to pay that as well. Also if it is full 50-60 times a year like people are suggesting then the price for repairs will go up substantially

The City, of course.

 

[roccerfeller]

I've read your posts. It's all about business for you...rigghhhhtttt. I don't take issue with your opinion that the Coyotes might be better off someplace else, or that the league may be better off with the Coyotes relocating. Your opinion doesn't bother me. I've lived this Coyote situation since 1997. It is a less than ideal situation no matter your opinion about the market. What I am saying is to argue that the COG was wrong for doing this deal, or the deal shouldn't stand up, is not something an outsider should really have a say in. You have no "dog in that hunt". If the community decides to do this, its their decision. Simply point really. Didn't think it would be that controversial. Doesn't mean this is a "good" market. It just means it stays an NHL market because it did what it had to do for that to be the case.

ha, you didnt read his posts to closely then...he is not a "relocationist" in any sense of the word.... in fact he loves the AHL in Winnipeg, as do some people (not a majority of people feel this way, but thats a fact) and would rather not see an NHL team back simply because of high $$ prices replacing cheaper ones, for a top notch team.

Man honestly, I would love to see a team in Winnipeg...but even I can see this deal is ridiculous. You make a valid point - at least Gdale is doing everything they can to save the team, but I also think just like some "relocationists" are in denial about this almost being a set in stone thing, Phx fans have to be kidding if they cannot see the implications behind $100 million...you guys have community services, rough economy etc...right now, and the city has cleverly "disguised" a $100 million dollar subsidy.

Even CasualFan noted that...and he would know due to his credentials...

But as he also said, from a legal point, this deal is "legal". Thats great for you guys, but your team never turned a profit. Some of these things are hard to hear for Yotes fans...

you also gotta understand my own reasons for being Pro Winnipeg are my own...same with other people, same with both side of the fence ppl...doesnt change the fact of what will happen.

Not everyone who is Pro Winnipeg shares the same beliefs, as I have questioned things in the past, but dont be so blind to what this really is.

Its gonna go through, but I can imagine not every Phx fan is happy about it. Although a Pro Peg guy myself, I was pulling for Phx before...but this is just crazy.

I dont "hope" they move, since I am a Canadiens fan first...heck hockey for me is like the 2nd or 3rd sport I watch at any given time...

but the business dealings here really show how the world works in the backdoors. Dont fool yourself into thinking this is a "good deal"

thats just your personal interests getting in the way of what could be considered "right and wrong"

I am happy for Phx fans that this nightmare could finally be closing, and I am sad for Winnipeg fans getting their hopes up until everything was done and one (which it still quite isnt, might I add) but this 100 Million dollars to subsidize a hockey team in a market...wow...you can manage an arena just fine without a major league team there. Especially when its just not a strong market...too many other sports, yes; too many distractions. Why else do you think most Canadian NHL teams are a way of life with people?

A lot of NHL fans in Winnipeg have got used to cheering for the Yotes too...dont play into that whole "vulture" aspect either.

There are some legitimate concerns with this deal man, honestly, and it might just be harsh for you hearing the truth...

Personally, as an annoymous individual over the internet, I wish you luck as a fan, but I am sorry to see something like this going un-noticed.

Maybe the right thing to do is try to lure the NHL back once the CoG gets their priorities in order getting rid of their debt.

I guarantee most Winnipeggers would not be too pleased with TNSE vying for an NHL team if they were in debt in all their dealings...but actions are louder than words, and they are a true professional hockey/arena management team.


So, good luck to you and other Phx fans. Sorry there isnt enough time to get more commitment from MH not to bend over an already bent over city of 200k.

We all will move on if the Yotes stay put, dont worry haha but the business aspect of it is genuinely intriguing...

edit: and the broken sounding sentences are in part to a nasty nasty flu I have right now...but please understand my point: objectively this lease is only hurting the hard working ppl who voted their government in power in the first to WATCH over their tax money, not use some crazy spin like its actually a good thing. This is the subliminal context that is also being debated behind the deal, is it really good for Glendale financially? or is Cotton Candy actually all fluff and bad for your health....?

and thats the...erm..."100 million dollar question"

 

[OthmarAmmann]

updated amortization schedule using 5%

Interest charges over life of loan just under $119,000,000 ouch

Note that the 30 year Treasury is 4.41%, so the rate that they get is likely to be higher than 5%.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

The City, of course.

it was rhetorical

see update for employee breakdown

 

[Fourier]

I've been pretty much off line since Thursday, so seeing what has happened all I can say is Yikes!!!

 

[AllByDesign]

I've read your posts. It's all about business for you...rigghhhhtttt. I don't take issue with your opinion that the Coyotes might be better off someplace else, or that the league may be better off with the Coyotes relocating. Your opinion doesn't bother me. I've lived this Coyote situation since 1997. It is a less than ideal situation no matter your opinion about the market. What I am saying is to argue that the COG was wrong for doing this deal, or the deal shouldn't stand up, is not something an outsider should really have a say in. You have no "dog in that hunt". If the community decides to do this, its their decision. Simply point really. Didn't think it would be that controversial. Doesn't mean this is a "good" market. It just means it stays an NHL market because it did what it had to do for that to be the case.

Dude... can I call you dude? Dude... read back further.... read more. Follow slowly.. I... don't... want.... the.... Coyote's... to .... RELOCATE.

If you care for my opinions you can always PM me. Don't look at the side bar to see my City location to make your judgements.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I've been pretty much off line since Thursday, so seeing what has happened all I can say is Yikes!!!

ya **** has really hit the fan...

and during exam week too!

 

[Wham City]

Phoenix has a relocated team. All Coyotes fans are therefore practising Relocationists, while the Winnipeg folks here are only pre-Relocationists striving for an upgrade in status.

ONE OF US, ONE OF US, GOOBLE GOBBLE....

 

[AllByDesign]

I feel the same way about the legal cra.... errrr...... junk.

Oh yeah... that part for me to... wait err.. what does that leave me left with?

 

[aj8000]

Note that the 30 year Treasury is 4.41%, so the rate that they get is likely to be higher than 5%.

I know; however, I used the lower rate sice it was brought up by another poster. if you check my previous posts you can see I had referenced a 23 year bond from Glendale the sold with an effective rate of 6.766%. I also ran the numbers 6% to show how much worse it could get.

 

[Dado]

I know; however, I used the lower rate sice it was brought up by another poster.

Hey, don't look at me, I picked 5% because it's a round number and highly unlikely to be worse than the actual number (ie, can't claim it's a pessimistic number).

No other reason.

Perfectly happy to go with 6% or 7%.

I also ran the numbers 6% to show how much worse it could get.

Ballpark "planning" number is that every 1%-point increase implies $200/spot/year in additional revenue.

 

[aj8000]

Hey, don't look at me, I picked 5% because it's a round number and highly unlikely to be worse than the actual number (ie, can't claim it's a pessimistic number).

Seemed like a good starting point. if I used 6 or 7% at first I would be accused of inflating the interest rate since I am from Winnipeg.

Actually, I am Ok with the Yotes saying, I just need to get Glendale to pay me 100,000,000 to relocate my firm from Winnipeg to Glendale.

Writing the proposal at the moment.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Seemed like a good starting point. if I used 6 or 7% at first I would be accused of inflating the interest rate since I am from Winnipeg.

Actually, I am Ok with the Yotes saying, I just need to get Glendale to pay me 100,000,000 to relocate my firm from Winnipeg to Glendale.
Writing the proposal at the moment.

the question is...

Do you have parking rights!?

​

 

[aj8000]

the question is...

Do you have parking rights!?

​

No but I plan on giving the COG 50% of my profits for every unit sold to a resident of Arizona and call it Glendale Corp (Don't forget to click the link)